377 réponses à ce sujet

[Mnemnosyne]

Why should she wait for them to move when, for some reason unknown to her, they aren't moving on as they should have years ago? I've seen nothing that backs up your claim that dalish stay in places for 10+ years, indeed from all my interactions it seems unusual for any clan of dalish to stay in one place for more than one year.

Merrill is surprised that the clan has not moved on after six years, and apparently the only reason they have not is because Marethari is staying specifically to prevent Merrill from doing what she has chosen to do.

Whatever Merrill's choices, the death of the clan can be laid squarely upon Marethari - and themselves, for that matter, for being stupid enough to attack the Champion - as Varric says, 'messing with us is suicide.'

As cglasgow said, the fact that she informs no one of her 'become an abomination' plan is inexcusable, because she should know that no matter how the encounter turns out in the cave, some or all of her clan have a high probability of being killed if they are not warned. She knows (or should know) them well enough to realize some of them will ignore their own safety in order to obtain revenge on those they believe killed their Keeper, so even if Merrill and Hawke kill her after she gets herself possessed, she has every reason to believe that at least some of the clan will get themselves killed trying to kill them, in revenge. On the other hand, if Merrill and Hawke were to fail to kill her as an abomination, then her clan is going to be the very first group that gets destroyed on the demon's rampage.

If, when she headed up the mountain, she had told the rest of the clan to depart immediately and not look back, then she might have been considered to be acting slightly responsibly. Just a little. Even then, keeping the clan in the same place for seven years was a danger in itself, for the very reasons the Dalish continually move on. Some of the ambient dialogue in Kirkwall already has humans questioning what's going on with the Dalish and thinking it's unacceptable that they seem to be setting up there permanently. If it hadn't been for the Qunari troubles, they wouldn't have been allowed to stay even as long as they did.

Of course, the main place where Marethari was wrong was in refusing to try to restore the mirror at all. It seems clear from some of Merrill's comments that Marethari had means to restore the mirror that would never have involved the demon in the first place. The only reason Merrill turned to the demon was because Marethari refused to even consider trying to restore the mirror. She wanted instead to destroy a priceless piece of elven culture and history, the very thing Keepers are supposed to recover and protect.

Marethari fails at being a Keeper in every sense of it. She fails to protect her clan, intentionally putting them in grave danger in various ways. She fails to seek out and restore ancient elven knowledge and history. Just like Zathrian put his need for revenge above the safety of his clan (unless the Warden talks him down), Marethari puts her need to be right and her twisted desire to 'protect' Merrill above both of the primary jobs of a Keeper - both the safety of her clan and recovering elven knowledge.

[The Angry One]

Bayz wrote...

Then wait more or don't fix it.

Oh give me a break, so now Merril is obligated to wait while Marethari deliberatley compromises the safety of the clan she's in charge on?
But it's still Merril's fault? Laughable.

[TMA LIVE]

The Angry One wrote...

You assume she doesn't know what she's doing.

---

You said bleed and die. Don't backpeddle because I caught you out.

---

Marethari blatantly does not know more, she is ignorant of important elven history and fell for the demon's manipulations.

---


Why, because a couple of other people say she's wrong out of fear?
That should stop her from recovering important technology?

---

It brings up that he should mind his own business, really.

---

Again, why are you assuming that Merril is naive when this is never demonstrated? 

1) And you assume she does. But I bet I got more proof of her chances then a success.

2) No, I think you misunderstood. I wrong a post about it above.

3) Marethari taught everything Merrill knows. And the demon taught the other stuff. Plus, Marethari knows about dealing with demons based on her experience with that Elf Mage. So whatever Merrill knows more of it came from the demon that was trying to possess her. And whatever Merrill knows ingeneral came from her teacher.

4) Maybe they're saying she's wrong out of experience and knowledge? And the fear comes from them caring about her? Also, isn't she kind of wrong about the Mirror? I've heard it's not what she claims it is by Gaider. (haven't confirmed it, but someone said that on the Character Room. Take that for what it is.)

5) Wow, that sounds rude.

6) Give me link to something that proves Merrill studied something that makes her prepared, and knows what she's doing, that didn't come from the demon that was going to possess her. If you can't, you're saying "I BELIEVE. Why don't you?". Because from what I've seen, it's mostly "I know better, because... What do they know?" that Merrill says. I haven't seen anything to convince me she knows what she's doing. Instead I've seen lots of examples of her not knowing what's what. Even if it's as simple as "Are we together?".

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 01 avril 2011 - 05:46 .

[Camenae]

I personally don't agree with what Merrill was doing, but I don't think she should have waited longer for the clan to leave. It's fairly clear that Marethari was keeping the clan there for the sole reason to wait Merrill out. So Merrill could have waited 20-30 years more and it won't matter, Marethari will still be there.

[The Angry One]

TMA LIVE wrote...

1) And you assume she does. But I bet I got more proof of her chances then a success.

No, I'm saying that she deserves a shot at it. The risk is hers to take.

2) No, I think you misunderstood. I wrong a post about it above.

Summoning demons or whatever is not a guarantee of death.
Being willing to accept the risk of death in an attempt to achieve your goals is not the same as "bleeding and dying"

3)
Marethari taught everything Merrill knows. And the demon taught the
other stuff. Plus, Marethari knows about dealing with demons based on
her experience with that Elf Mage. So whatever Merrill knows more of it
came from the demon that was trying to possess her. And whatever Merrill
knows ingeneral came from her teacher.

Merril has done
research independant of her since breaking away, and again, it's
Marethari who becomes the abomination because she believed what the
demon told her.

4) Maybe they're saying she's wrong out of
experience and knowledge?

You mean like Pol, who's "experience and knowledge" led him to run away from Merril for no reason right into a giant spider thing?

And the fear comes from them caring about her?
Also, isn't she kind of wrong about the Mirror? I've heard it's not
what she claims it is by Gaider. (haven't confirmed it, but someone said
that on the Character Room. Take that for what it is.)

How is she wrong? She states she doesn't know it's exact function and that it was used as a communication device, which is true.
What matters to Merril is that it's lost elven technology, lost history. You know, what the Dalish claim to recover.

5) Wow, that sounds rude.

Why? Does he babysit every member of the party?
Maybe he should tell off Isabela for getting drunk half naked while in a bar full of rowdy men.

6)
Give me link to something that proves Merrill studied something that
makes her prepared, and knows what she's doing, that didn't come from
the demon that was going to possess her. If you can't, you're saying
"I BELIEVE. Why don't you?". Because from what I've seen, it's mostly "I
know better, because... What do they know?" that Merrill says. I
haven't seen anything to convince me she knows what she's doing. Instead
I've seen lots of examples of her not knowing what's what.

The examples are in the game. She knows the nature of spirits better than Anders. She's prepared to have Hawke deal with her if the worst happens.
You on the other hand have examples by praising Marethari, the one who becomes an abomination.

[Bayz]

You assume Marethari would have stay there much more even if her clans safety was compromised (which didn't seem to be evident, may I be blind)

Koyasha wrote...

Whatever Merrill's choices, the death of
the clan can be laid squarely upon Marethari - and themselves, for that
matter, for being stupid enough to attack the Champion - as Varric says,
'messing with us is suicide.'

I agree to some extempt extrapolating this. If Marethani would haven't allowed Merril to keep the Eluvian, nothing of this would have happened.

Koyasha wrote...
As cglasgow said, the fact that
she informs no one of her 'become an abomination' plan is inexcusable,
because she should know that no matter how the encounter turns out in
the cave, some or all of her clan have a high probability of being
killed if they are not warned. She knows (or should know) them well
enough to realize some of them will ignore their own safety in order to
obtain revenge on those they believe killed their Keeper, so even if
Merrill and Hawke kill her after she gets herself possessed, she has
every reason to believe that at least some of the clan will get
themselves killed trying to kill them, in revenge. On the other hand,
if Merrill and Hawke were to fail to kill her as an abomination, then
her clan is going to be the very first group that gets destroyed on the
demon's rampage.

Is not like Marethari had carefully thought to become and abomination and die...

Koyasha wrote...
If, when she headed up the mountain, she had
told the rest of the clan to depart immediately and not look back, then
she might have been considered to be acting slightly responsibly. Just a
little. Even then, keeping the clan in the same place for seven years
was a danger in itself, for the very reasons the Dalish continually move
on. Some of the ambient dialogue in Kirkwall already has humans
questioning what's going on with the Dalish and thinking it's
unacceptable that they seem to be setting up there permanently. If it
hadn't been for the Qunari troubles, they wouldn't have been allowed to
stay even as long as they did.

Yeah because there are a lot of clans without keepers apparently on lore...it is my understanding at least that the clans need a keeper, without Marethari they needed Merril, who wasn't  exactly loved by the clan.

Koyasha wrote...
Of course, the main place where
Marethari was wrong was in refusing to try to restore the mirror at all.
It seems clear from some of Merrill's comments that Marethari had
means to restore the mirror that would never have involved the demon in
the first place. The only reason Merrill turned to the demon was because
Marethari refused to even consider trying to restore the mirror. She
wanted instead to destroy a priceless piece of elven culture and
history, the very thing Keepers are supposed to recover and protect.

Marethari
fails at being a Keeper in every sense of it. She fails to protect her
clan, intentionally putting them in grave danger in various ways. She
fails to seek out and restore ancient elven knowledge and history. Just
like Zathrian put his need for revenge above the safety of his clan
(unless the Warden talks him down), Marethari puts her need to be right
and her twisted desire to 'protect' Merrill above both of the primary
jobs of a Keeper - both the safety of her clan and recovering elven
knowledge.

Well keeping in mind how they found the Eluvian and what happened with the hunters who found it...no is not that wrong or silly. She saw it more as a threat to her clan than as a relic because well...it tainted two of the hunters and involved demons into reorder it (who aren't known for their altruism)...I don't know but  I can agree with her.

[The Angry One]

Bayz wrote...

Is not like Marethari had carefully thought to become and abomination and die...

Yes she did, that was her whole plan to "save" Merril.

[TMA LIVE]

The Angry One wrote...

The examples are in the game. She knows the nature of spirits better than Anders. She's prepared to have Hawke deal with her if the worst happens.
You on the other hand have examples by praising Marethari, the one who becomes an abomination.

Give me a link. And not the Anders one. That's a personal opinion, since Anders disagrees. That's not proof.

And she became an abomination so Merrill wouldn't. That usually means she believe it was the only way. She took a bullet.

[The Angry One]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Give me a link.

Dialog during the quest in act 3.

And not the Anders one. That's a personal opinion, since Anders disagrees. That's not proof.

Anders disagrees.
.. and then almost murders an innocent mage for the unforgivable crime of calling him a demon.

Yeah, not proof at all.

And she became an abomination so Merrill wouldn't. That usually means she believe it was the only way. She took a bullet.

She believed, because she believed what the demon said, she jumped to conclusions.

[TMA LIVE]

The Angry One wrote...

What matters to Merril is that it's lost elven technology, lost history. You know, what the Dalish claim to recover.

Which apparently the Dalish don't want, or think it's not something to bring back from the old days.

[TMA LIVE]

The Angry One wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Give me a link.

Dialog during the quest in act 3.

No link? Why's that? Where's the proof?

[The Angry One]

TMA LIVE wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

What matters to Merril is that it's lost elven technology, lost history. You know, what the Dalish claim to recover.

Which apparently the Dalish don't want, or think it's not something to bring back from the old days.

So they're hypocrites. Merril should listen to hypocrites why?

TMA LIVE wrote...

No link? Why's that? Where's the proof?

Play the quest? I'm not asking you for links to the obvious either.
And the point about Anders stands.

[Mykel54]

So you save Merril´s life from a gruesome murder at the hands of her clan, how dares she gain friendship with you?!
/sarcasm

Modifié par Mykel54, 01 avril 2011 - 06:06 .

[The Baconer]

Koyasha wrote...
Of course, the main place where Marethari was wrong was in refusing to try to restore the mirror at all. It seems clear from some of Merrill's comments that Marethari had means to restore the mirror that would never have involved the demon in the first place. The only reason Merrill turned to the demon was because Marethari refused to even consider trying to restore the mirror. She wanted instead to destroy a priceless piece of elven culture and history, the very thing Keepers are supposed to recover and protect.

Since Marethari isn't a blood mage, no, she did not have the means to restore the mirror. Merrill said she required blood magic to remove the taint from the mirror, so it's not something they could have done normally without mounds of Lyrium, and how do you suppose they would get that? Marethari was practicing common sense by reasoning out "This object is tainted, it's already killed 1 (possibly 2) of us, and we don't really know what it would do if we restored it, best to just leave it be." Yes, preserving elven history is part of the Keeper's duty, but so is the preservation of the clan, and restoring a piece of ancient history won't mean much if the clan is killed off trying to fix it. The only reason blood magic and demons became involved is because Merrill pushed the issue.

Marethari fails at being a Keeper in every sense of it. She fails to protect her clan, intentionally putting them in grave danger in various ways. She fails to seek out and restore ancient elven knowledge and history. Just like Zathrian put his need for revenge above the safety of his clan (unless the Warden talks him down), Marethari puts her need to be right and her twisted desire to 'protect' Merrill above both of the primary jobs of a Keeper - both the safety of her clan and recovering elven knowledge.

Yes, but Merrill is equally at fault for her need to be right. She wanted the satisfaction as much as she wanted to 'save' the clan. She doesn't even know what the **** could be achieved with the Eluvian in the first place. She's also willing to endanger the lives of Hawke and her other companions on her feverish quest for vindication. Either way, Hawke and company are left battling a powerful abomination of pride.

[TMA LIVE]

The Angry One wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

What matters to Merril is that it's lost elven technology, lost history. You know, what the Dalish claim to recover.

Which apparently the Dalish don't want, or think it's not something to bring back from the old days.

So they're hypocrites. Merril should listen to hypocrites why?

TMA LIVE wrote...

No link? Why's that? Where's the proof?

Play the quest? I'm not asking you for links to the obvious either.
And the point about Anders stands.

Because those are the people she's willing to get killed for? For something they don't even want?

Justice was corrupted by Anders hate. So no it doesn't. Unless you mean about possession being bad ingeneral. Merrill on the other hand was talking about Spirits and Demons being the same. That's personal opinion.

And I can't play it till they release a patch. If you're not going to show me, then tell me word for word.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 01 avril 2011 - 06:09 .

[TMA LIVE]

The Angry One wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Give me a link.

Dialog during the quest in act 3.

And not the Anders one. That's a personal opinion, since Anders disagrees. That's not proof.

Anders disagrees.
.. and then almost murders an innocent mage for the unforgivable crime of calling him a demon.

Yeah, not proof at all.

And she became an abomination so Merrill wouldn't. That usually means she believe it was the only way. She took a bullet.

She believed, because she believed what the demon said, she jumped to conclusions.

And you believe she's wrong. I don't.

I believe her teacher got possessed, and it was because she thought it was the only way. The demon never told her that. And everything she knows, Merrill knows, except what the demon taught her. And the same kind of demon easily convinced her. Tha chances are high that she doesn't know what she's doing.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 01 avril 2011 - 06:12 .

[The Angry One]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Because those are the people she's willing to get killed for? For something they don't even want?

Again, the only people who die do so by their own actions, not Merril's or the Eluvian's.

Justice was corrupted by Anders hate. So no it doesn't. Unless you mean about possession being bad ingeneral. Merrill on the other hand was talking about Spirits and Demons being the same. That's personal opinion.

That Justice was corrupted by Anders is speculation. It's more likely Justice reacted to the situation around him - he reacts similarily to outright challenges to his nature in Awakening.

What Merril says is that spirits and demons work the same way, because they are the same type of being.
Her point is that they're equally dangerous, a point which turns out to be right.

And I can't play it till they release a patch. If you're not going to show me, then tell me word for word.

Well honestly that's your problem, I don't feel like playing that section again.

[Bayz]

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

No, I'm saying that she deserves a shot at it. The risk is hers to take.
[/quote]

Look at it with Marethari's eyes, with the twisted logic of wanting to protect the woman that is supposedd to succed her in the leaadership of the clan. Would you let
[quote]2) No, I think you misunderstood. I wrong a post about it above.[/quote]

Summoning demons or whatever is not a guarantee of death.
Being willing to accept the risk of death in an attempt to achieve your goals is not the same as "bleeding and dying"
[/quote]

Actually she did risked possession not death AFAIK. That possession would have leave to the extermination of her clan anyway is another road of speculation I am not going to take.

[quote]
Merril has done
research independant of her since breaking away, and again, it's
Marethari who becomes the abomination because she believed what the
demon told her.
[/quote]

So are we to assume that Merril has been basically sneaking into the circle taking magic tomes of demonology and became an expert in t10 years? Because AFAIK she has been researching into elven technology with the clan's own tomes (grain of salt in this though)

[quote]

You mean like Pol, who's "experience and knowledge" led him to run away from Merril for no reason right into a giant spider thing?

[/quote]

Sure because a City elf becoming Dalish hunter is way more experienced than the Keeper of the clan...

[quote]

How is she wrong? She states she doesn't know it's exact function and that it was used as a communication device, which is true.
What matters to Merril is that it's lost elven technology, lost history. You know, what the Dalish claim to recover.
[/quote]

[quote]
Yeah is really useful now to her clan now...wait :pinched:doh!
[quote]5) Wow, that sounds rude.[/quote]

Why? Does he babysit every member of the party?
Maybe he should tell off Isabela for getting drunk half naked while in a bar full of rowdy men.
[/quote]

(The real one of why I was answering lol) Noooooes she likes it. (I know...I'm happy now)

[quote]

The examples are in the game. She knows the nature of spirits better than Anders. She's prepared to have Hawke deal with her if the worst happens.
You on the other hand have examples by praising Marethari, the one who becomes an abomination.
[/quote]

Does she know? I don't really take her that much:? so I concede this point

Modifié par Bayz, 01 avril 2011 - 06:17 .

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

What matters to Merril is that it's lost elven technology, lost history. You know, what the Dalish claim to recover.

Which apparently the Dalish don't want, or think it's not something to bring back from the old days.

Marethari =/= all Dalish

[Bayz]

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

What matters to Merril is that it's lost elven technology, lost history. You know, what the Dalish claim to recover.

Which apparently the Dalish don't want, or think it's not something to bring back from the old days.

Marethari =/= all Dalish

All Dalish is a bit over fetched is not that they have any kind of unity y'know...

Marethari + Clan in this case might be of a better use...

Again keeping in mind how anal the keepers are you are probably doing them a favour:devil:

[jlb524]

Bayz wrote...

All Dalish is a bit over fetched is not that they have any kind of unity y'know...

Marethari + Clan in this case might be of a better use...

Again keeping in mind how anal the keepers are you are probably doing them a favour:devil:

As I've mentioned previoiusly, Merrill is doing what she thinks will benefit "The Dalish" as in, all Dalish present and future, and not her own clan in particular.

[AshenEndymion]

TMA LIVE wrote...

I believe her teacher got possessed, and it was because she thought it was the only way. The demon never told her that. And everything she knows, Merrill knows, except what the demon taught her. And the same kind of demon easily convinced her. Tha chances are high that she doesn't know what she's doing.

I'm not sure I believe this.  If Merrill knew everything that Marathani did, then there likely wouldn't be such a mess.

Just telling someone that something is bad, isn't telling them why it is bad.  And Marathani refused to tell Merrill why it was a bad idea to mess around with the Eluvian.  Or atleast, she refused to reiterate the reason(s) in Act one, two, and three.  Assuming she stated the reason(s) to Merrill in their argument before Merrill left the clan.

Telling someone "going across the street is dangerous" is all fine and good until they ask why.  If you cannot give them a reason beyond "because it's dangerous," then the argument is over, and you've lost.  Throwing yourself infront of a car before the person has a chance to cross the street doesn't prove that you are right.  Only that you are a moron.

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...
Merrill on the other hand was talking about Spirits and Demons being the same. That's personal opinion.

I was under the impression that this was the elven interpretation of Fade Spirits and not her personal opinion.

She tells Anders that the elves have a different way of describing the same natural phenomenon than humans do (spirits/Fade).

[The Baconer]

AshenEndemion wrote...

I'm not sure I believe this.  If Merrill knew everything that Marathani did, then there likely wouldn't be such a mess.

Just telling someone that something is bad, isn't telling them why it is bad.  And Marathani refused to tell Merrill why it was a bad idea to mess around with the Eluvian.  Or atleast, she refused to reiterate the reason(s) in Act one, two, and three.  Assuming she stated the reason(s) to Merrill in their argument before Merrill left the clan.

She does, in fact, tell her about how it has already taken lives, and as part of her Keeper training she already has plenty of reasons to consider as to why cutting deals with demons isn't the best idea. It only reinforced the fact that Merrill is quite thick. I wouldn't go as far as saying that she's objectively a moron (I personally believe she is) but I will say she is objectively thick.

[Bayz]

jlb524 wrote...
I was under the impression that this was the
elven interpretation of Fade Spirits and not her personal opinion.

She
tells Anders that the elves have a different way of describing the same
natural phenomenon than humans do (spirits/Fade).

Well so far in fluff...they are the same. Only they come from different emotions and that demons tend to be jealous of the "second creation" (last part is chantry propaganda)

jlb524 wrote...

As I've mentioned previoiusly, Merrill is doing what she thinks will benefit "The Dalish" as in, all Dalish present and future, and not her own clan in particular.

Yep fixing a mirror whose abilities are unknown even to her and that killed two of her clan mates (and that her keeper strongly opposed to study).

Modifié par Bayz, 01 avril 2011 - 06:33 .