337 réponses à ce sujet

[NKKKK]

Guys this was an 18 month game, the only thing you can do is convince these jackals to take a longer time in their dev cycle. But I doubt that.

[The Metalion]

Aye.  The waves, they suck.

[Merak88]

Less is more.

I don't mind that there are waves, but rather the sheer number of enemies. If a thief guild is going to ambush a single target, are they really going to bring 8+ archers, 6+ sword and boards, and 2 assassins? Really? I realize it was done to try and make the game more exciting. Or something. In my opinion, all it does is break immersion and add annoyance.

So what then is the solution? Why not make the fights smaller, yet more engaging? Have enemy mages cast fireballs that will nearly one-shot kill your party if you don't stun them. Or, have an AoE protection shield that your own mage can throw up right before the fireball lands. Have enemy assassins prioritize your own mages, and making them immune to taunt. Have enemy archers perched up on hard-to-reach ledges.

Excitement comes from having to keep close attention to the battle. Adding wave after wave of random enemies is the easy, yet ineffective way to do this.

[Azzlee]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Luke Barrett wrote...

To reiterate: when I said they will still use waves in the future I meant that they will not be removed outright. We're going to take all this information in to account going forward and hopefully that will encourage design to greatly lessen the use of this type of encounter in favor of something else.

Waves aren't the problem.  Damaging the credibility of the setting is the problem.  As implemented in DA2, waves do that.  But that's by no means a necessary consequence of waves.

DAO has waves.  The Broodmother encounter has waves.  I don't recall anyone complaining about it.

And, in answer to your initial question, one of the problems with the way waves work in DA2 is that you can't implement a tactical plan.  You can make moment-to-moment tactical decisions, but planning doesn't work because the disposition of your opposition isn't known to you (and you can't learn it even by scouting extensively).

Scouting worked wonderfully in DAO.  You could scout ahead, see what was there, and plan for it.  DA2 doesn't allow this at all.

I did forget the Broodmother fight in my original argument. However, the Broodmother fight made sense to have waves. Smack bang in the middle of the deep roads, the Darkspawn home, it would be like me running up to the queen and smacking her a few times with a baseball bat. I'm sure it would be the guards, then the police and then god knows who else I would have to deal with by doing that.

But virtually every fight was "waved". If I started a fight with a gang, in an alley, and some were on the ground, some up in a building looking down on the alley I was fighting the other gang members in, I very much doubt that they would wait for me to spank all their boys and then jump down :S

Boss fights excluded.

[BouncyFrag]

Remember when Oghren waved to you when you reunite in Awakenings? Best 'wave' evar!

[Jorrkit]

I really liked the format in Origins, especially when playing in Nightmare mode. I could scout out the battlefield with my rogue, figure out which targets needed priority, where to position my ranged characters, etc. With DA2, I felt like I couldn't really plan much of anything because I never have any idea what I'm going to be facing. It's nice that we're forced to strategize on the fly, so to speak -- after all, it's impossible to prepare for everything all the time. But it's never possible to prepare for twenty armored templars being air-dropped from the S.S. Divine Fury and going straight for Merrill in a righteous frenzy.

[Persona]

People always post ideas and do gaming companies ever listen..NO. They are going to make DA3 however they wanna make it. EA has never once listened to feedback nor will they ever. They wanted to make DA2 hack and slash and they did. DA3 will most likely be another hack and slash with recycled maps. Why cause weather you buy the game or not EA will make money regardless. And I say EA cause they own Bioware so no reason to call them Bioware anymore. Anyways EA mass produces games all the time, this one will be no diffrent. EA=Eliminating Awesome.

Modifié par Persona, 08 avril 2011 - 11:58 .

[Essalor]

There's also the issue that the enemies appear from all the directions, even from the corridors that have been cleared before. Maybe it falls into "giving a visual cue" directory but I would rather prefer the enemies appear out of thin air, but not in the corner where my magi are or from the back (again where my magi/archers are). In current state it's unrealistic and in that way kills the fun.

[Chiramu]

I think waves of enemies are fine, but they should've used these waves of enemies for the bosses.
I've found that boss fights were bloody easy compared to groups.

They need to do something with making a boss fight tougher. I played Spirit Healer and when I got aggro my Spirit Healer buff healed my Hawke back up to full health.

Although the High dragon fight was the toughest boss fight!

[orpheus333]

Personally it can be used really well and make a fight more exciting and challanging. However it should be done in context not every fight. A great example of waves used well is Act 1 The Lost Son quest it gives an impression of a holding acting and gives the encounter context.

At other times throughout the game enemies jumping in becomes boring and frustrating. Having a wave of enemies pop into a position that surrounds the party exposing your mages isn't much fun considering you have already developed threat control with warriors and rogues a minute before. Why use these strategies (i really liked the rogue threat managment abilities) when the enemy will 'game' the system and surround you anyway.

It definatly needs to be used in a contextual way (where enemies will flood through doors, from side streets etc) if you want to keep a significant amount of waves in random encounters and make it fun as it allows you to extend fights and keep the number of enemies on screen under control.

[neppakyo]

BouncyFrag wrote...

Remember when Oghren waved to you when you reunite in Awakenings? Best 'wave' evar!

Yeah! Loved that part.

Like most say, waves are ok, if used correctly, in certain situations (like the redcliff night battle)

[Begarian]

There's only one thing you really can do in this game with the waves:

Exploit the ever living hell out of them. In almost every single encounter in the entire damn game, you can initiate combat with the first group of enemies, *kite them back a room* and the subsequent waves will NEVER zone in on you until you go initiate combat with them. You can save in between waves doing this. You can defeat the most problematic (and boring) groups doing this technique. I started doing this in late Act 1 of my first play through and never looked back. It makes Nightmare mode almost as easy as Casual. Almost.

Hey, what else is one supposed to do when there's such lazy and problematic design?

[Riknas]

Don't get rid of the waves, thanks. Use them a bit more sparingly perhaps, but certainly don't remove them. Also, being more mindful of how the waves show up would be nice, keep people coming through realistic spawn points.

The waves keep things more frantic, and forces us to be on our toes in the combat. The complaints toward waves mostly consist of, "its stupid" anyway, and should not be so compelling.

Modifié par Riknas, 09 avril 2011 - 08:45 .

[Arken]

Use waves only for special levels. EVERY FIGHT DOESN'T NEED WAVE DANG IT! Just saying...

[Killer3000ad]

I guess it's more or less given that most people don't like how the waves just appear out of the blue and from all directions. WHile presenting a challenge is good, presenting it in such a broken way that gives the appearance that the enemies are subject to a whole different set of rules, really irks the living daylights out of people. It doesn't make sense for enemies to appear from behind the street you just cleared and now in perfect position to kill your mages. Throw in a couple of game-breaking assassins who are apparently subject to a shorter, uninterruptible, stealth cooldown from you and there you have it.

Modifié par Killer3000ad, 09 avril 2011 - 09:00 .

[Marionetten]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Luke Barrett wrote...

To reiterate: when I said they will still use waves in the future I meant that they will not be removed outright. We're going to take all this information in to account going forward and hopefully that will encourage design to greatly lessen the use of this type of encounter in favor of something else.

Waves aren't the problem.  Damaging the credibility of the setting is the problem.  As implemented in DA2, waves do that.  But that's by no means a necessary consequence of waves.

DAO has waves.  The Broodmother encounter has waves.  I don't recall anyone complaining about it.

And, in answer to your initial question, one of the problems with the way waves work in DA2 is that you can't implement a tactical plan.  You can make moment-to-moment tactical decisions, but planning doesn't work because the disposition of your opposition isn't known to you (and you can't learn it even by scouting extensively).

Scouting worked wonderfully in DAO.  You could scout ahead, see what was there, and plan for it.  DA2 doesn't allow this at all.

This is how I feel about the issue. A blood mage conjuring forth demons in waves makes sense. Especially if you can bash him in the face to prevent the reinforcements. Templars backflipping from rooftops to descend upon you doesn't. I don't mind wave mechanics as long as they are used in a way that makes actual sense. Save them for more specific occasions instead of using them in every single encounter. And please, make it preventable.

Modifié par Marionetten, 09 avril 2011 - 09:07 .

[HolyWarrior21]

Arken wrote...

Use waves only for special levels. EVERY FIGHT DOESN'T NEED WAVE DANG IT! Just saying...

Yep! I personally don't mind waves, but every damn time i venture into lowtown at night, no thank you!

[PanosSmirnakos]

NKKKK wrote...

Guys this was an 18 month game, the only thing you can do is convince these jackals to take a longer time in their dev cycle. But I doubt that.

I doubt that DA II was an 18 months project. I may be wrong of course, but IMO I think they had around a year to create / build the game itself and NOT the theoretical stuff like the main plot, different direction of the sequel and in general their new ideas. I mean that Dragon Age Origins was a 6-7 years project, but they spend most of that time to create a unique fantasy world, build their own graphics engine and decide what kind of a RPG is going to be. Also, you have to wait some months after the release of your new franchise to decide if it's successful enough (sales-wise), to start working a sequel. No? The framed narrative of DA II was a "clever" idea to repeat the same areas x 3 times (3 acts). I just can't believe that a company like Bioware in 18 months, as you say, can't create more unique areas / dungeons / maps for a full game than the expansion of Origins (Awakening). The waves system in battles and the hordes of enemies was one more way to make the game longer with minimum effort.

[Awildawn]

I didn't mind the waves, sometimes, but alternating them with other type of fights would have been great and, also, having skills back that could help guess/estimate where were the adversaries could be great.

[Zeevico]

Firky wrote...

But, maybe mix it up a bit. Some fights without, some with. The Redcliffe battle in Origins seemed to employ reinforcements really well, on 2 fronts.
 

Did somebody say my name?

Modifié par Zeevico, 11 avril 2011 - 09:42 .

[Mikeuicus]

I much prefered DA:O's combat of wandering into pre-set encounters, ie darkspawn around a campfire or stumbling across a battle in progress. While the wave based combat can be thrilling if used properly I think your summary sums up my feels adequately:

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

One fight in Dragon Age 2 I thought handled waves well was when you meet the Kirkwall Guards holed up in the Wounded Coast and you repel attackers (though enough time to quick save between waves would be nice). Conversely, almost every other fight where enemies materialized right where my party was standing were not well handled (<=this happened a lot).

Modifié par Mikeuicus, 11 avril 2011 - 04:43 .

[Rylor Tormtor]

Marionetten wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Luke Barrett wrote...

To reiterate: when I said they will still use waves in the future I meant that they will not be removed outright. We're going to take all this information in to account going forward and hopefully that will encourage design to greatly lessen the use of this type of encounter in favor of something else.

Waves aren't the problem.  Damaging the credibility of the setting is the problem.  As implemented in DA2, waves do that.  But that's by no means a necessary consequence of waves.

DAO has waves.  The Broodmother encounter has waves.  I don't recall anyone complaining about it.

And, in answer to your initial question, one of the problems with the way waves work in DA2 is that you can't implement a tactical plan.  You can make moment-to-moment tactical decisions, but planning doesn't work because the disposition of your opposition isn't known to you (and you can't learn it even by scouting extensively).

Scouting worked wonderfully in DAO.  You could scout ahead, see what was there, and plan for it.  DA2 doesn't allow this at all.

This is how I feel about the issue. A blood mage conjuring forth demons in waves makes sense. Especially if you can bash him in the face to prevent the reinforcements. Templars backflipping from rooftops to descend upon you doesn't. I don't mind wave mechanics as long as they are used in a way that makes actual sense. Save them for more specific occasions instead of using them in every single encounter. And please, make it preventable.

Just quoting to emphasize and make sure this doesn't get lost. While I understand the arguments in defense of SOME WAVES, I greatly prefer the way DAO did them, as opposed to the endless hordes of miscreants that inhabit Kirkwall. In addition, the summoning is fine too, except, PLEASE, please Bioware, can abominations STOP appearing out of the GROUND. You can't summon an abomination. You can turn into an abomination. You can ring an an abomination and have him hop on a bus and come over. They, however, do have corporeal bodies and as such are intrinsicly different than spirits and demons with said bodies.

[Obadiah]

Waves were fine. They just didn't need to be a part of EVERY fight.

[ValentineMSmith]

The "waves" in DA:O 1. usually (always?) made at least some sense in what they were and how they appeared and 2. were often (usually?) found in boss battles. I would define the Jarvia battle, for example, as a well-constructed battle that had a wave of reinforcements--but it made some sense.

I got really tired of the mercenary ninjas jumping out of windows etc. *every* time I fought in Kirkwall...but I'm not sure anything above has really characterized why some wavers are acceptable and others are not. Maybe it is just overuse of the mechanic...or maybe not.

[trancers3]

my list to make better rpg and not action game what dragon age 2 is

1 - no more waves on fights because that is just so laze way to make fights longer
2 - when you talk to someone dont make that all what you chose end to same conclusion
3 - can equipe team mates like did on origins
4 - more than 1 model to dungeons and rooms when you enter those
5 - if you can importan save game from previous game so there is real impact and not lame like on dragon age 2
6 - to get back origins fight style from the upper view
7 - for better love scenes i know that on america it is big taboo but on other country it is not so bad so maybe make cencored version to america and to other country same like what was it on first mass effect with good taste
 

Modifié par trancers3, 11 avril 2011 - 05:53 .