337 réponses à ce sujet

[erynnar]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

-Yes

-Yes

And please waves are a pain in the arse, especially if I cann't use a tactical camera. Please bring the over head back. I like waves, but not ad nauseaum where I can't position myself or my group. If that bit of linguistic um..doofry? Makes any sense.

[erynnar]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

Oh and the  absurdity of a man or woman in full plate armor falling from a three story building without breaking every bone in there body, thus saving my Hawke the trouble of murder knifing them, is a little immersion breaking. ROFL!

[CubbieBlue66]

I don't have a problem with waves... but I want them to have a point of origin. I want all these people to come running out of an alleyway or a house. I want darkspawn coming through a tunnel or something...

What I don't want is adds jumping down from rooftops 360 degrees in the battlefield. There's absolutely nothing tactical about that. I want something I can look at and say "that's where these guys are coming in... let's send the warriors there and the mages should be safe back here."

[Dragoonlordz]

A more exact phrase I would use, the 'reinforcement' system should not be used unless your being pitted against an army or vast battlefield, including 'some' boss based battles. The 'wave' or reinforcement system should not be used for every single fight ever in games. It's unrealistic and a bit of a sad joke. The teleporting should be left for mages and spirits and even then through animations that can attribute to casting a teleportation spell else just use the doors and such like supposed to when entering or exiting a place. There is no real tactical use for implementing the kind of waves in DA2. When applying tactics the enemies must be using clear shown tactics in coming into the battle such as stage by stage type evolution of reinforcement and not willy nilly drop and spank method using completley random placement and units. Most battles should have set placements and amount of units while the major battles (story and location based) should apply reinforcements method only (even then using real tactics to approach not just dropping in random units at random places). That is what I would like to see.

If it comes down to applying difficulty to the combat you improve the tactics using much better implementation of reinforcements AND more to my liking is the DAO approach of to make progression harder through the game and not auto leveling of mobs to match your own regardless of unit type and a wave system on every fight to make up for lack of difficulty. Bring in new unit types as progress, stronger specific units as the game progresses while keeping the older models and units weak as you out level them, more cannon fodder to back up the new stronger ones as progress in battles than linking the weak random bandits to your maximum level hero's.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 mai 2011 - 01:25 .

[lazuli]

I'm fine with some battles featuring waves of reinforcements, but it should not be the norm. Tactical positioning just doesn't really exist in DA2, thanks to the wave mechanic more than anything else. If the wave mechanic must return, give players ways to counteract it. It's already metagamey enough to have waves, so it wouldn't be too out of line to flag certain types of enemies that will end waves if killed early. If you're going to use it, own it. In its current state it's just sloppy.

[Kileyan]

lazuli wrote...

I'm fine with some battles featuring waves of reinforcements, but it should not be the norm. Tactical positioning just doesn't really exist in DA2, thanks to the wave mechanic more than anything else. If the wave mechanic must return, give players ways to counteract it. It's already metagamey enough to have waves, so it wouldn't be too out of line to flag certain types of enemies that will end waves if killed early. If you're going to use it, own it. In its current state it's just sloppy.

This.

I don't mind waves existing for certain ghost or demon type critters, or as game mechanics for special battles.

Still the suprise of waves should be "OH CRAP" more are coming! Ya know, fear or anxiety that it might surpass your parties ability to suceed, not be a hum drum occasion.

In DA2 is was very much the opposite, it was more like "THANK THE MAKER" only two waves this fight. Not fear of your life, but mostly just thankful the fight was over, and you didn't have to keep running your squishy guys away from the paratrooper bad guys.

I really do miss the DA1 style fights, where I could sneak ahead my rogue, maybe drop a trap, stealth up to Mr. Annoying Mage, then kick the battle into motion. Hey I maybe didn't even need to do that to win the fights, but it was fun to have the choice. That doesn't seem to work much for DA2, perhaps my memory is wrong, but it seems everytime I tried to sneak ahead, the battle triggered and all the bad guys went on alert and ran for my party members most of the time even if they couldn't see them.

Modifié par Kileyan, 28 avril 2011 - 01:59 .

[Blastaz]

Grognard Experience:

Some of my favourite battles in BG2:ToB were David Gaider's add on mods, that's right a Dev modded his own game to make it more awesome, that's how cool Bioware were in those days, that's why people love 'em. Some of those battles, the fire giant guy especially made liberal use of waves of enemies. It was totatly ok in the story line. The Giant was the general of this army and you litteraly had to fight your way through the entire army to get to him. You were in DnD 2E terms about lvl 25 at the time most of the respawns were a respectable lvl 8. You butchered them. It was awesome. Then you had a hard fight against the high lvl fire giant boss, that was awesome too.

The problem with DA2 is not that it has respawns, but those respawns exist for no reason other than to make the combat last slightly longer. There is no reason why another wave of theives drop down from the roofs after you have slaughtered their boss and their friends, other than to make the fights longer.

The fights are not the reason why people play Bioware games, we play for the awesome stories, longer fights stop us getting to those stories. Please don't make the fights longer!

Edit: for awesome mod... http://weidu.org/asc...nsion-WeiDU.txt Bioware devs used to make their games harder, and more awesome, for free, that is why we love Bioware people!

Modifié par Blastaz, 28 avril 2011 - 02:34 .

[Anyroad2]

Like the OP I dont want to see waves used as much as they were in DA2. I can understand it for Undead (corpses/bones animating from underground) and Demons, but not for humaniods or creatures.

I mean...Its a lot more realistic, imo, for the player to come across a group of 15 Carta members having a meeting in a shady alley way then it is to only see 5 of them at the start and then relize that 10 others come poping in out of nowhere throughout the fight as you kill the original 5.


I dont whine about this game much, because I'm one of the people who really enjoyed this game dispite it not being a complete DAO clone. This is one of the changes that I hope goes into the trash with future relases of Dragon Age stuff, whether it be DLC or eventually DA3.

[Tony_Knightcrawler]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

I'd say this would be the best course on this issue.

[Lawliet89]

I actually think a mix of "already present enemies" and wave spawning is a good idea. I mean have some sort of variety. Not every fight has to contain waves and waves of armies that materialize from thin air. Some sort of suspense might be good.

[AkiKishi]

Lawliet89 wrote...

I actually think a mix of "already present enemies" and wave spawning is a good idea. I mean have some sort of variety. Not every fight has to contain waves and waves of armies that materialize from thin air. Some sort of suspense might be good.

Thing with waves is they need a reason to be there. Take Dynasty Warriors, they spawn from gates. Take the gates and they stop spawning. This was the case even as far back as Gauntlet and it's monster generators.
In both cases the spawning element is a strategic consideration of it's own. Do you run ahead of the army and cut off the gates, or do you go along with the army and just absorb the waves as they come? Do you take risks to shut off monster generators, or do you just let the monsters come to you and risk being overwhelmed.

With things just popping out of thin air there is no strategy element they will pop out of thin air whatever, they will pop up around your squishies and try to kill them. Each encounter becomes an excercise in micromanagement and the battle loses any sort of flow.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 28 avril 2011 - 12:59 .

[Kreidian]

I rather like the waves, but as you mentioned, having these people pop out of thin air is a bit silly and annoying. Not to mention that often if you've killed everyone in the first wave you don't see the second wave coming and suddenly your mage is insta-gibed by a rogue templar (which is stupid in and of itself) you had no chance to deal with.

[GravityParade]

I think waves are fine as long as they dont materialize out of thin air. Like Maybe every dungeon has an "Overmonger" of some sort (the final boss or an incremental boss of the zone?) and instead of the wave teleporting in like star trek, the wave could be dispatched from the Overmonger's location and run to the location of where the wave would have previously materialized. It sounds complicated but it wouldn't be that hard if every standard patrol had a decent bit of HP to chew on. And say your team kills the initial patrol before the re-enforcements arrive, it would be kinda cool as you start to move out, you catch the enemy platoon in transit. It would make encounters more natural and feel more random.

[In Exile]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Just out of curiosity, is the wave issue more problematic due to the enemies appearing from thin air or simply because you don't know how many more are coming and can't properly position yourself?

One is a consequence of the other. The enemies appear out of thin air and typically sorround you. Wave spawns like the the Saemus quest I don't miind so much (because you know they're coming, from where they're coming, there are breaks, etc.). and that's appreciated.

With nightmare, I find the HP of enemies too much. Especially elites. Hitting an assasin becomes a matter of hitting the right combo (say, the entropy dmg resistance + critical, + stagger + crushing prison) before they dissapear and 1-hit KO you.

I think the waves would be more tolerable if enemies and PCs were similar in HP and it was DMG output that favoured the PCs but only via cross class combos (CCCs).

So in effect the enemies would have the same stats, but more numbers; the PCs could balance that by stacking their DMG, not by coordinating, but by CCCs.

My major problem with gameplay in DA2 is that it feels as if enemy HP and dmg was balanced for CCCs on higher difficulties for the initial encounter and them you get waved swarmed.

Most enemies aren't bad, but assasins and rage demons are murder because you either stun them and kill them or they take out 1-2 party members. I actually like that the demons are hard to kill (lore consistent) but human enemies should IMO be as squishy as the party.

[SkittlesKat96]

I hope you are still reading these posts...

Anyway:

1. I found that being a rogue in Dragon Age II was kind of ruined by having to face waves cause you don't have that extra powerfulness the other classes do, maybe they could add abilities that increase stamina or health slightly or something as another wave comes...or something similar to that?

2. It would be good if not all combat had waves cause it gets annoying at times

EDIT: Disregard that first question, I kind of realized that Rogues in DA II are meant to be good at tearing at single enemies like bosses plus they have a bunch of debilitating abilities and stuff

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 28 avril 2011 - 04:23 .

[Alex Kershaw]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

Bioware logic:

Game #1 - 91 metacritic score
Game #2 - 82 metacritic score

Response from game #2 - don't make waved enemies

Bioware conclusion - keep waved enemies. *sarcastic clap*

EDIT: However, if we're resigned to keeping the wave system over DAO's perfectly fine system of having all the enemies already there so you can tactically plan ahead, then yes, your summary would be a step in the right direction.

Modifié par Alex Kershaw, 29 avril 2011 - 09:55 .

[mangiraffe dog000]

I've come to warn you about MAN-GIRAFFE-DOG!! It's the single greatest threat to humanity!! RUN AWAY!!



I'm still more Serial than ever guys.

[SirGladiator]

I think the general consensus is about right. I find facing lots of wave-battles to be really annoying after a while. So long as its used sparingly, for boss fights and other more important type battles, that's fine. And I also like the idea of the second wave coming in a way that makes sense, and perhaps gives a little bit of a warning, like when I've beaten everybody in front of Hawke, and I turn around and find that not only is the battle not over, but most of my team has been just about decimated by a big group of opponents I didnt even know was there, it seems like that shouldn't happen . So yes, please improve the waves thing, sounds like you've got a good handle on it, thanks for listening to the feedback!

[Wintermist]

mangiraffe dog000 wrote...

I've come to warn you about MAN-GIRAFFE-DOG!! It's the single greatest threat to humanity!! RUN AWAY!!



I'm still more Serial than ever guys.

Hahaha, that's too cute!

[Texhnolyze101]

[quote]erynnar wrote...

[quote]Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward  [/quote]


Of course you do how else will you get that COD/GOW crowd without random spawing enemies

[Texhnolyze101]

>.< stupid quote thing im sorry erynnar im still getting use to the sites interface .___.

[mesmerizedish]

Luke Barrett wrote...

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

I just noticed this now, because it was on the front page. I don't know if anyone's still watching.

But yes. This, 100%.

[TEWR]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy)

Yes.

One of my biggest gripes with enemies materializing out of nowhere (aside from armor wearing paratroopers) was the fact that Abominations were apparently living underground waiting for me sometimes.

Shades and Spirits and whatnot I understood rising from the ground. They're from an ethereal plane of existence and are ethereal themselves. Abominations however, are not.

I can understand waves if you're invading a fortress or something, but generic bandits not so much.

[Persephone]

erynnar wrote...

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

-Yes

-Yes

And please waves are a pain in the arse, especially if I cann't use a tactical camera. Please bring the over head back. I like waves, but not ad nauseaum where I can't position myself or my group. If that bit of linguistic um..doofry? Makes any sense.

This. SO much this!!!