337 réponses à ce sujet

[ShiverMeTimbers]

I haven't read the thread except for the OP's post. I have little time and just wanted to post to support this. Waves are for surfing - not killing.

Thanks.

Modifié par ShiverMeTimbers, 06 avril 2011 - 06:39 .

[Luke Barrett]

Just out of curiosity, is the wave issue more problematic due to the enemies appearing from thin air or simply because you don't know how many more are coming and can't properly position yourself?

[BroBear Berbil]

I don't think it matters to know how many are coming for positioning because you know exactly where they'll show up every time - the way you came from. Because of this it was very predictable to just run my ranged across to the other side when combat started.

[avantoreon]

I felt that the wave issue was most problematic because you don't know how many more are coming, so you don't know how you should budget your spells and abilities. If you're not sure how many enemies you're facing, it's difficult to tell whether it is smarter to use your ability now or gamble that you'll need it more in three seconds when some demons pop out of the ground.

[Lord_Saulot]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Just out of curiosity, is the wave issue more problematic due to the enemies appearing from thin air or simply because you don't know how many more are coming and can't properly position yourself?

Both, to an extent.  Also, the fact that it ruins suspension of disbelief when many enemies come from a direction you have cleared out, or emerge in a small room despite the fact that you have continually been using AoEs in that room.  I think the biggest problem was just how often the mechanic was used.  It makes for an interesting challenge when used occasionally - but when used so often it just makes things tedious.

[ShiverMeTimbers]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Just out of curiosity, is the wave issue more problematic due to the enemies appearing from thin air or simply because you don't know how many more are coming and can't properly position yourself?

For me, personally, if I had to choose from the two options you present then I'd say it's positioning.

But I'd say that it's just really a "non-rpg" feeling - if that makes any sense at all.

Waves are what I enjoy if I'm playing a shooter when I'm blasting with my spaceship/machingun/etc and am just trying to survive.  In a good RPG I enjoy sizing up what's coming and if the battle is supposed to be more difficult then it becomes that way because of tougher enemies via more health/stronger powers/improved AI/etc.

It's hard to explain here, I guess.  I hope you get the gist of what I'm trying to say.

Thanks.

[ShiverMeTimbers]

Also, I agree with Lord Saulot when he said that waves used situationaly is fine. Sometimes in DA2 it seems like it was used as a crutch for battles to make them more difficult.

Modifié par ShiverMeTimbers, 06 avril 2011 - 06:52 .

[Alex Kershaw]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Just out of curiosity, is the wave issue more problematic due to the enemies appearing from thin air or simply because you don't know how many more are coming and can't properly position yourself?

Both, and more. Thin air -> Bad. Lack of positioning -> Bad. Destroys tactics -> Bad. Also is frustrating, the sheer number of enemies is unrealistic, and the emphasis on combat is too high.

[Wulfram]

If they came from a sensible direction they'd be less annoying.

Most of the fights, massive numbers don't really make sense anyway

[Sammyjb]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Just out of curiosity, is the wave issue more problematic due to the enemies appearing from thin air or simply because you don't know how many more are coming and can't properly position yourself?

Both were an issue to me, but more the positioning and actual tactical implications. The appearing is just graphical.

My problems with waves are a bunch. First, you don't know how many enemies are going to come, so it is hard to budget your potions and spells. Second, positioning loses its value because enemies are going to appear all around you, so it is a waste of time to position too much. Also, it was used way too much.

But the last thing is the most important one. Did anyone complain about the skeletons in Redcliffe? No, because that was one of the only wave implementations in DAO. So if it returns to DA ]I[, please make it more varied. 

Also fix the jumping from heaven thing. But that's just graphical.

[Faust1979]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Just out of curiosity, is the wave issue more problematic due to the enemies appearing from thin air or simply because you don't know how many more are coming and can't properly position yourself?

it kinda bothers me sometimes because I just want to finish a quest or walk somewhere and I think I'm done and then it's oh great another dozen people to kill

[Catlana]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Just out of curiosity, is the wave issue more problematic due to the enemies appearing from thin air or simply because you don't know how many more are coming and can't properly position yourself?

I was bothered mostly by the enemies appearing out of thin air. Some enemies coming in waves is fine, I would like to have someone / something summoning / calling them to make the gameplay feel more logical. 

[optimates0193]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Just out of curiosity, is the wave issue more problematic due to the enemies appearing from thin air or simply because you don't know how many more are coming and can't properly position yourself?

The primary problem with the current wave mechanic is that the enemies, for the most part, spawn out of thin air. There's no point in trying to create a formation or position your characters in any meaningful way. Since you can expect multiple waves that spawn from any point in nearly every fight, the only way to react is by keeping everyone in a tight group. Which is fine for a fight or two, but when every fight follows that pattern, it becomes repetitive and boring.

Not knowing the amount that will be attacking, I don't see as a problem. That forces the player to use their resources carefully and time the usage of said resources appropriately.

[yuncas]

Lord_Saulot wrote...

Luke Barrett wrote...

Just out of curiosity, is the wave issue more problematic due to the enemies appearing from thin air or simply because you don't know how many more are coming and can't properly position yourself?

Both, to an extent.  Also, the fact that it ruins suspension of disbelief when many enemies come from a direction you have cleared out, or emerge in a small room despite the fact that you have continually been using AoEs in that room.  I think the biggest problem was just how often the mechanic was used.  It makes for an interesting challenge when used occasionally - but when used so often it just makes things tedious.

This. By the end of the game the action of fighting was a tired neccesity because of the repetition and length of encounters.  When used properly (point defense comes to mind i.e. redcilffe village) and sparingly it doesn't bother me one bit and actually becomes an interesting thing to experience.

[YooperLaw]

When enemies appear out of thin area or drop down from impossible heights it kind of ruins immersion. Actually, it destroys it. The fact that this is used in the majority of combat sequences just makes the problem that much worse. In some situations it works ... such as "boss" fights or those meant to be more challenging, but only when it involves undead or Shade enemies that could "realistically" appear" from the ground. In terms of normal enemies, they need to run out of doors and then only once. It's a tactic that should be used very little. Well that, and the whole absolutely destroying any tactical ability part. That's a big problem too.

[Milana_Saros]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Just out of curiosity, is the wave issue more problematic due to the enemies appearing from thin air or simply because you don't know how many more are coming and can't properly position yourself?

The former. Standing literally on top of an enemy when they spawn simply made me gringe. Defeating them isn't an issue, most of them are cannon fodder to begin with. Enemies spawning from nothing simply makes me feel very indifferent about the combat in general. Most of the time I find my rogue autoattacking and killing everything until the big bad boss spawns and I can load all my abilites on it.

[LocutusX]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Just out of curiosity, is the wave issue more problematic due to the enemies appearing from thin air or simply because you don't know how many more are coming and can't properly position yourself?

Both can be problems but if the budget only allows you to fix ONE of them, then the second one is probably easier to fix.

i.e. hard limit on waves tied to difficulty level: max 1 addt'l wave @ Normal, 2 on Hard, unlimited on Nightmare.
easy to implement... 30 min. of coding at the most.

If you guys have lots of time/money then what you want to do is analyze each fight in detail and determine which points on the map are logical places to drop in new enemies. So in a city map, you can say one of the houses is where the thugs were hanging out at, so they all start pouring out of that house... thus the party will stay in the middle of the street away from the house and dont have to worry about the mages getting rear-ended.
This one would take more time to implement, also requires quite a bit of analysis.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Just out of curiosity, is the wave issue more problematic due to the enemies appearing from thin air or simply because you don't know how many more are coming and can't properly position yourself?

I don't mind repositioning.  For me, it's thin air.  This is balanced against the DAO critisim I had which was:  "Why are mobs just standing around doing nothing?"  You can't please some people, I know.

Can mobs come from a place?  A window or a door?  Windows and doors would also be darn fine places to store all the loot the mobs would drop as well.  Then I don't have to walk around cleaning the place up.

Waves seem overused.  Like the nighttime battles in Hightown.  Do those =have= to be waves?  Couldn't there be half as many waves of proportionally stronger mobs?  Because they just keep coming, waves sometimes feel like fillter, which is a bummer.  The easy mobs that you plow through in the DAO endgame were great... they didn't feel like filler because they stood out from the normal mechanic.  Playing it, I knew **** was about to get real.  The waves of easy mobs in DA2 were fun to watch explode and die (specially as a mage!) but it stopped being neat and started being too much.

[Dave of Canada]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Just out of curiosity, is the wave issue more problematic due to the enemies appearing from thin air or simply because you don't know how many more are coming and can't properly position yourself?

Personally, my problem with waves was how I'd often destroy an enemy wave and sit there for a few seconds waiting for another wave to appear. I'll admit, on Nightmare this isn't as much of a problem but on anything other than Nightmare it leads to the player just standing around doing nothing.

It's not that troublesome but it does get old after doing it for a few hours.

[Lord Gremlin]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Just out of curiosity, is the wave issue more problematic due to the enemies appearing from thin air or simply because you don't know how many more are coming and can't properly position yourself?

Both. Mostly former though. The moment enemy appears out of nowhere any tactics is ruined. When enemies come from somewhere, like doorway or a trapdoor, that's ok. But spawn out of nowhere behind your back - that's a feature of your average action game with 30 Metacritic. I'm still wondering how did you get this idea in the first place, it's been considered lame design years ago.

[Soul Cool]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Just out of curiosity, is the wave issue more problematic due to the enemies appearing from thin air or simply because you don't know how many more are coming and can't properly position yourself?

The enemies spawning in plain sight was always disturbing. What are they, Romulans? I feel like my character should have red excalamation marks popping up above his/her head every time an enemy spaws/appears like that.

Modifié par Soul Cool, 06 avril 2011 - 07:26 .

[Nelatherion]

Both.

It is annoying when you think you have bested your enemy, had two people already out of the fight and having Mythral's favour as well as Anders on cool down only to have another wave come in and just mop the floor with you before you can reposition anyone.

As well, them popping out of thin air breaks immersion.

If the enemies were shown waiting above you and in the positions they were going to drop then it would break immersion less and allow you to plan appropriately. And not have this every fight, just a certain percentage of fights.

[Inarai]

ShiverMeTimbers wrote...

Luke Barrett wrote...

Just out of curiosity, is the wave issue more problematic due to the enemies appearing from thin air or simply because you don't know how many more are coming and can't properly position yourself?

For me, personally, if I had to choose from the two options you present then I'd say it's positioning.

But I'd say that it's just really a "non-rpg" feeling - if that makes any sense at all.

Waves are what I enjoy if I'm playing a shooter when I'm blasting with my spaceship/machingun/etc and am just trying to survive.  In a good RPG I enjoy sizing up what's coming and if the battle is supposed to be more difficult then it becomes that way because of tougher enemies via more health/stronger powers/improved AI/etc.

It's hard to explain here, I guess.  I hope you get the gist of what I'm trying to say.

Thanks.

I have to say, I find waves to be more realistic and immersive when I don't notice the odd "teleport in".  Why?  Because in reality, you don't have everything on the board all at once.  People are gonna come running in, gonna hear something's going on and run to back up their friends, send off for reienforcements/sound the horn...  It could be handled better, and it shouldn't be every fight, however.  Approaches should be a key tactical consideration - acknowledging the fact that the enemy might not have all their pieces on the board, you should be able to consider where they could be coming in from.  If someone's signaling reinforcments, it should be possible to see that possibility and stop it - kill the guy carrying the horn.

It's a good mechanic, but poorly implemented and overused.

[4bs.zer0]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Just out of curiosity, is the wave issue more problematic due to the enemies appearing from thin air or simply because you don't know how many more are coming and can't properly position yourself?

I wouldn't mind some sort of "reinforcements" mechanic for encouters that would make sense for it. The way it's implemented in DA2 is _horrible_! Enemies appearing out of thin air is ridicilous enough by itself, and having every single encounter use this mechanic makes it even worse.

[Siven80]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Just out of curiosity, is the wave issue more problematic due to the enemies appearing from thin air or simply because you don't know how many more are coming and can't properly position yourself?

Because most waves are full of critter level mobs which means no challenge, and the waves are a part of every battle so it becomes really tedious. (atleast for me).