337 réponses à ce sujet

[skyrend]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Just out of curiosity, is the wave issue more problematic due to the enemies appearing from thin air or simply because you don't know how many more are coming and can't properly position yourself?

Both.  Stamina/mana management is an issue unless you want to chug potions.  Positioning gets screwed up since they just spawn out of thin air on top of carefully placed mages/ranged and with the pace this game is meant to be played at, it's kind of annoying to pause and pan the camera to make sure that a fresh batch hasn't just landed on your mage/ranged.  You know what would alleviate the second problem?  A tactical camera.

Modifié par skyrend, 06 avril 2011 - 07:38 .

[Frumyfrenzy]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Just out of curiosity, is the wave issue more problematic due to the enemies appearing from thin air or simply because you don't know how many more are coming and can't properly position yourself?

Positioning is a crucial element of tactical gameplay. Positioning before a fight, because your rogue sneaked around the corner to check on enemy forces and prepared traps(!) accordingly, is a fun element in tactical gameplay. Enemies simply appearing out of thin air and not being able to estimate enemy strength due to hidden waves counter tactical gameplay. So regarding your question it really is both. Reconnaissance, deciding a strategy, identifying choke points, positioning, prioritizing targets, laying traps - encounter should be designed with these things in mind (in my opinion), at least on hard or above. 

Modifié par Frumyfrenzy, 06 avril 2011 - 07:42 .

[Luke Barrett]

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

Modifié par Luke Barrett, 06 avril 2011 - 07:46 .

[Kajan451]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Just out of curiosity, is the wave issue more problematic due to the enemies appearing from thin air or simply because you don't know how many more are coming and can't properly position yourself?

Well, my personal take would be in this order:

1) Its silly to fight this many opponents. It kills off any kind of immersion. Fighting litterally hundreds of Thieves just for passing through 4 zones at night... or killing roughly 100 people of a group that are said to be a small splinter of what was said to have arrived in a small number.... it just feels very silly.

It was okay with the Darkspawn, because there has been a reasonable explaination why there would be so many of them. There HAD to be so many of them to make it feel like an invasion for which you need to gather an army.

But in DA2... if i am fighting almost 500 Thieves and Rogues over the course of a single act... it just makes you wonder how many Cityguards Kirkwall has to have so they won't be overtaken by that small army. I mean we talk about enough Thieves so they could be called a Battalion, if they would organize into a Military unit and decide to overtake the city.

2) Enemies appearing from Thin air, added to underline how silly the numbers in the waves are.


I have no problem with some fights getting reinforcements, but not every single one. And certainly i would prefere believable numbers of opponents.

If there are a handful ships landing on the shore of some place, i imagine there couldn't be more, than 300 people tops on those ships.  And if there is such a small group in the first place, it just feels silly if you are told "look over there are a few of us who went Rogue in this new lands"... and then you go on and fight what feels like at least half of the people who could have arrived.

Thats my biggest beef with the waves of enemies.

[EthanDirtch]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Just out of curiosity, is the wave issue more problematic due to the enemies appearing from thin air or simply because you don't know how many more are coming and can't properly position yourself?

For me personally it's a mixture of both.

I know you tried in certain situations, like having them jump down from the rooftops, but a lot of the time they do in fact just 'poof' or 'bamf!' (for X-Men geeks out there) from out of nowhere into the fight. This obviously visual gimmick breaks immersion pretty easily.

And, it's all about tactics. When you don't have a lot of heal spells to use (like you did in DAO) and the potions are now on a cooldown, it's harder (not impossible, or even gruelling depending on difficulty level and the opponents you're facing) to navigate the battlefield and your companions.

And, again for me, the final bit returns to immersion: the idea of all enemies just standing and waiting for their comrades to die before joining the fray seems wrong to me. It's been using in Hollywood and b- or c-level TV shows and other media, but I didn't miss it in DAO. Why must they all wait? Why can't they all be 'in the field' at the same time?

In conclusion, I don't mind waves in certain situations, or with certain enemies. I don't mind it being sprinkled sparingly throughout the game, in scripted events that are supposed to be tougher (like, as an arbitrary example, the final battle in DA2). But when the majority of enemy encounters involve at least an additional wave, it just feels off.

Certain situations I could think of where this mechanic would be both useful and within story, are:
-Undead. I can buy the idea of more corpses being raised from other graves, or other patches of undisturbed earth
-Spiders and other monsters (not dragons): Spiders breed plenty. I can buy the idea of monster spiders coming out from dark corners as you slay their brethren.
-A more scripted ambush approach: I can see a situation like this inside a larger dungeon/building, where one or more of the enemies that haven't yet been killed with call out (or summon) others to help. You can even add this into a battle mechanic where you then have to stop the guy from summoning reinforcements.
-Scripted plot events: ala the last battle in DA2, and other similar events where you'd expect there to be a lot of soldiers/thugs/etc.

Certain situations I could think of where this mechanic would be NOT ideal:
-Dragons. There was a couple of situations where dragons kept coming out of nowhere. I was of the mind that dragons are a rare breed these days. They should be kept special, and kept strong. Having them spawn in waves cheapens them a little.
-Nighttime encounters: An evening stroll in Kirkwall should produce ambushes, but not waves upon waves of them. Within character and story, ambushers at night would rely on surprise; otherwise, thugs and mercernaries and assassins at night shouldn't be expecting anyone to fight them at all, let alone being prepared for a second wave in case they do in fact meet stiff resistance.
-Any areas where there's no logical place to hide: Places outside the city or dungeons/buildings where there's no reasonable place for enemies to just be 'parked' waiting to run in during a battle. Places where a player can clearly see his/her surroundings. In these situations all enemies should be in the field already, unless it's part of a scripted event ala mage summoning more corpses or monsters.

Waves should be a mechanic reserved, not guaranteed. It can help keep fights interesting, but if every fight involves a wave or two, then it loses its luster and importance, not to mention breaking immersion and just causing undue frustration.

[VCharD]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

Agree completely! Thank you for taking down these notes

[skyrend]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

That would definitely be a welcome improvement.  

I liked DA:O's system where the enemies, for the most part, in an area are all numbered and accounted for when I stepped into it.  It allows me systematically approach the levels.

[Galad22]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

I'd say this is about it.

It was used sparingly in origins and no one really complained about it there.

[Sammyjb]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

Great job, Mr.Barrett! And may I thank you for coming onto the forums to ask about what we thought of things. This is the best way to get a firm perspective of what we want, and I don't know many devs from any company that would actually ask us what we want and then show us his draft of it. As a Bioforum member, I salute you!

*salutes*

[Dubya75]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

YESSS! 

[Jones7602]

@Luke Barrett: My main problem are enemies appearing from thin air. I mean, really, it is 2011, so a modern RPG should show me whats going on in the world. Any place in the city looking empty from 100m distance can't be suddenly filled with enemies popping from nothingness while I approach. Even more unbelievable are "reinforcement" out of thin air. Either they walk down the road, as I do, or they come from building, or they are visible from the beginning. If they are visible I like to decide whats happening, everything I should be able to ambush...

[ZeshinX]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

I would say summary point one is spot on.  No appearing out of nowhere, dropping from the sky, or willing themselves into existence.  Spirits and fade creatures, sure.

Waves are bad.  Much like swooping.    The feedback from the community has, I think, clearly shown that waves are considered a poor and massively unwelcome addition to the Dragon Age universe.

However, in the spirit of compromise, possible uses for waves that MIGHT be acceptable:

- large battlefield engagements, much like the Battle of Ostagar.  Instead of a cinematic showing the battle, allow us to participate once the melee begins and waves of enemies then would seem more or less normal
- the waves of spirits we saw in certain battles in DA2 (like fighting Xebenkeck).  Appearing from nowhere is part of the terror demons and fade creatures inspire
- gladatorial combat, much like in Gladiator, when the trap door opens to reveal a tiger

[Must have name]

I completely agree that having waves every other fight is utterly infuriating.

Personally, i'd have them extremely rare; restricted to either boss fights or the occasional fight as a "surprise".

[Statulos]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

Mr. Barret from my part I can tell you that getting the baddies doing the 101 Airborne Death from Above simply does not fit in a medieval environment and is not nice at all for tactics.

However, if you get the same bad guys running from another street so you can calculate their potential axis of advance, create a frontline and position your support, things change. In fact, that mechanic can be made fun if the game makes you take part of a battle or a massive conflict.

For the big dudes, it's a pain in the ass to have continual waves of litte minions once you have adjusted your tactics. Basicaly you have 4 elements in your squad and that makes things tight. If you have your tank taking the massive damage of the big guy and your hard hitter taking out the small minions while both are supported by the other two in the form of flanking or artillery from behind, don't try to overload me again and again with wave after wave. A fight of 20 minutes doing the same again and again is not fun at all, with or without waves.

Modifié par Statulos, 06 avril 2011 - 08:10 .

[Frumyfrenzy]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

This is correct, but I'd like to add something. The sheer number of too quickly dying enemies of those wave left me feeling like a harvester (that they exploded on top of that didn't exactly help, but that*s another topic). If a fight has 15 enemies with a total of 1000 HP, make it 5-7 enemies with at least the same amount of HP. Spending more time with a single enemy (due to more HP) and with fewer enemies per fight makes it feel less like harvesting and more like actual fighting. Longer fights with fewer enemies - just a suggestion to play around with.

[Seraphael]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

Sounds pretty good. In short; plausible encounters. Do not challenge the suspension of disbelief too often.

An ogre crashing through a wall would scare the bejeezus out of me. Trolls (or the DA equivalent) surging up from underneath a bridge - likewise. Teleporting mages, stealthened assassins or rogues simply jumping down from rooftops. Dopplegangers appearing from magical mirrors.

A troop of warriors could be part of a wave if spawned a bit outside view range and the player may or may not be warned by the noise they make (shouting, footsteps). Battles where the player have no chance but to flee after intense fighting or to fight past enemies in limited amount of time before sh!t hits the fan.

Mix it up to make things interesting! I hope ME3 also will benefit from an improved wave-system.

[Sejborg]

Luke Barrett wrote...

- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

This point I don't agree with entirely. Because it is not fun to swing away at some guy that have a huge health bar. And when you finally get him close to death, he takes a healing potion. The hunters/assasins/stealth-guys was so annoying because they had so much health and also dealt so much damage.

It was frustrating when they just suddenly spawned, and you couldn't kill them because they had so much health, and before you knew it your party was wiped.

But if the hunter was there to begin with, and you could focus on killing him and he didn't have such a huge health pool, then it would be a fair match. Then it would be your own mistake if the hunter got the chance to wipe out your party. Because you could just have killed him to begin with, instead of attacking some grunt.

Unless it is a boss you are fighting I don't really think that it should take more than 10 seconds top to kill it. 

A enemy rogue should just take a couple of hits to my liking. 

Everything should have less health.

Modifié par Sejborg, 06 avril 2011 - 08:32 .

[abnocte]

In DAO I only remember seeing it twice, the spider queen at the deep roads, and the Broodmother. Those are boss battles, and made perfect sense to have waves.

I also don't fancy the idea of my ( not mage ) character being able to wipe hundreds of people and barely get any scratch. In DA2 I had real problems believing my character was a "normal human", DAO combat felt much more satisfying in that regard.

But since I guess this feature will remain more visible than in DAO...

- use it sparingly

- Fade things & corpes ok

- in case of bandits at least show someone running for reinforcements, or someone blowing a battle horn to warn nearby allies. It can be funny to track the poor sod and kill him before he gives the signal. Meaning that not necessarily he will call for reinforcements as soon as the battle begins...

- Dragons. If you enter their lair and it happens that the dragon is raising her offspring I can understand meeting a group of them, and have weaves of attacks. But I prefer if dragons remain something more unique.

That's it for now...

Modifié par abnocte, 06 avril 2011 - 08:34 .

[Brockololly]

Luke Barrett wrote...
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.

Yeah, its fine with spirits and supernatural types that have some reasonable in game rationale for materializing out of thin air. Even with skeletons sitting on the ground though (and maybe it was this way in Origins at times too, I can't recall) its annoying when you enter an area and see a ton of skeletons on the ground, and you know that the second you walk by they'll spring to life.

Luke Barrett wrote...
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

Definitely- what makes the wave combat so annoying is how I'd be going along and then finish the first wave, start moving forward and then as I'm getting ready to keep exploring, "Oh look another wave spawned behind me!" So now half of my party is back fighting and I'm left wondering where they went to.

The waves make sense if you're fighting a horde of darkspawn or like in Origins during the Redcliffe seige. But for random Carta thugs # 78652? No. You turn on the Benny Hill music and the constant waves was just like dudes popping out of a clown car after a while.

Combined with how quickly most of the enemies go down, it just makes combat tedious. Add in how you can't properly plan for where the waves come from combined with the speed of combat, and its exceedingly frustrating to position your guys only for a wave to materialize out of thin air, Doom 3 monster closet style, and wipe out your mages/archers who you intentionally kept back. There is no incentive to play tactically when everything happens so quickly and guys explode into gore confetti just from simple autoattacks.

So yes, fewer enemies that are harder to kill and require actual tactics and positioning of one's party would be fantastic. As others have said, the tactical element in terms of positioning is largely tossed out the window with the magic waves- it would be like drawing up a football play, running the play, having your player break free and running for the touchdown only for the entire defense to spawn right on the goal line. Not fun, just frustrating, and tedious especially when it happens like clockwork.



Personally, I'd love to see more environmental interaction with combat, such that  you could maybe have your force mage knock down rubble to possibly block a path, thus preventing an oncoming wave of enemies. That goes beyond the discussion here I guess, but more interaction with the environment in combat would be nice.

Modifié par Brockololly, 06 avril 2011 - 08:42 .

[Brockololly]

Filament wrote...
I remember in the Varterral Cave, I thought they tricked me by putting all of those skeletons there that never rose. Then I found out you had to walk back out the way you came. Yeah...

It reminded me of Dead Space whenever you see a corpse- you almost always stomp it so the Regenerators can't bring them back to life. Or you shoot them all upon entering an area as you know the second you walk by they'll just pop up.

[Rm80]

I agree with the common opinion here (I believe it is the common opinion anyway) waves of reinforcement was pretty cool the first times it happend....I was thinking to myself behind the computer: Oh crap, im doomed.

Problem is when it happens in every figth (more or less) the surprise and fun aspect of the extra waves are kinda gone..

[Blacklash93]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

Pretty much.

Waves should be used in a fashion like seeing enemies come down a corridor or something (also used conservatively). Spirits and stuff are an exception for the insta-waves, but yes, a visual cue before they appear like a wisp waiting to spawn or skeleton bones laying around.

You should be able to see all it coming, regardless.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 06 avril 2011 - 08:51 .

[Mavkiel]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

Only part I see missing is the location of where they spawn. They imo, should not spawn ontop of the party. Currently, the best strategy for ANY encounter is to run to a room that you already cleared to make your stand. Personally I believe thats where most of the hate of the wave system stems from. That and the sheer numbers of critters you have to kill. (Much rather have smaller groups of harder enemies)

Also, the current system makes having any non-melee character annoying to have along. If they can't take a couple hits, then you either have to micro-manage them or know they are going to bite it in the fight.