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[TMA LIVE]

The Angry One wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

She's willing to bleed and die to make a webcam work

That is the most perfect possible description of this situation.  I salute you, sir.

You too. Name one time where blood magic kills the caster or shut the hell up.
God.

Turns into a demon? A lot. Dying just means someone kills you in the end. Which is what Hawke was for. So yeah, killed the caster in the end. Lots of examples for that. And gameplay wise, if you don't drain someone's blood, doesn't your character risk running out of HP and dying? Lore wise, i imagine bleeding to death is possible. it is your blood.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 01 avril 2011 - 05:08 .

[cglasgow]

Bayz wrote...

I'm actually more bothered by the fact that she decided is better to exterminate her own clan than aknoledge she might be wrong. Let's think about this for a minute, most of the stuff she does is technically recovering Arlathan's knoledge in theory on benefit of her own people...and then she decides to slaughter them because they are wrong.

... seriously, what?

The 'slaughter the clan' scene happens for one reason only; the clan is trying to kill the party.  Merrill hardly steps out of the cave and goes 'mwahahahaha!  now you all die!'.  Instead, you step out, and unless Hawke says exactly the right dialogue option the entire clan goes lynch mob on you.

BTW, is it just me or was Marethari epically stupid here?  She went up Sundermount for the last time planning for Merrill to kill her... and yet doesn't leave behind a note saying 'I am possessed by a demon; when you find me dead, its because I asked my former First to put me down.  You know, as per the Dalish rules for what happens when a Keeper goes abomination.'   No, instead she sets Merrill up to be found standing over her corpse with her blood all over her clothes.

Seriously, woman.  The hell?  What's the point of sacrificing yourself to save Merrill from the demon if you're only setting her up to be lynched by the rest of the clan ten minutes later?  This is stupidity right up there with the last act of 'Half-Blood Prince'; seriously, what the hell was Dumbledore's plan for Snape after the war was over?  To get Snape sent to Azkaban for murdering him?  Because its not like Dumbledore is around any longer to explain 'Yeah, Snape's only shooting me because I'm dying anyway and this is a plan agreed upon by the two of us to help him be a deep-cover agent against Voldemort.'  No, instead Snape is left holding the bag with no one else who can testify for him, and even if Voldemort hadn't killed him, would likely have ended up being given the Dementor's Kiss by the Ministry.  That's a great way to repay someone who is only killing you because you asked him to.  

But I digress.

The short version is, if you're inviting someone to be the proctor of your assisted suicide, its only basic human decency to write that down somewhere, so that they don't end up freaking executed after you're dead.

And if you're confronted by a lynch mob trying to shoot you dead and refusing to listen to your explanations, you're hardly a 'mass murderer' for shooting back.

[The Baconer]

LobselVith8 wrote...

We know she extrapolated information from the shard she cleansed and from the lore she gathered (based on what David Gaider said in another thread where this issue was addressed). We're not privy to the information Merrill gathered as much as she is. (...) Merrill clearly doesn't have that viewpoint, and since she's the one
who has been personally going through the lore on the Eluvians, I'm not
armed with the knowledge that she is.

So why couldn't Merrill tell us what she learned exactly? She's not the "If I told you, you wouldn't help me!" type, I mean this isn't Anders we're talking about. And if she thought the knowledge she discovered was bad enough to warrant hiding from Hawke, maybe it's for the best she didn't restore it.

We have no idea what the first meeting between Merrill and Audacity pertained to, aside from the fact that it lead to her knowledge of blood magic to cleanse the Eluvian. The truth could be that it was focused on going after Keeper Marethari all along. I suppose we'll never really know.

Indeed.

As opposed to restoring a two thousand year old piece of technology that could answer untold secrets about the ancient elves?

Like I said, whatever they find that relates to the ancient elves would most likely have the same effect as the majority of the other relics they find, "I don't know what the **** this is, but I bet the ancient elves used it to do awesome stuff!"

[The Angry One]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Turns into a demon? A lot. Dying just means someone kills you in the end. Which is what Hawke was for. So yeah, killed the caster in the end. Lots of examples for that.

No, you said she was willing to bleed and die. As in, die from blood loss. As in, something that has never happened to a blood mage who can somehow lose whole pints of blood and carry on. Why? Who knows, it's magic.

The point is Merril isn't commiting suicide, she's taking a risk.
Becoming an abomination? That's a risk. By your logic any life-threatening venture is suicide.

And gameplay wise, if you don't drain someone's blood, doesn't your character risk running out of HP and dying?

Gameplay wise you can cast blood magic in front of 10 Templars and nobody bats an eyelid.

[Rifneno]

The Angry One wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

She's willing to bleed and die to make a webcam work

That is the most perfect possible description of this situation.  I salute you, sir.

You too. Name one time where blood magic kills the caster or shut the hell up.
God.

No.

[LobselVith8]

TMA LIVE wrote...

I honestly don't know. To be honest, I need another playthrough to give a real answer for that. Mainly because I don't even know what the barrier was, or who put it there, or what is needed to take something like that down, etc.

I don't think we're ever specifically told who put the barrier there (although I'd assume it was Marethari). Merrill called a "spirit" forth to destroy the barrier, which reminds me of how Spirit Healers calling forth spirits from the Fade to help agument their healing abilities.

[LobselVith8]

The Baconer wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We know she extrapolated information from the shard she cleansed and from the lore she gathered (based on what David Gaider said in another thread where this issue was addressed). We're not privy to the information Merrill gathered as much as she is. (...) Merrill clearly doesn't have that viewpoint, and since she's the one
who has been personally going through the lore on the Eluvians, I'm not
armed with the knowledge that she is.

So why couldn't Merrill tell us what she learned exactly? She's not the "If I told you, you wouldn't help me!" type, I mean this isn't Anders we're talking about. And if she thought the knowledge she discovered was bad enough to warrant hiding from Hawke, maybe it's for the best she didn't restore it.

Honestly, I think it's simply for the writers to prolong the mystery of the Eluvian. The Warden and Morrigan can enter the Eluvian and we still have no idea what the place "beyond this world and beyond the Fade" is.

[ObserverStatus]

If Merrill is "Heartless" I wonder if her "Nobody" will be a boss in DA3?

[Bayz]

The Angry One wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

She's willing to bleed and die to make a webcam work

That is the most perfect possible description of this situation.  I salute you, sir.

You too. Name one time where blood magic kills the caster or shut the hell up.
God.

Ahhh semantics. Ok "She is willing to sacrifice al her clan and drain them to dead to make a webcam work"

Doesn't sound any better does it?

[sphinxess]

Bayz wrote...

PantheraOnca wrote...

Merrill underestimates the risks she
takes, or overestimates her capability.


OP: I don't know
where the love for him comes from, but Loghain is an irredeemable
@#$hole.

It seems to come from him being one of Ferelden liberators
apparently, never liked him or Anora one single bit, but people tend to
think that if you helped to release a country from foreign occupation,
you have the right to kill it's king (who is your best friend's son) and
install a new repressive system for them. Yeah people are scary, I know.

Badpie wrote...

The thing about Merrill is that you can't ignore the problems and issues she caused. And you cant' ignore her tremendous faults just because you like her. I like her too, and if I were to romance her then my Hawke would have to able to accept that MERRILL = BAD THINGS in order to love her. Which she might be able to do, but it's when people say "Merrill is just so cute and innocent and I love her" that I facepalm. Because they don't understand her character at all.

I'm actually more bothered by the fact that she decided is better to exterminate her own clan than aknoledge she might be wrong. Let's think about this for a minute, most of the stuff she does is technically recovering Arlathan's knoledge in theory on benefit of her own people...and then she decides to slaughter them because they are wrong.

She is a cute little thing and funny to have around but she is also a mass murderer, I know that.

I dont get this - the Dalish attack and you are saying they should let themselves be killed? Kinda a short game.

Merrill should have left for a few more years - you get this when she complains to the keeper that the Dalish should have long ago moved on instead of staying in the same spot - she expects them to be gone when she returns to talk ro rhe demon again.

[The Angry One]

Bayz wrote...

Ahhh semantics. Ok "She is willing to sacrifice al her clan and drain them to dead to make a webcam work"

Doesn't sound any better does it?

And that happens when?

I have to really LOL at people calling Merril a murderer for defending herself against the clan who attacks her.

Okay, fine. Merril's a murderer.
... and Hawke's a mass murderer for killing all those bandits, Qunari, blood mages and everyone else who attacks her/him.

The next time you get ambushed while strolling through Kirkwall in the dark, lay down your weapons and let them kill you or you're a murderer.

[Bayz]

sphinxess wrote...

I dont get this - the Dalish attack and you are saying they should let themselves be killed? Kinda a short game.

Merrill should have left for a few more years - you get this when she complains to the keeper that the Dalish should have long ago moved on instead of staying in the same spot - she expects them to be gone when she returns to talk ro rhe demon again.

She should awaited the Dalish to go before talking with the demon. Dalish stay in places for 10+ years and then they move. She saw them still in the spot and carried away her plan, damn whoever is in between.

[The Angry One]

Bayz wrote...

She should awaited the Dalish to go before talking with the demon.

She waited 6 years

Dalish stay in places for 10+ years and then they move. She saw them still in the spot and carried away her plan, damn whoever is in between.

No they don't. They move far, far sooner. Merril flat out states they should've left.  Marethari was keeping them there.

[TMA LIVE]

The Angry One wrote...
What?
What?
Name one time where using blood magic kills the caster.

----

And she's obligated to obey Hawke why?

---


And? It's still a joke and a claim backed up by nothing.
Or are you going to blame Merril for the existence of bandits too?

---


Of course the demon was going to betray her, that's obvious. The
idea is she has to outsmart the demon before the demon outsmarts her.
She knows full well dealing with them is dangerous.

1) They die when getting possess and then someone kills them. That's more of what I'm worried about. Killing Merrill because she didn't know what she was doing. There's also the case of Summoning demons, who turn on you. That happened at Warden's Keep.

Beyond that, I'm not talking about Bloodmagic.

2) She's obligated to maybe think "You know. After 30 people who know more stuff about this subject then me says "This is bad", I might consider they might be right.

After all, would you want me to say "Too bad, I think your opinion is wrong. I know what I'm talking about" with you all day? Or would you rather I might say, "Hey, you got a point there!" because hey, you might be right?

3) I can blame fighting bandits because she didn't get a lie. And as far as I'm aware, it's not a joke. If it was, Varric wouldn't bring it up that she shouldn't be walking around. Since that alone means he knows more then he should.

4) And how good is Merrill when it comes to outsmarting people? Doesn't she wish she was Hawke when it comes to this?

[LobselVith8]

TMA LIVE wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Everyone gives in. The only person who doesn't is Anders. It's essentially mandatory so we can have a mini-quest where the companion apologizes for giving in to the respective demon. I personally find it OOC for some of the characters involved, and I only use rivals like Fenris and Isabella because it loses immersion to see characters like Aveline or Varric betray me regardless of what their status is.

1) That doesn't make things better. You're just telling me that "Guess what, unless it's a player character or a possessed dude, everyone's screwed when it comes to demons."

I guess it's under the same guideline as "my apostate is going to use magic in the Gallows, in front of the templars and the city guard, but I'm certain no one will arrest me over it."

TMA LIVE wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean, the same way that Merrill supports the dangerous ambitions of Hawke every time he brings her along on a dangerous mission, like when he wants to go into the Deep Roads so he can get rich?

2) Again, you're not making much of a case. As far as I'm aware, Hawke's choices can get his own friends killed. The doesn't make Hawke right. Same with Merrill. That's my point.

Merrill wants to restore an ancient piece of elven technology she believes will benefit her people, and she asks for Hawke's aid towards this goal. Whether you think it's a worthwhile ambition is a matter of opinion, I suppose.

TMA LIVE wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because Merrill specifically asked for the tool, and Marethari was supposed to hand it to Merrill according to their rules.

3) Yeah, the leader of the tribe wanted me to do what I thought was right. Saying I don't have choice after that is wrong.

Addressing that it's pretty much against the rules is what people are doing. Merrill asked for the tool, and by the law of her people, it's supposed to be handed to her, not to Hawke.

[TMA LIVE]

The Angry One wrote...

No, you said she was willing to bleed and die.

I think you're misunderstanding. Bleed means "cutting yourself for bloodmagic", and die means "Willing to risk getting possessed by a demon, which will lead to death by Hawke". That's what I meant. Not suicide, though I do think using too much of your blood could kill you. Since guess that, that's real life.

[The Angry One]

TMA LIVE wrote...

1) They die when getting possess and then someone kills them. That's more of what I'm worried about. Killing Merrill because she didn't know what she was doing. There's also the case of Summoning demons, who turn on you. That happened at Warden's Keep.

You assume she doesn't know what she's doing.

Beyond that, I'm not talking about Bloodmagic.

You said bleed and die. Don't backpeddle because I caught you out.

2) She's obligated to maybe think "You know. After 30 people who know more stuff about this subject then me says "This is bad", I might consider they might be right.

Marethari blatantly does not know more, she is ignorant of important elven history and fell for the demon's manipulations.

After all, would you want me to say "Too bad, I think your opinion is wrong. I know what I'm talking about" with you all day? Or would you rather I might say, "Hey, you got a point there!" because hey, you might be right?

Why, because a couple of other people say she's wrong out of fear?
That should stop her from recovering important technology?

3) I can blame fighting bandits because she didn't get a lie. And as far as I'm aware, it's not a joke. If it was, Varric wouldn't bring it up that she shouldn't be walking around. Since that alone means he knows more then he should.

It brings up that he should mind his own business, really.

4) And how good is Merrill when it comes to outsmarting people? Doesn't she wish she was Hawke when it comes to this?

Again, why are you assuming that Merril is naive when this is never demonstrated? 

[TMA LIVE]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Addressing that it's pretty much against the rules is what people are doing. Merrill asked for the tool, and by the law of her people, it's supposed to be handed to her, not to Hawke.

And Hawke isn't an elf. He's not under that law.

[The Angry One]

TMA LIVE wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Addressing that it's pretty much against the rules is what people are doing. Merrill asked for the tool, and by the law of her people, it's supposed to be handed to her, not to Hawke.

And Hawke isn't an elf. He's not under that law.

I'm glad you endorse the usage of technicalities to break contracts.
But clearly Merril is the monster here while the people who cheat, lie and make assumptions out of fear know what's best.

[Camenae]

PurebredCorn wrote...

embert1ger wrote...

Does anyone else find it messed up that Merril would rather see her whole clan slaughtered than admit she was wrong and leave peacefully?

Seriously, killing her entire clan gives +10 friendship while leaving them peacefully gives +15 rivalry.  At this point, I'm done trying to appease her stubborn delusions to gain her friendship.  I'm begging to supsect she's been possessed this whole time.

I have to admit, as charming as Merrill is I have the hardest time understanding her attitude and behavior.

Wow, I didn't know this, because usually by the time I get to this quest I have her maxed either way.  But you guys are right, that is really messed up...

[Bayz]

The Angry One wrote...

Bayz wrote...

Ahhh semantics. Ok "She is willing to sacrifice al her clan and drain them to dead to make a webcam work"

Doesn't sound any better does it?

And that happens when?

I have to really LOL at people calling Merril a murderer for defending herself against the clan who attacks her.

Okay, fine. Merril's a murderer.
... and Hawke's a mass murderer for killing all those bandits, Qunari, blood mages and everyone else who attacks her/him.

The next time you get ambushed while strolling through Kirkwall in the dark, lay down your weapons and let them kill you or you're a murderer.

Everyone asks her to rethink one time and another. And she tells everyone to shove off bcause she is going to fix the Eluvian no matter what. She rather fixed the Eluvian for 3)???? - 4)Profit and killed her clan in the process than listen to anyone and leave it be (let's remember this Eluvian already tainted one hunter from her clan into a darkspawn and killed\\forced to becom gray warden another) but she wouldn't care. Is it really that hard to understand why her clan wouldn't like to see the Eluvian repaired or that there are consecuences?

Add to this that their Keeper died in order to protect her...

If you agree with her, cool, just hope my life never depends on your decisions.

[The Angry One]

Look at it this way. +10 friendship is because Hawke defended her against her clan's attack.
This isn't "hey thanks for killing my clan!" it's "I appreciate that you defended me.

The rivalry is because the only way to get the clan to back off is to basically say "Merril's a stupid, stupid blood mage. I'll take care of her and get her the help she needs."
So yes that'll generate rivalry and because Merril isn't a meta-gamer she doesn't know that's the only way that the clan won't attack.

[Bayz]

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

[quote]Bayz wrote...

She should awaited the Dalish to go before talking with the demon.[/quote]

She waited 6 years

[quote]Dalish stay in places for 10+ years and then they move. She saw them still in the spot and carried away her plan, damn whoever is in between.[/quote]

No they don't. They move far, far sooner. Merril flat out states they should've left.  Marethari was keeping them there.

[/quote]

Then wait more or don't fix it.

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

Look at it this way. +10 friendship
is because Hawke defended her against her clan's attack.
This isn't
"hey thanks for killing my clan!" it's "I appreciate that you defended
me.

The rivalry is because the only way to get the clan to back
off is to basically say "Merril's a stupid, stupid blood mage. I'll take
care of her and get her the help she needs."
So yes that'll generate
rivalry and because Merril isn't a meta-gamer she doesn't know that's
the only way that the clan won't attack.[/quote]
[/quote]

I  know and I defended her. But that was because my Hawke genuinely was a mass murderer (well kinda he was looking towards confllict with the elves)

[quote]The Angry One wrote...


The rivalry is because the only way to get the clan to back
off is to basically say "Merril's a stupid, stupid blood mage. I'll take
care of her and get her the help she needs."

So yes that'll generate
rivalry and because Merril isn't a meta-gamer she doesn't know that's
the only way that the clan won't attack.[/quote]

She couldn't have assumed obviously because nobody told her how bad the idea was...severral times during several years. And is not like she actually experienced what happens when you mess with one before while she was in Ferelden....

Modifié par Bayz, 01 avril 2011 - 05:41 .

[The Angry One]

Bayz wrote...

Everyone asks her to rethink one time and another. And she tells everyone to shove off bcause she is going to fix the Eluvian no matter what. She rather fixed the Eluvian for 3)???? - 4)Profit and killed her clan in the process than listen to anyone and leave it be (let's remember this Eluvian already tainted one hunter from her clan into a darkspawn and killedforced to becom gray warden another) but she wouldn't care. Is it really that hard to understand why her clan wouldn't like to see the Eluvian repaired or that there are consecuences?

So what? Tainting people wasn't the Eluvian's original function and it doesn't do that anymore.
Her clan is telling her to stop based on fear and ignorance. If someone trips into a garbage chute leading to a blast furnace and dies, does that make the blast furnace inherently evil?

Add to this that their Keeper died in order to protect her...

Merril is not responsible for Marethari's impulsive jump to conclusions.

If you agree with her, cool, just hope my life never depends on your decisions.

I suppose you'd depend on Marethari then? A woman who kept her clan parked for 7 years (inherently dangerous, humans could've raised an army and forcibly ejected them) and became an abomination without informing her clan or making contingency plans.