337 réponses à ce sujet

[Dubya75]

JasmoVT wrote...

Frankly I do not see a lot of wave "appearing from nowhere" I do see them leaping off of roof tops and cliffs, apearing in clusters in doorways or tunnel entrances, stealth characters suddenly unstealthing behind you, all of which is a realistic presentation of more enemies arriving on the scene.

Thank you! 

[Icy Magebane]

taine wrote...

Luke Barrett wrote...
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

This I think should be the main point of emphasis. For one, there was too much combat in DA2. Secondly, most of that combat was pointless filler (random thugs in the streets, waves of spiders or corpses, etc.). Most of them were not particularly challenging -- particularly as the game progressed. -- and began to feel repetitive.  In general, smaller set battles, less HP for everyone, and the reintroduction of being able to miss would be a good start I think. Waves are not inherently bad, but they are an artificial challenge and strip any strategy from the combat.

If devs are reading this, please do not reduce the amount of combat.  There wasn't enough combat, especially in Act 3!!!  I'm not paying money to watch an interactive movie, I'm interested in a video game, and that means killing creatures.

You seem like you already know what you're going to do with waves, so I'll just skip that part... just... don't listen to this guy.  Combat is a good thing.

And no offense to the guy that posted this...   just had to make my voice heard that I totally disagree.

[Dubya75]

Icy Magebane wrote...

taine wrote...

Luke Barrett wrote...
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

This I think should be the main point of emphasis. For one, there was too much combat in DA2. Secondly, most of that combat was pointless filler (random thugs in the streets, waves of spiders or corpses, etc.). Most of them were not particularly challenging -- particularly as the game progressed. -- and began to feel repetitive.  In general, smaller set battles, less HP for everyone, and the reintroduction of being able to miss would be a good start I think. Waves are not inherently bad, but they are an artificial challenge and strip any strategy from the combat.

If devs are reading this, please do not reduce the amount of combat.  There wasn't enough combat, especially in Act 3!!!  I'm not paying money to watch an interactive movie, I'm interested in a video game, and that means killing creatures.

You seem like you already know what you're going to do with waves, so I'll just skip that part... just... don't listen to this guy.  Combat is a good thing.

And no offense to the guy that posted this...   just had to make my voice heard that I totally disagree.

I agree! Almost as crazy an idea as not having waves of enemies.

[Matchy Pointy]

I don't hate teh waves by themselves, but they should be in every encounter, and having guy appear from nothing feels pretty weird.

[Abston82]

Its about as realistic as all of the line of sight pulling you can do to cheese DA:O if you are going to be like that about it.

[Perles75]

Icy Magebane wrote...

taine wrote...

Luke Barrett wrote...
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

This I think should be the main point of emphasis. For one, there was too much combat in DA2. Secondly, most of that combat was pointless filler (random thugs in the streets, waves of spiders or corpses, etc.). Most of them were not particularly challenging -- particularly as the game progressed. -- and began to feel repetitive.  In general, smaller set battles, less HP for everyone, and the reintroduction of being able to miss would be a good start I think. Waves are not inherently bad, but they are an artificial challenge and strip any strategy from the combat.

If devs are reading this, please do not reduce the amount of combat.  There wasn't enough combat, especially in Act 3!!!  I'm not paying money to watch an interactive movie, I'm interested in a video game, and that means killing creatures.

Oh, that's a new definition of video game...
Let's say: there are games that focus on killing creatures. RPGs shouldn't be in this category.

[The Sum of all Evil]

Icy Magebane wrote...

If devs are reading this, please do not reduce the amount of combat.  There wasn't enough combat, especially in Act 3!!!  I'm not paying money to watch an interactive movie, I'm interested in a video game, and that means killing creatures.

(highlight by me)

Not to offend you, just to voice my total disagreement with the highlighted statement!

[Cyberfrog81]

Yes, I agree, there is too much combat in DA2. It's not that the combat is bad, I quite like it. But it outstays its welcome before the 100th thug/shade slaughter.

Occasionally you can talk instead of fight, but I'd still like to see more of that. I'm fine with action, it's not that, but you really don't need to cheapen the experience so much.

[PinkShoes]

actually i dont mind the waves anymore. I mind when they appear out of nowhere and dont jump in or something. But i honnestly did have to be more tatical.

[Mezinger]

I think it's a fine idea but it's really poorly implemented, human enemies do literally appear our of no where in some cases... in others you have people jumping off roofs in full plate. So to me the question is "Does it add enough to the game to make the investment in getting it right make sense?" My opinion is I kind of doubt it... I'd rather have kill animations brought back for instance. If the use waves / add ons is used sparingly (Like DA:O, the occasional bridge encounter or boss fight) they will have less time ironing out the bugs, so I bet and hope that's what we'll see for DA3 a return to limited / appropriate use of waves.

[Kimberly Shaw]

Lord, if you want to buy a video game so you can kill creatures, there are like 100000 FPS games out there to meet your needs. Go find them and play. Egads.

[Poubo]

Icy Magebane wrote...

taine wrote...

Luke Barrett wrote...
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

This I think should be the main point of emphasis. For one, there was too much combat in DA2. Secondly, most of that combat was pointless filler (random thugs in the streets, waves of spiders or corpses, etc.). Most of them were not particularly challenging -- particularly as the game progressed. -- and began to feel repetitive.  In general, smaller set battles, less HP for everyone, and the reintroduction of being able to miss would be a good start I think. Waves are not inherently bad, but they are an artificial challenge and strip any strategy from the combat.

If devs are reading this, please do not reduce the amount of combat.  There wasn't enough combat, especially in Act 3!!!  I'm not paying money to watch an interactive movie, I'm interested in a video game, and that means killing creatures.

You seem like you already know what you're going to do with waves, so I'll just skip that part... just... don't listen to this guy.  Combat is a good thing.

And no offense to the guy that posted this...   just had to make my voice heard that I totally disagree.

for a moment there i thought the whole point of the genre this game falls in to was Role-Playing Game...

...emphasis on the ROLE-PLAYING part...

[Poubo]

JasmoVT wrote...

Frankly I do not see a lot of wave "appearing from nowhere" I do see them leaping off of roof tops and cliffs, apearing in clusters in doorways or tunnel entrances, stealth characters suddenly unstealthing behind you, all of which is a realistic presentation of more enemies arriving on the scene.

first of all, i dont recall seeing any ninjas in the game... yes we constantly see 100's if not 1000's (by the end of the game) of people in full armour coming from roofs, cliffs and even the tops of caverns... who arent jumping down from the physical roof, they just appear above you and softly land ready to fight you.

The idea of waves of enemies in itself is not a bad idea but the execution here was terrible.

I guess each to their own though, but to me, the direction Bioware are going in at the moment does not appeal to me.

[Fault Girl]

This was my only gripe about the game, I hated the fact that I was walking through Lowtown, don't mind dealing with a few nasty bandits but they kept coming.

Then you'd think it was over then more would come.

ARGH

[-BBH-Omega]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

This is why I buy Bioware games. That and most of the games are fun to play...

[Rockpopple]

I don't mind the waves. It kept the adrenaline hopping. At some points it became a ridiculous affair, like dealing with the Something Sisters in Hightown. They. Just. Kept. Coming. Again, I didn't mind, but I did feel that after slaughtering about 100 female rogues, I dunno, I should have been either given a plaque or put Kirkwall's Most Wanted List. I was hip deep in dead women and nobody seemed to care much.

But get rid of the waves that materialize out of thin air, and you've got yourself a deal.

[Kimberly Shaw]

Sort of off topic but also related to this wave problem, some fights we would have dialogue with a big bad NPC, say some Slaver Blood Mage. He would have cronies with him. We talk, we fight. Now clearly big bad NAMED Slaver Blood Mage is in charge. He has more hitpoints and is more dangerous than every one of his goons.

Currently, the wave system keeps on going long after he's been killed, which is part of the problem. I think the waves should keep coming (to a point) as long as he's alive. If I one shot him at the beginning of combat (which I shouldn't be able to do, but sometimes I can with assasinate or lucky shots) then his waves of goons should stop coming.

It's pretty stupid to have the guy dead from the first round and then have 3-4 waves of enemies appear that are in his employ. I think there needs to be some sort of check to make sure the named NPC that you are meant to fight/kill is still alive before the waves keep coming.

And also, in Act 3 of this game, we shouldn't be fighting waves of street thugs the same as Act 1 because we're the CHAMPION and have slain demon lords, high dragons and freed the city of invaders. At this point, street thugs should know it's suicide. Separate issue, but they do come in endless waves which is even more immersion breaking if we take that into context of we are the CHAMPION and have a huge reputation. Why are waves of street thugs lining up to die at this point?

[DraCZeQQ]

Well I hate all waves in DA2 because they make no sense at all ...

i pretty sure it was metioned few times but the waves would only make sense if there was someone summoning them / calling them in ...

and they should never ever appear out of thin air in locations that made absolutly no sense ... so your tactic with covering your mages in corner was completly futile ...

and even waves of shadows should be dependend on other summoning enemy, existence of some "artefact" or any mechanism that allows player to make tactical decision to prevent this summoning (even tho the summoner is hidden, is behind enemy lines) so there would be actuall choice to chop down front lines + summons ... vs. kamikadze rush through lines, taking down summoner and making the stand somewhere else ...

and not to mention LORE clearly says NO TELEPORTATION!!! yet some mages and corporal demons teleport around (srsly stop butchering lore)

[sidion77]

I think DA3 will properly find the balance for combat. I don't mind the waves because I love combat (sometimes all the dialogue or text becomes a tad boring) but I understand for many of the players that dislike constant combat, toning down the "waves" would be helpful. So as I mentioned at the start, I think Bioware is still fine tuning the combat and will get it right in DA3.
Personally I feel that the right balance will be a mix of fewer, tougher enemies that require a rotation of skills over a longer period of time focusing on conservation of health/stam and tactics, along with enemy encounter "waves" where the player has to focus on weaker, faster enemies that require crowd control, fast reflexes and intelligent skill usage.

[YourFunnyUncle]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

This just about sums up my opinions, and I would add especially that you should consider carefully when waves are appropriate. In the heat of a big battle it is fine, but being jumped by wave upon wave of bandits in the streets of Kirkwall just felt odd. It was as though the entire population of the city was some kind of bandit!

Modifié par YourFunnyUncle, 07 avril 2011 - 03:09 .

[Horus Blackheart]

use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies.

Yes please, i'd also like to add a request that magies and rogues be given a wider vrity of ablity use rather than just spaming the same uberly overpowered ones over and over again.

Example from DAO hex use I dont remember seeing a mage use a hex on the party once in 2 and a bit playthoughs. also despell magic was compleatly usless as a counter to the serabas lightning spell (the one with the masive build up) it was imposable to counter.

hit the guy no interupt, dam ok lets try dispelling om the caster nope.... crap ok,ok lets try despelling on the build up of energy... nope firget this lets try fleeing.. Result most of the party koed and thats not even mentioning the telaporting enough already! sheesh.

Modifié par Horus Blackheart, 07 avril 2011 - 03:33 .

[Revakeane]

I didn't necessarily hate the waves, but I didn't quite like them either. The inexplicable onslaught of enemy-fodder was more time-consuming and frustrating than engaging or challenging. I would prefer less, but more interesting and challenging enemies to fight. If waves are necessary, then at least don't make them appear out of nowhere (unless they're magic or whatever), that part was poorly executed in my opinion.

[Yzzid]

Yeah, please don't use waves anymore without an in-game logical justification (no, full plate templar jumping from roof DO NOT count as in game logical justification )

Undead, spiders, demons, why not. An ambush once in a while, yeah, go for it ! But having half a city beaming up each and every fight break immersion and get tiring, tedious, and do not add depth to the combat system in my opinion.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

I can see the opening of DA3 in my head now: Godbaby, all grown up, comes running up a hill with two companions. They see Morrigan and the Warden having a picnic lunch in a emerald field of mowed grass. Companion one jumps up and begins to wave spastically. Godbaby turns to him and say "Stop doing that."