377 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Gisle Aune wrote...

Getting friendship is not always by doing the right thing.

The keeper is to be blamed IMO, since she took the blow for Merrill, when we could have just fought it like another boss creature, since we fight at least 2 other of those demons in the game.

I keep hearing this, but there's no proof of that. For all you know, the Pride needs to possess something first before it can be fought. And the last time Merrill went up against a Pride Demon, she gave and in tried to kill Hawke.

Everyone gives in. The only person who doesn't is Anders. It's essentially mandatory so we can have a mini-quest where the companion apologizes for giving in to the respective demon. I personally find it OOC for some of the characters involved, and I only use rivals like Fenris and Isabella because it loses immersion to see characters like Aveline or Varric betray me regardless of what their status is.

TMA LIVE wrote...

1) It's her damgerous ambition which you support. If she died. "shurgs". That's what you want. Yet you supported the thing that got her killed, if that happened.

You mean, the same way that Merrill supports the dangerous ambitions of Hawke every time he brings her along on a dangerous mission, like when he wants to go into the Deep Roads so he can get rich?

TMA LIVE wrote...

2) Hawke made a choice because the Keeper gave him the right to do it. It was given to him to do what he thought was right. You saying it's fair to just give it to Merrill because she's saying "GIVE ME GIVE ME!"?

Because Merrill specifically asked for the tool, and Marethari was supposed to hand it to Merrill according to their rules.

The Baconer wrote...

And now we have Merrill apologists. Marvelous.

I hear this every time someone doesn't think Loghain is a black-hat wearing villain or argues that Morrigan isn't evil incarnate. Why does a different opinion mean an apologist to you?

[jlb524]

Badpie wrote...

I see her actions as selfish personally. She wants to help, yes but not because she actually cares what's best for the clan. She wants to help so the clan will respect and appreciate her. That was what I got from her. That she wanted to prove them all wrong so that one day they would say "you're right, Merrill and thank you. You were right all along. What would we do without you? You truly are a hero to the Dalish."

I think I agree with part of this and this probably is part of what motivates her.  I'm not sure she's the type that wants the spotlight, though.  It would be more like proving to herself she's worthy.

I see it as she wants to help "the elves" in the abstract but not her particular clan or particular elves.  She's lived a secluded life (until moving to Kirkwall) and would have no clue on how to go about improving the lives of actual people. 

Badpie wrote...
BTW, J.  Your Hawke is smokin.  

Thanks! 

[Sherbet Lemon]

Merrill the Heartless...

I adore Merrill!  She's so squishable! 

I swing back and forth on the pendulum as to who is more at fault.  Some days I think Merrill, some days I think not.  I don't have such an opinion today, but I really think some people misinterpreting are Keeper Marethari.  You can't look at this situation from a solely Western perspective or even Hawke's perspective.  You have to look at it from the Dalish perspective.  In Dalish culture, the youth are everything.  Literally.  The elves once had a glorious empire (or so they believe), and filled with their own lore. This past is gone.  Old magics, old books, all gone.  Their shared history is gone.  So they cling to what they can––BUT, not at the expense of the youth. 

See Hahren Paivel ripping Mahariel a new one  It starts about 7:34/7:35.  He essentially says, "you belong to more than just yourself" as you are a part of clan, you are a part of all Dalish.  Whether you agree or not, is not the question.  My point is essentially that it is completely within lore and characterization for the Keeper to do what she did not because she's being a busybody, but because this is Dalish culture.   Sorry, I love the Dalish origin. It's my favorite so I take ultra seriously.  Yeah, I got issues.

You are free to criticize that culture if you wish, but I think her motivations come from somewhere beyond, "oops I got influenced by a demon"  or "I'm a stubborn old lady who can't mind my own business."

EDIT: Misquote, and clarified some things.

Modifié par Village Idiot, 01 avril 2011 - 04:00 .

[The Baconer]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

And now we have Merrill apologists. Marvelous.

I hear this every time someone doesn't think Loghain is a black-hat wearing villain or argues that Morrigan isn't evil incarnate. Why does a different opinion mean an apologist to you?

You misunderstand. I don't believe we can place all the blame on either Merrill or Marathari, but apparently if someone holds the opinion that Merrill isn't blameless and might be just a little unreasonable they're objectively wrong.

[Lithuasil]

The Baconer wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

And now we have Merrill apologists. Marvelous.

I hear this every time someone doesn't think Loghain is a black-hat wearing villain or argues that Morrigan isn't evil incarnate. Why does a different opinion mean an apologist to you?

You misunderstand. I don't believe we can place all the blame on either Merrill or Marathari, but apparently if someone holds the opinion that Merrill isn't blameless and might be just a little unreasonable they're objectively wrong.

Whether she's reasonable or not, and whether her goals are, is pretty much open to debate, depending on your stance on bloodmagic and ancient elven artifacts.
But I find it hard to lay the blame for the keepers and the clans shortcomings at her feet. When someone thinks what you're doing is dangerous, and hurls himself off a bridge to prove you that crossing it can be dangerous - that's not your fault.

[LobselVith8]

The Baconer wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I hear this every time someone doesn't think Loghain is a black-hat wearing villain or argues that Morrigan isn't evil incarnate. Why does a different opinion mean an apologist to you?

You misunderstand. I don't believe we can place all the blame on either Merrill or Marathari, but apparently if someone holds the opinion that Merrill isn't blameless and might be just a little unreasonable they're objectively wrong.

But if someone supports Merrill's use of blood magic because they don't think it's inherently evil or supports her attempt to restore the Eluvian in the same way that Sten can support the Warden's venture for the Urn of Sacred Ashes, I don't see why it would be unreasonable to express it. I don't think anyone here is claiming that Merrill is perfect or never wrong, but if they share her ideological goals, I can see why they wouldn't necessarily disagree with her.

[PantheraOnca]

Merrill underestimates the risks she takes, or overestimates her capability.


OP: I don't know where the love for him comes from, but Loghain is an irredeemable @#$hole.

[Badpie]

The thing about Merrill is that you can't ignore the problems and issues she caused. And you cant' ignore her tremendous faults just because you like her. I like her too, and if I were to romance her then my Hawke would have to able to accept that MERRILL = BAD THINGS in order to love her. Which she might be able to do, but it's when people say "Merrill is just so cute and innocent and I love her" that I facepalm. Because they don't understand her character at all.

[jlb524]

The Baconer wrote...

You misunderstand. I don't believe we can place all the blame on either Merrill or Marathari, but apparently if someone holds the opinion that Merrill isn't blameless and might be just a little unreasonable they're objectively wrong.

I don't think anyone is saying that she's not blameless.  Merrill is taking a risk and knows it's dangerous but does it anyway as she feels it's worth it.  If she didn't do that, none of what happened with Marethari would have went down.

I think the difference is that some feel it wasn't worth the risk while others do.  If you do, you will sympathize with Merrill.

Badpie wrote...
Which she might be able to do, but it's when
people say "Merrill is just so cute and innocent and I love her" that I
facepalm. Because they don't understand her character at all.

I agree with this, though.

Modifié par jlb524, 01 avril 2011 - 04:35 .

[Camenae]

jlb524 wrote...

I think the difference is that some feel it wasn't worth the risk while others do.  If you do, you will sympathize with Merrill.

This.  I think that's what this whole debate boils down to.  Neither side is really going to convince the other because one either thought it was worth the risk or not.

[The Baconer]

LobselVith8 wrote...
But if someone supports Merrill's use of blood magic because they don't think it's inherently evil or supports her attempt to restore the Eluvian in the same way that Sten can support the Warden's venture for the Urn of Sacred Ashes, I don't see why it would be unreasonable to express it. I don't think anyone here is claiming that Merrill is perfect or never wrong, but if they share her ideological goals, I can see why they wouldn't necessarily disagree with her.

It would be more reasonable if we had a better idea of what the Eluvian would do in the first place. We know that they can be used for scrying, and in the case of the ancient elves, what amounts to teleporting but Merrill never explains how this would 'Save the Clan' by her words. So she gets it working, now what? She uses it to peak into Morrigan's little pocket dimension? Finds other Eluvians buried in ancient ruins that they don't know what to do with? Maybe she unlocks the secret to travelling between them. What if there are more that are corrupted like the first one? Either way, I have no reason to believe it'll benefit the clan like she implies, unless they were hoping for more relics that remain alien to them.

And then there's the spirit. I know it's easier to discuss it in hindsight, but we know that it's a being of pride, and not a benevolent entity like pre-Anders Justice or the Faith spirit that bonds with Wynne. How long does it keep stringing her along before it possesses her? Is it really helping her restore the Eluvian, or is it telling her what she wants to hear, in order to make her more susceptible to making a deal. It's pretty certain that it will screw her over eventually. Probably with something along the lines of, "With our minds working in unison we will have the power to unlock it's secrets. Oops, I was just kidding. Psyche!"

If she really wants to restore a piece of their history, couldn't she just, I don't know, polish an ancient earthen jug or something?

[Bayz]

PantheraOnca wrote...

Merrill underestimates the risks she
takes, or overestimates her capability.


OP: I don't know
where the love for him comes from, but Loghain is an irredeemable
@#$hole.

It seems to come from him being one of Ferelden liberators
apparently, never liked him or Anora one single bit, but people tend to
think that if you helped to release a country from foreign occupation,
you have the right to kill it's king (who is your best friend's son) and
install a new repressive system for them. Yeah people are scary, I know.

Badpie wrote...

The thing about Merrill is that you can't ignore the problems and issues she caused. And you cant' ignore her tremendous faults just because you like her. I like her too, and if I were to romance her then my Hawke would have to able to accept that MERRILL = BAD THINGS in order to love her. Which she might be able to do, but it's when people say "Merrill is just so cute and innocent and I love her" that I facepalm. Because they don't understand her character at all.

I'm actually more bothered by the fact that she decided is better to exterminate her own clan than aknoledge she might be wrong. Let's think about this for a minute, most of the stuff she does is technically recovering Arlathan's knoledge in theory on benefit of her own people...and then she decides to slaughter them because they are wrong.

She is a cute little thing and funny to have around but she is also a mass murderer, I know that.

[Badpie]

jlb524 wrote...

Badpie wrote...
Which she might be able to do, but it's when
people say "Merrill is just so cute and innocent and I love her" that I
facepalm. Because they don't understand her character at all.

I agree with this, though.

Right.  You can not like everything about a person and still love them.  But you should still be aware of the things that are their faults.  I'm talking about the people who swoon over Merrill because they see her as this little fluffy ball of innocent rainbows and cute rambling and nothing else.

[TMA LIVE]

The Angry One wrote...

What Merril is doing is risky, not deliberately self-destructive so that comparison fails.

Wouldn't it be better to talk her out of it without waving the item she wants in her face?

And yet every bandit and their cat ambushes the party at night wherever they go. Varric is full of ****.

And does anything happen to make her feel otherwise? Marethari and
(potentially) her clan destroy themselves out of fear. Which is what
Merril was warning against all along.

1) If what Merrill's doing could end her life, and you're just "Go Merrill GO! Keep doing the things that might kill you!" and also deals with her stabbing herself to do this:



Then yeah, it's a self-destructive path that you're supporting. She's willing to bleed and die to make a webcam work, despite whatever you might say.

2) I never waved it. If you did, I can understand why she'd hate you. But as far as I'm aware, you can't do that at all. And you can talk abou it. Hell, everyone talks to her about it. But it's "My way, or the highway" with Merrill. While with Hawke, it's "I don't like this." And Merrill says "Too bad. I'm doing it anyways".

3) Yet that only happens when you have a full party with you, or you're walking alone at night. And unless you're asking for trouble, you never go alone. Apparently, Merrill likes to go alone.

4) And Merrill was going to be betrayed by the demon anyways. It even stabbed her. it was never going to make it work, except when it wanted to shoot out. She was wrong all along, and yet refused to listen to ANYONE. And if she did, none of that would of happened.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 01 avril 2011 - 04:51 .

[jlb524]

Badpie wrote...

Right.  You can not like everything about a person and still love them.  But you should still be aware of the things that are their faults.  I'm talking about the people who swoon over Merrill because they see her as this little fluffy ball of innocent rainbows and cute rambling and nothing else.

LOL...yeah...if that's all there was to her character, she'd be the worst/most boring one around..IMO of course.

Not that I have a problem with cute, but still.

[Camenae]

TMA Live, your screenshot reminded me of a question I always wanted to ask, and I don't know if it's been answered on these forums yet:

Was blood magic the only way to get past that barrier? If so then I don't understand why the Keeper and the Dalish would be like OMFG blood magic is evil bad terrible, and then put up a barrier up the mountain that forces Merrill or SOMEONE to use blood magic. If blood magic is not the only way to get past it, then my opinion of Merrill takes another nosedive...it's one thing to say well I HAD to use it, but if you didn't HAVE to use it and still did, then I can only think that you PREFER it... - _ -

[jlb524]

Camenae wrote...

TMA Live, your screenshot reminded me of a question I always wanted to ask, and I don't know if it's been answered on these forums yet:

Was blood magic the only way to get past that barrier? If so then I don't understand why the Keeper and the Dalish would be like OMFG blood magic is evil bad terrible, and then put up a barrier up the mountain that forces Merrill or SOMEONE to use blood magic. If blood magic is not the only way to get past it, then my opinion of Merrill takes another nosedive...it's one thing to say well I HAD to use it, but if you didn't HAVE to use it and still did, then I can only think that you PREFER it... - _ -

It could be that Merrill put up the barrier with blood magic and then was the only one able to remove it...with blood magic.

[The Baconer]

Camenae wrote...

TMA Live, your screenshot reminded me of a question I always wanted to ask, and I don't know if it's been answered on these forums yet:

Was blood magic the only way to get past that barrier? If so then I don't understand why the Keeper and the Dalish would be like OMFG blood magic is evil bad terrible, and then put up a barrier up the mountain that forces Merrill or SOMEONE to use blood magic. If blood magic is not the only way to get past it, then my opinion of Merrill takes another nosedive...it's one thing to say well I HAD to use it, but if you didn't HAVE to use it and still did, then I can only think that you PREFER it... - _ -

There is another way, but it requires a large amount of Lyrium - something that she is aware of and will say if you choose the "But they don't keep helping" option. I'm certainly not going to fault her for that one.

[TMA LIVE]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Everyone gives in. The only person who doesn't is Anders. It's
essentially mandatory so we can have a mini-quest where the companion
apologizes for giving in to the respective demon. I personally find it
OOC for some of the characters involved, and I only use rivals like
Fenris and Isabella because it loses immersion to see characters like
Aveline or Varric betray me regardless of what their status is.

-------

You mean, the same way that Merrill supports the dangerous ambitions of
Hawke every time he brings her along on a dangerous mission, like when
he wants to go into the Deep Roads so he can get rich?

-------

Because Merrill specifically asked for the tool, and Marethari was supposed to hand it to Merrill according to their rules.

1) That doesn't make things better. You're just telling me that "Guess what, unless it's a player character or a possessed dude, everyone's screwed when it comes to demons."

2) Again, you're not making much of a case. As far as I'm aware, Hawke's choices can get his own friends killed. The doesn't make Hawke right. Same with Merrill. That's my point.

3) Yeah, the leader of the tribe wanted me to do what I thought was right. Saying I don't have choice after that is wrong.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 01 avril 2011 - 05:07 .

[The Angry One]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Then yeah, it's a self-destructive path that you're supporting. She's willing to bleed and die to make a webcam work, despite whatever you might say.

What?
What?
Name one time where using blood magic kills the caster.

2) I never waved it. If you did, I can understand why she'd hate you. But as far as I'm aware, you can't do that at all. And you can talk abou it. Hell, everyone talks to her about it. But it's "My way, or the highway" with Merrill. While with Hawke, it's "I don't like this." And Merrill says "Too bad. I'm doing it anyways".

And she's obligated to obey Hawke why?

3) Yet that only happens when you have a full party with you, or you're walking alone at night. And unless you're asking for trouble, you never go alone. Apparently, Merrill likes to go alone.

And? It's still a joke and a claim backed up by nothing.
Or are you going to blame Merril for the existence of bandits too?

4) And Merrill was going to be betrayed by the demon anyways. It even stabbed her. it was never going to make it work, except when it wanted to shoot out. She was wrong all along, and yet refused to listen to ANYONE. And if she did, none of that would of happened.

Of course the demon was going to betray her, that's obvious. The idea is she has to outsmart the demon before the demon outsmarts her. She knows full well dealing with them is dangerous.

[Rifneno]

TMA LIVE wrote...

She's willing to bleed and die to make a webcam work

That is the most perfect possible description of this situation.  I salute you, sir.

[LobselVith8]

The Baconer wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

But if someone supports Merrill's use of blood magic because they don't think it's inherently evil or supports her attempt to restore the Eluvian in the same way that Sten can support the Warden's venture for the Urn of Sacred Ashes, I don't see why it would be unreasonable to express it. I don't think anyone here is claiming that Merrill is perfect or never wrong, but if they share her ideological goals, I can see why they wouldn't necessarily disagree with her.

It would be more reasonable if we had a better idea of what the Eluvian would do in the first place. We know that they can be used for scrying, and in the case of the ancient elves, what amounts to teleporting but Merrill never explains how this would 'Save the Clan' by her words.

We know she extrapolated information from the shard she cleansed and from the lore she gathered (based on what David Gaider said in another thread where this issue was addressed). We're not privy to the information Merrill gathered as much as she is.

The Baconer wrote...

So she gets it working, now what? She uses it to peak into Morrigan's little pocket dimension? Finds other Eluvians buried in ancient ruins that they don't know what to do with? Maybe she unlocks the secret to travelling between them. What if there are more that are corrupted like the first one? Either way, I have no reason to believe it'll benefit the clan like she implies, unless they were hoping for more relics that remain alien to them.

Merrill clearly doesn't have that viewpoint, and since she's the one who has been personally going through the lore on the Eluvians, I'm not armed with the knowledge that she is.

The Baconer wrote...

And then there's the spirit. I know it's easier to discuss it in hindsight, but we know that it's a being of pride, and not a benevolent entity like pre-Anders Justice or the Faith spirit that bonds with Wynne. How long does it keep stringing her along before it possesses her? Is it really helping her restore the Eluvian, or is it telling her what she wants to hear, in order to make her more susceptible to making a deal. It's pretty certain that it will screw her over eventually. Probably with something along the lines of, "With our minds working in unison we will have the power to unlock it's secrets. Oops, I was just kidding. Psyche!"

We have no idea what the first meeting between Merrill and Audacity pertained to, aside from the fact that it lead to her knowledge of blood magic to cleanse the Eluvian. The truth could be that it was focused on going after Keeper Marethari all along. I suppose we'll never really know.

The Baconer wrote...

If she really wants to restore a piece of their history, couldn't she just, I don't know, polish an ancient earthen jug or something?

As opposed to restoring a two thousand year old piece of technology that could answer untold secrets about the ancient elves?

Bayz wrote...

I'm actually more bothered by the fact that she decided is better to exterminate her own clan than aknoledge she might be wrong.

She gives disapproval for blaming her blood magic for the actions of an adult woman who made her own choices.

Bayz wrote...

Let's think about this for a minute, most of the stuff she does is technically recovering Arlathan's knoledge in theory on benefit of her own people...and then she decides to slaughter them because they are wrong.

You mean Hawke and Merrill decide that it's better to act in self-defense than let themsleves be murdered?

[The Angry One]

Rifneno wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

She's willing to bleed and die to make a webcam work

That is the most perfect possible description of this situation.  I salute you, sir.

You too. Name one time where blood magic kills the caster or shut the hell up.
God.

[TMA LIVE]

Camenae wrote...

TMA Live, your screenshot reminded me of a question I always wanted to ask, and I don't know if it's been answered on these forums yet:

Was blood magic the only way to get past that barrier? If so then I don't understand why the Keeper and the Dalish would be like OMFG blood magic is evil bad terrible, and then put up a barrier up the mountain that forces Merrill or SOMEONE to use blood magic. If blood magic is not the only way to get past it, then my opinion of Merrill takes another nosedive...it's one thing to say well I HAD to use it, but if you didn't HAVE to use it and still did, then I can only think that you PREFER it... - _ -

I honestly don't know. To be honest, I need another playthrough to give a real answer for that. Mainly because I don't even know what the barrier was, or who put it there, or what is needed to take something like that down, etc.