337 réponses à ce sujet

[SmokePants]

Enemy force replenishment is important. More bodies = more death and destruction = your character feels powerful. Without a wave system, you have what DAO had -- several absurdly front-loaded engagements where you had to pull mobs like some broke-ass MMO. The rest of the fights were over before you could use a fraction of your abilities, making all that thought you put into a build -- and a lot of the talents that were built around longer-term fights -- go largely to waste.

The problem of them appearing out of nowhere is a tough one to solve. Especially in this setting. But it's clearly something that can be iterated and improved upon.

[Mykel54]

Luke Barrett wrote...

- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

In my humble opinion Luke, the problem is not with waves per se, but as you say with how it was handled. I will try to explain my view with an example. In origins when you were ambushed in Denerim, you had certain number of bandits waiting for you, once you killed them all the fight was over. This system was fine, but as you say waves are also a viable feature, as long as it is done in a reasonable way that does not break inmersion.

One way of doing it could be like this: hawke arrives at a point in city and is ambushed by bandits, let´s say there are 20 of them to start with. You can pause the game, and asses the enemy forces, and plan how to beat them. Now imagine that when they are down to 10 bandits, one of them says "You are no match for the white falcons!".

Then, a wave appear: but not right there on top of you where you were fighting. Instead they appear on a alley near of you, then they quickly move. So the player see a group of bandits (10-15) that are running to hit him/her from behind, possibly picking out the casters that were away from the main fighting!

After the player defeat the bandits, the fight should really be over. The bandits can´t just spawn endless waves, they need to have a limited number of reinforcements (say 2 waves at maximun). If the fight is inside a building, the new reinforcements could come from another room (make a room where you put the reinforcement and a doot that the player could not open until this fight, suddenly opens and reveal more enemies).

I think the basic idea is: there can be waves, representing reinforcements that the enemy get while fighting, but they should be used sparingly and in a way that does not break inmersion. I really like how spiders for example appear out of nowhere and freat the hell out of you. With bandits you could for example be walking, and see npcs that are just standing there doing nothing, as soon as you reach some point they all go hostile and attack you (saying something like: we got you hawke!). Surprise can be an exciting way to create fights, instead of relying always on waves of new enemies.

I hope my post wasn´t too long, thanks kindly for hearing us out Luke.

[yeldarbnotned]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

This would be much improvement

[Angry_Baby]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

I agree with this 100%.  Thanks!

[Shazzie]

Luke Barrett wrote...
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.

YES! I absolutely hated watching human NPCs spawn into my party. It felt cheap, and cheesy, and got even cheaper and cheesier since they were just more bags of blood ready to go kablooie.

Luke Barrett wrote...
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

Definitely. Waves make sense in some circumstances, and they can add to the intensity of the fight. But when it's clockwork, as you said, it just gets annoying... especially since you can't plan your fights. At all. Ever. Not every single combat should be with a group that has reinforcements conveniently hidden away, much less multiple waves of reinforcements.

And longer fights with harder enemies is, for me, MUCH MORE FUN than fights with massive numbers of exploding blood bags or other forms of weak NPCs. Even on Nightmare, I felt like I was having hordes and hordes of 'trash mobs' (to use MMO speak) thrown at me, all while I was waiting for the 'real fight' to begin. And it seldom did.

[Cyberfrog81]

Yes, you really did go overboard with the waves.

I'd rather have quality encounters (preferably in unique locations) instead of this massive quantity. If that means a shorter game, then so be it.

I still prefer all these bite-sized quests to another looooong trip through the Deep Roads (pretty much perfect length in DA2), the forest temple thingy or the Fade though.

[_Somebody]

The waves were fine at the start of the game in Lothering. (The part thats in the demo)
The darkspawn came from up the hill or paths. I hated it when enemies spawned right infront of me, or behind me out of no where and killed my mages/archers. I couldnt plan at all for that, I much preferred it the way it was in Origins.

Its good to see that this is being addressed though for future games. 

Modifié par Somebody, 06 avril 2011 - 10:08 .

[silentassassin264]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Just out of curiosity, is the wave issue more problematic due to the enemies appearing from thin air or simply because you don't know how many more are coming and can't properly position yourself?

Because you can't position yourself.  It is impossible to shield your mage properly when a bunch of archers spawn behind them and all decide to rip your mage apart.  Mages and Rogues have no immunity to knockback so on nightmare, they can combo your ranged characters to death before you even can respond.  Having no warning of another wave approaching also compounded the problem.

[Taxonomy]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

Solid summary. Thank you for taking the time to do this; if you fix this and the recycled environments, you've solved my two main complaints about DA2.

[Wintermist]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

Exactly this. Thank you for the concern!

[Luke Barrett]

Taxonomy wrote...

Solid summary. Thank you for taking the time to do this; if you fix this and the recycled environments, you've solved my two main complaints about DA2.

This won't be something fixed in DA2 core but we're definitely compiling all these suggestions/criticisms in order to improve in the future. I'm merely focusing the discussion in to something summarized and easily presented.

[shumworld]

At first I didn't like the waves. Once I leveled up I grew to like the waves. To an extent they still annoy me. Though if this is the future for later DA games, then I'm alright with that.

[Horus Blackheart]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

Nor would you get waves ala jade empire that leap or repell off of random rooftops thats really jaring for the setting. It works in Jade empire because it was emulating the martal arts movies in style.

Please no more of this ever in DA

[silent bumblebee]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

Everyone else already kind of said it, but one more yes vote couldn't hurt. This is, very much so, what I would like to see. Thank you for asking for feedback too!

[nightscrawl]

Wintermist wrote...

The difficulty of the encounters is not what is in question here, but the fact that they completely ruined the immersion by coming from everywhere and in every fight. It was just too unrealistic to me and that really brought down what I thought would otherwise have been a really good game.

Lol... especially with some of the nighttime Docks encounters, it was pretty rediculous to see enemies jumping down from nowhere. Perhaps the idea was that they are waiting perched on building roofs and such, but with the max camera distance being only about 10 feet, it's difficult to notice if that's the case XD.

[Sanguinerin]

Luke, that summarized report is pretty much perfect!

I didn't even mind the waves that much. They themselves were repetitive, but I don't care much for combat in general. The story is the compelling factor for me. However, it was strange to see enemies coming from mid-air. The demons and skeletons coming up from the floor were done well, although little skeleton piles as a visual cue nearby would certainly help with the atmosphere.

Also, if BioWare would like to introduce anything with wings as an enemy, the swooping down from above has merit. I'm not opposed to being attacked by something from above, but when it's a man in full plate armor with as much grace as a ballerina... It's certainly odd. It made sense for some types of enemies, archers or rogues, people who were supposed to be agile, to a degree. Although perhaps hopping down from above could be reserved for more fixed, special encounters with rogue-like enemies. I think if it had been used more sparingly and with very specific enemy types, it wouldn't have felt so strange.

[PanosSmirnakos]

For me the recycled to death enviroments and this wave system in battles were the worst features of DA II. After act 2, I was playing the game only for the sake of completing it... So, I hope Biowarians that in your future titles you are going to fix these issues. It was obvious that they exist for making the game longer with minimum effort. How to use tactics when hordes of enemies appear from nowhere and surround you with supersonic speed... It was also obvious that you can't combine tactical and action RPG elements in one game. Sorry if I'm harsh, but I really wanted to like DA 2...

Modifié par PanosSmirnakos, 06 avril 2011 - 11:40 .

[Jman5]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Just out of curiosity, is the wave issue more problematic due to the enemies appearing from thin air or simply because you don't know how many more are coming and can't properly position yourself?

I would like some sort of intuitive feature in the game that lets me know when I'm fighting a regular ambush and when I'm fighting an extended psuedo-boss ambush. One possibility is to create different combat music depending on the type of fight so the player knows he has to buckle down and prepare for a slug-fest.

Track 01: Single Wave, easy fight
Track 02: A couple waves, normal fight
Track 03: Extended waves + psuedo boss (templar captain eg), hard fight
Track 04: Act Boss, extra hard fight!

[Mavkiel]

Argh I'd hate that. Why not just read a walk-through at that point? Some mystery is a good thing.

[Horus Blackheart]

The wave type tied to music ques is a horable idea. as is the idea of having 4 wave types sorry but no just no.

[LadyJaneGrey]

Luke Barrett wrote...
What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

Looks good.

[Loc'n'lol]

Don't use waves when they really don't make sense.

Highwaymen would attack easy targets for a quick money grab, they wouldn't keep throwing men at it just because. In fact, after you kill a few they should probably start running away screaming, or surrender and beg for mercy, not just get killed so that more of them can come and get killed too. This might be different if you are attacking their hideout (this time the player gets the initiative and they have no retreat), but even then, don't have an entire army of them to slaughter...

Military types, like qunari, mercenaries or templars, they may reasonably be expected to come in large numbers and be able take a few losses and keep fighting, if they really have a good reason to want the player dead. But even then, one wave of reinforcements should be the most you get to fight under normal circumstances.

Darkspawn... well they don't seem to value their own life very much and their greatest strength is their virtually unlimited numbers so I guess it makes sense that they would overwhelm with waves and keep going regardless of their own losses.

Spirits/lesser demons, same, they blindly attack whatever comes and can be summoned litterally from thin air, no problem.

Wild animals... well, mammals probably wouldn't be in sufficient numbers to attack in waves in the first place, and if they were they'd probably get a clue after the the first wave dies and just hide. Giant spiders/insects, on the other hand, I guess they'd keep fighting to the death to protect their queen/leader/eggs/whatever.

[KennethAFTopp]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Taxonomy wrote...

Solid summary. Thank you for taking the time to do this; if you fix this and the recycled environments, you've solved my two main complaints about DA2.

This won't be something fixed in DA2 core but we're definitely compiling all these suggestions/criticisms in order to improve in the future. I'm merely focusing the discussion in to something summarized and easily presented.

What about the lack of diversity in the encounters of the game, while overwhelm in it's DA:O version was really annoying, encounters in that game was much more diverse and you had to adjust your strategy much more than you do in DA2.

[Sen4lifE]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

I think the problem is for some people they can't get positioned right, but I think the real problem is the appearing out of thin air (with exceptions).  And the fact that it happens with almost every single fight in the game.  I mean, I get it for normal fights, but sometimes it just doesn't make sense.  And maybe you guys could have it a bit more.. realistic.  Like perhaps when fighting a gang, they come out of a warehouse or something instead of dropping from their magic helicopters?  And on this note, boss fights.  They're pretty cool but the cyclic attitude of them got old.  In DA:O it seemed like each time you moved on to another "round" of the boss fight, as in they moved somewhere, something happened or whatever, it was different.  In DAII it's like a repeated practice.  you could make a macro and just beat it without looking.  Like the Dragon keeps jumping on the cliff and waves come in.. the first time... okay.. not the next few times.  The stone boss, he does the same thing, just breaks down and comes back together.  They shouldn't cycle like that, maybe the little "checkpoints" in those battles being different each time?

[Wishpig]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

I think DA2 was a good but heavily flawed game (I think it was very much worth the money!)

However, I think bioware was clusmy and made some stupid choices... although I think the main problems stem from the game being rushed more than bad choices. And don't let this take away from the fact bioware made some very good choices and had some very good ideas even if they weren't implanted in the best of ways.

I think some bioware devs strait up lied to us on these forums (like constantly saying we were stupid for saying the game was rushed... which it so clearly was) and EA is using some very cheap and unethical methods to make $$$.

But I've always said ultimatly bioware listens to feedback, and truly cares about what people like and dislike about the game. If nothing else DA2 proves that the devs are willing to tackle the problems and issues of previous games.

I think DA2 was a hiccup, and that ultimatly it will be the stepping stone that leads to an utterly fantastic Dragon Age 3.

It's posts like these that reassure such a belief. Thanks devs !

Modifié par Wishpig, 07 avril 2011 - 02:19 .