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[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

What matters to Merril is that it's lost elven technology, lost history. You know, what the Dalish claim to recover.

Which apparently the Dalish don't want, or think it's not something to bring back from the old days.

Marethari =/= all Dalish

Well, her and the tribe.

Actually, how come Merrill can't just go to another tribe? Why leave period?

[cglasgow]

That might have worked if she'd just been Jane Average Dalish, but when you're the Keeper's First then people will wonder why the heck you're leaving your own clan and trying to join another. And the first person they'll ask, besides you, will be your old Keeper.

Given that Marethari was spreading such tales about Merrill that her entire clan thought she was somewhere between Jason Voorhees and the Antichrist, we can imagine that any other clan Merrill tried to join would not have been given a letter of recommendation, shall we say.

[TMA LIVE]

AshenEndemion wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I believe her teacher got possessed, and it was because she thought it was the only way. The demon never told her that. And everything she knows, Merrill knows, except what the demon taught her. And the same kind of demon easily convinced her. Tha chances are high that she doesn't know what she's doing.

I'm not sure I believe this.  If Merrill knew everything that Marathani did, then there likely wouldn't be such a mess.

Just telling someone that something is bad, isn't telling them why it is bad.  And Marathani refused to tell Merrill why it was a bad idea to mess around with the Eluvian.  Or atleast, she refused to reiterate the reason(s) in Act one, two, and three.  Assuming she stated the reason(s) to Merrill in their argument before Merrill left the clan.

Telling someone "going across the street is dangerous" is all fine and good until they ask why.  If you cannot give them a reason beyond "because it's dangerous," then the argument is over, and you've lost.  Throwing yourself infront of a car before the person has a chance to cross the street doesn't prove that you are right.  Only that you are a moron.

Merrill cleary was already going across the street. She fixed the mirror, and was wondering why it wasn't working when finished. That's because her Keeper had herself possessed before she would finish.

In your example, Merrill simply doesn't know that someone pushed her out of the way of a car, and was clueless about it.

[sphinxess]

TMA LIVE wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I believe her teacher got possessed, and it was because she thought it was the only way. The demon never told her that. And everything she knows, Merrill knows, except what the demon taught her. And the same kind of demon easily convinced her. Tha chances are high that she doesn't know what she's doing.

I'm not sure I believe this.  If Merrill knew everything that Marathani did, then there likely wouldn't be such a mess.

Just telling someone that something is bad, isn't telling them why it is bad.  And Marathani refused to tell Merrill why it was a bad idea to mess around with the Eluvian.  Or atleast, she refused to reiterate the reason(s) in Act one, two, and three.  Assuming she stated the reason(s) to Merrill in their argument before Merrill left the clan.

Telling someone "going across the street is dangerous" is all fine and good until they ask why.  If you cannot give them a reason beyond "because it's dangerous," then the argument is over, and you've lost.  Throwing yourself infront of a car before the person has a chance to cross the street doesn't prove that you are right.  Only that you are a moron.

Merrill cleary was already going across the street. She fixed the mirror, and was wondering why it wasn't working when finished. That's because her Keeper had herself possessed before she would finish.

In your example, Merrill simply doesn't know that someone pushed her out of the way of a car, and was clueless about it.

Well the reason was originally - the mirror is tainted leave it alone - then Merrill removed the taint.....

[Bayz]

TMA LIVE wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

What matters to Merril is that it's lost elven technology, lost history. You know, what the Dalish claim to recover.

Which apparently the Dalish don't want, or think it's not something to bring back from the old days.

Marethari =/= all Dalish

Well, her and the tribe.

Actually, how come Merrill can't just go to another tribe? Why leave period?

Am I over asuming that Merril is supposed to be Marethani's succesor?

[Curlain]

Bayz wrote...



Am I over asuming that Merril is supposed to be Marethani's succesor?

I think she was but she had been replaced by Act 3 (she mentions something about the new first enjoying Marthari's lectures)

[AshenEndymion]

TMA LIVE wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I believe her teacher got possessed, and it was because she thought it was the only way. The demon never told her that. And everything she knows, Merrill knows, except what the demon taught her. And the same kind of demon easily convinced her. Tha chances are high that she doesn't know what she's doing.

I'm not sure I believe this.  If Merrill knew everything that Marathani did, then there likely wouldn't be such a mess.

Just telling someone that something is bad, isn't telling them why it is bad.  And Marathani refused to tell Merrill why it was a bad idea to mess around with the Eluvian.  Or atleast, she refused to reiterate the reason(s) in Act one, two, and three.  Assuming she stated the reason(s) to Merrill in their argument before Merrill left the clan.

Telling someone "going across the street is dangerous" is all fine and good until they ask why.  If you cannot give them a reason beyond "because it's dangerous," then the argument is over, and you've lost.  Throwing yourself infront of a car before the person has a chance to cross the street doesn't prove that you are right.  Only that you are a moron.

Merrill cleary was already going across the street. She fixed the mirror, and was wondering why it wasn't working when finished. That's because her Keeper had herself possessed before she would finish.

In your example, Merrill simply doesn't know that someone pushed her out of the way of a car, and was clueless about it.

The demon couldn't use the Eluvian itself to possess anyone.  If it could, Morrigan
(or the Warden) would have had larger problems in Witch Hunt.

The plan was for Merrill to release the demon in exchange for fixing the Eluvian, only for the demon to possess Merrill.  That it could convince Marathani that it could use the Eluvian to possess Merrill makes me think that Marathani really has no idea what the Eluvian can do (not that Merrill does).

[jlb524]

Bayz wrote...

Yep fixing a mirror whose abilities are unknown even to her and that killed two of her clan mates (and that her keeper strongly opposed to study).

Merrill is quite aware of the risk.  She thinks it's worth it, as it is a Keeper's job to seek out lost lore/magic regardless of the potential dangers. 

I think it's worth the risk as well, considering:

1)  The elven condition in a world dominated by humans.   Elves (and elven mages) just don't have the same resources available to them...it's not like she could go to the Circle and ask for a bunch of lyrium to use instead of needing to resort to blood magic.

2)  The fact that said humans wiped out so much of elven lore and history.  Any elven relic found therefore becomes that more invaluable.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

How is Merrill is heartless? The only reason things ended having such a tragic outcome was due to the clan's own stupidity and paranoia.

[jlb524]

Filament wrote...

What I wonder is why she didn't go looking for another, intact, uncorrupted Eluvian, if she cared so much about them, like, oh, I dunno... *cough* Witch Hunt *cough*

I wonder how she would know others existed?  She just can't go walking into the Circle's library to research them like the Warden Commander did.  Morrigan stole a book from another Dalish clan concerning these mirrors...though I wonder where she heard about them from?  Flemeth, perhaps?

Filament wrote...
And why Marethari didn't tell her about the demon's supposed plan to come through the mirror to possess Merrill BEFORE taking the demon into herself.

Good question...

[TMA LIVE]

Lizardviking wrote...

How is Merrill is heartless? The only reason things ended having such a tragic outcome was due to the clan's own stupidity and paranoia.

The whole clan possibly getting killed, I believe it's their fault. Merrill triggered the event to happen by not listening since day one, but they also didn't need to try and kill Hawke and crew.

As for the Keeper, it's Merrill's. Since the Keeper only did it because she loves Merrill, and didn't want her to die. And she got herself possessed because she considered it the only option to save Merrill. And the Keeper knows demons, since she knows how to exorcise them. If she came to the concussion that this was the only way, I doubt it she was being foolish.

And Merrill simply wants Hawke with her in case she gets possessed. And she's willing to risk it in order to make a mirror work, despite not quite know everything about it. This only tells me she's determined to sacrifice herself if she has to. Not her knowledge of winning.

EDIT: i forgot to put this.

I don't think Merrill's Heartless. She's the nices and most pure hearted person in the game. I just think she's arrogant.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 01 avril 2011 - 07:18 .

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

Filament wrote...
And why Marethari didn't tell her about the demon's supposed plan to come through the mirror to possess Merrill BEFORE taking the demon into herself.

Good question...

Probably because that wouldn't stop Merrill.

[Bayz]

jlb524 wrote...

Bayz wrote...

Yep fixing a mirror whose abilities are unknown even to her and that killed two of her clan mates (and that her keeper strongly opposed to study).

Merrill is quite aware of the risk.  She thinks it's worth it, as it is a Keeper's job to seek out lost lore/magic regardless of the potential dangers. 

I think it's worth the risk as well, considering:

1)  The elven condition in a world dominated by humans.   Elves (and elven mages) just don't have the same resources available to them...it's not like she could go to the Circle and ask for a bunch of lyrium to use instead of needing to resort to blood magic.

2)  The fact that said humans wiped out so much of elven lore and history.  Any elven relic found therefore becomes that more invaluable.

1)And a device used apparently mainly for communication will actually help the elven condition in...faster Skype?

2)More than her own clan as in the people who raised her apparently...

[Kartikeya]

So I like how, in scrolling back through responses this morning, there are folks going 'Merrill is to blame for nothing!' (in those exact words in a few cases) Then someone says, 'I find this thing where Merrill bears no responsibility or fault or flaw whatsoever to be weird'. And everyone goes, 'Oh, no one is saying Merrill is flawless!'

...And then they proceed to spend three pages talking about how she's flawless.

Really okay, if you're not saying she's flawless, or that she doesn't make mistakes, then please explain what flaws you believe she has or what mistakes you think she's made?

RE: Blood magic.

Blood magic has its own spells, but was originally simply an alternative to using lyrium. Lyrium is rare and expensive. Blood is everywhere and slaves were cheap. Casting powerful spells uses them both up. This is why Isolde dies in Jowan's ritual if you go that route, and why the only alternative is lots of mages and lots of lyrium. Presumably if you're only using your own blood to fuel your magic, you run the risk of dying the same way that you run the risk of killing other people if you're using theirs. We've all at least agreed that Merrill wants to take all the consequences herself, right? That if anyone's going to die for this, it will be her. Are you really going to say if the only way to fix the Eluvian was to bleed herself dry in front of it, she wouldn't do it? Of course she would. She spends the entire game repeating that this is what she's willing to sacrifice.

I'm not sure why people are arguing that killing yourself with blood magic in game mechanics is just a game mechanic thing when the very basic idea of blood magic supports that 'someone's going to have to make a sacrifice here, and if you do enough that's going to be fatal for them or you or both'.

As far as why Marethari didn't telll Merrill about the demon's plans before stepping in? Hasn't Merrill been saying nonstop all game, again, that she is willing to die to fix the Eluvian? Marethari would rather die than watch Merrill die.

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

Bayz wrote...

Yep fixing a mirror whose abilities are unknown even to her and that killed two of her clan mates (and that her keeper strongly opposed to study).

Merrill is quite aware of the risk.  She thinks it's worth it, as it is a Keeper's job to seek out lost lore/magic regardless of the potential dangers. 

I think it's worth the risk as well, considering:

1)  The elven condition in a world dominated by humans.   Elves (and elven mages) just don't have the same resources available to them...it's not like she could go to the Circle and ask for a bunch of lyrium to use instead of needing to resort to blood magic.

2)  The fact that said humans wiped out so much of elven lore and history.  Any elven relic found therefore becomes that more invaluable.

A mirror isn't going to fix that though. Especially one that's dangerous. All we know is that it either allows you to talk to someone with another mirror, or it's a portal to beyond the fade.

I don't consider this relic worth the risk for something you want, which is gaining power. I don't think the mirror even gives the option.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 01 avril 2011 - 07:16 .

[Bayz]

Kartikeya wrote...

So I like how, in scrolling back through responses this morning, there are folks going 'Merrill is to blame for nothing!' (in those exact words in a few cases) Then someone says, 'I find this thing where Merrill bears no responsibility or fault or flaw whatsoever to be weird'. And everyone goes, 'Oh, no one is saying Merrill is flawless!'

...And then they proceed to spend three pages talking about how she's flawless.

Really okay, if you're not saying she's flawless, or that she doesn't make mistakes, then please explain what flaws you believe she has or what mistakes you think she's made?

RE: Blood magic.
 

I do not, I think her major flaw was not giving a **** about her clan in order to pursue some goals which aren't clearly going to give any results

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

TMA LIVE wrote...

The whole clan possibly getting killed, I believe it's their fault. Merrill triggered the event to happen by not listening since day one, but they also didn't need to try and kill Hawke and crew.

As for the Keeper, it's Merrill's. Since the Keeper only did it because she loves Merrill, and didn't want her to die. And she got herself possessed because she considered it the only option to save Merrill. And the Keeper knows demons, since she knows how to exorcise them. If she came to the concussion that this was the only way, I doubt it she was being foolish.

And Merrill simply wants Hawke with her in case she gets possessed. And she's willing to risk it in order to make a mirror work, despite not quite know everything about it. This only tells me she's determined to sacrifice herself if she has to. Not her knowledge of winning.

I'm thinking more about the fact that she went away to get herself possesed without telling the clan anything, that was a pretty boneheaded move.

[The Baconer]

Lizardviking wrote...

I'm thinking more about the fact that she went away to get herself possesed without telling the clan anything, that was a pretty boneheaded move.

Consdering Merrill's refusal to listen to reason for years, there was nothing left for Marethari to do but stoop down to her level and fight stupid with stupid.




(sarcasm)

Modifié par The Baconer, 01 avril 2011 - 07:22 .

[TMA LIVE]

Lizardviking wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

The whole clan possibly getting killed, I believe it's their fault. Merrill triggered the event to happen by not listening since day one, but they also didn't need to try and kill Hawke and crew.

As for the Keeper, it's Merrill's. Since the Keeper only did it because she loves Merrill, and didn't want her to die. And she got herself possessed because she considered it the only option to save Merrill. And the Keeper knows demons, since she knows how to exorcise them. If she came to the concussion that this was the only way, I doubt it she was being foolish.

And Merrill simply wants Hawke with her in case she gets possessed. And she's willing to risk it in order to make a mirror work, despite not quite know everything about it. This only tells me she's determined to sacrifice herself if she has to. Not her knowledge of winning.

I'm thinking more about the fact that she went away to get herself possesed without telling the clan anything, that was a pretty boneheaded move.

That, and apparantly running an entire clan while possessed for 3 years. Yeah, that was stupid. I'll admit that.

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Filament wrote...
And why Marethari didn't tell her about the demon's supposed plan to come through the mirror to possess Merrill BEFORE taking the demon into herself.

Good question...

Probably because that wouldn't stop Merrill.

That's a terrible reason

[Matterialize]

Bayz wrote...

I do not, I think her major flaw was not giving a **** about her clan in order to pursue some goals which aren't clearly going to give any results

But her clan (and the Dalish as a whole) are the whole reason she's doing it at all. She's trying to recover the history of her people, and "it's a Keeper's job to remember".

And what makes you think it's a fruitless endeavor?

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

jlb524 wrote...

Filament wrote...
And why Marethari didn't tell her about the demon's supposed plan to come through the mirror to possess Merrill BEFORE taking the demon into herself.

Good question...

Also this. She knew Hawke was there, so perhaps waiting and telling the truth while he is present might have been a better option.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 01 avril 2011 - 07:29 .

[The Baconer]

Matterialize wrote...
And what makes you think it's a fruitless endeavor?

As I said before, at best, they find more artifacts that they know nothing about. At worst, I dunno, we get bad stuff coming through it. It's like in ME where it's against Citadel Space law to just go around activating ever Mass Effect Accelorator you come across.