337 réponses à ce sujet

[Jman5]

Horus Blackheart wrote...

The wave type tied to music ques is a horable idea. as is the idea of having 4 wave types sorry but no just no.

Why is it a horrible idea? We already have combat music and we already have multiple wave types in Dragon Age 2.  A lot of the complaints I've read regarding the wave style boils down to two factors.
Complaint 1: The fights feel tedious especially when I'm just trying to travel from Point A to Point B.
Complaint 2: Some fights last forever and feel like they are never going to end.

The idea of adding a few extra combat music tracks would help people understand that this isn't just lowtown gang ambush #351. It would also make some of the fights more memorable because it triggered the "special combat music".

While we probably don't need four tracks, I think having at least two different music tracks would feel better from a gameplay perspective.

[Firky]

I liked the reinforcements. It made me play a lot better.

But, maybe mix it up a bit. Some fights without, some with. The Redcliffe battle in Origins seemed to employ reinforcements really well, on 2 fronts.

I reckon they should stay, but maybe 60% of the time.

[LT123]

Just adding my vote. Waves are OK if used in appropriate situations. When it happens in every single fight it gets old fast. I get tired of fighting what seems like fifty thugs in an encounter every time I walk around at night.

[Ensgnblack]

I agree with your summary Luke. Enemies appearing out of thin air was immersion breaking and silly, but having them run in from another alley or jump down from roofs occasionally would be fine.

Id also like to see the waves more about strategy (ie positioning for a new one) rather than simply attrition and saving cooldowns.

[takfar]

It worked fine in DA:O. If used sparingly, in special situations, it can make you stay on your toes, never knowing how many more enemies are going to come and for how long you'll be able to hold out. This was perfect in the Redcliffe defense in DAO.

It should only happen when it makes sense tho, and only rarely, for a surprising effect, or in really large and important battles. We should be able to think tactically and position our characters accordingly, most of the time, without being cheaply ambushed out of thin air, which happened all the time in DA2.

Modifié par takfar, 07 avril 2011 - 03:37 .

[Zanallen]

The waves are fine as a mechanic. I would just like to see them used less frequently and, while I didn't notice a whole lot of this myself, the spawning could have been handled better. Perhaps only have waves when attacking an enemy stronghold? Or maybe just waves of less, but stronger opponents?

[taine]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

Bummer But it's good to hear you're listening to feedback.

- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.

In general, enemies should only come in from nowhere if there is some indication that they are around, or are being summoned. I think you are on the right track here though.
 

- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

This I think should be the main point of emphasis. For one, there was too much combat in DA2. Secondly, most of that combat was pointless filler (random thugs in the streets, waves of spiders or corpses, etc.). Most of them were not particularly challenging -- particularly as the game progressed. -- and began to feel repetitive.  In general, smaller set battles, less HP for everyone, and the reintroduction of being able to miss would be a good start I think. Waves are not inherently bad, but they are an artificial challenge and strip any strategy from the combat.

[Jman5]

With regards to the spawning waves, it sort of comes off as a placeholder rush job. Something that we would expect from a game made 10 years ago. While this wasn't a major sticking point for me personally, I can understand how it was immersion breaking.

Here is an example I found of what I thought was an excellent way to animate wave spawning. It's the Diablo 3 Barbarian Video which I'm sure many of you have seen. Just watch the first minute to get the picture of what I believe is a wave system that actually enhances player immersion.

[steelfire_dragon]

my assemssent of the waves of enemies is that they just made the fights seem unending and the bandits and rogues and local scum dropping out of no where was just plain annoying. haveing them spawn from around the corner would of been more beleiveable....

[Scnew]

I'm sure it's been covered already, but.

Use waves when it's appropriate. Undead streaming out of the castle in Redcliffe was a good reason for waves. Powerful mage summoning demons after his hired help goes down makes sense. Random thugs dropping off rooftops constantly or appearing in thin are does not make sense.

There's really nothing wrong with waves in general. It just has to make sense, and it can't be all the time. It also doesn't make sense when a group of six brigands just saw you put down three waves of their buddies and decide that picking a fight with you is a great idea.

[Klimy]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

Yes. I have no issue with waves. But when they just drop out of the air or from second/third floor... well, it's ok (in the end it's just a game), but it gave me a "wtf" moment first few times

[Zeevico]

1. They break immersion. It's lazy.
2. Coming from locked doors or windows...it's irritating.
3. Waves make sense when you're fighting a group arriving in waves. In most cases that means a group that isn't aware of your existence, because wave fights make no ****ing sense against four people. Against four people you overwhelm the opposition--you don't come in one by one.
4. As to "realism" vs "it's a game": look, it is what it is. If it takes itself seriously then it follows that the npcs should react and behave in a somewhat human-like manner. Now there are obvious flaws--fridge logic flaws if you will- in any RPG. But human beings don't assault a small group of 4 in waves that immediately follow one another. "That assassin? Yeah, he was having a smoko. That's why he wasn't attacking you for the last ten minutes. Yeah, ever since mooks unionised times have been rough."

Modifié par Zeevico, 07 avril 2011 - 07:32 .

[FedericoV]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Just out of curiosity, is the wave issue more problematic due to the enemies appearing from thin air or simply because you don't know how many more are coming and can't properly position yourself?

Just want to say that wave mechaninc adds a layer of strategy that was completely absent in DA:O and that I appreciated it alot. But honestly, when I arrived at act. 3 it was becoming a little bit boring since the template was allways the same more or less. Probably, the point is not the wave mechainc but the amount of filler combat that you have to endure during the game.

Enemy appearing from nowhere is not elegant but it's not a game breaker for me. Even positioning it's not a great problem. I understand the purpose that it's to make fights more challenging, interesting and varied. The problem is that a lot of players do not like those "abstract" and really "rpgish" features in videogames...

[Poubo]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

Yes Luke!! great summary, however, it may be worth emphasing the fewer enemies part... everyone i fought felt like they had their own personal army, it was rediculous.

enemies coming down from nowhere was very very immersion breaking, but sometimes ambushes in streets was okay, but it was like "how many people could they have on that roof?"

with this said, the way combat works, the wave enemy format is quite effective. but then again, i didnt enjoy the "improved combat" but i suspect that is something for a completely different thread

[The Sum of all Evil]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

That wolud be great! Also perhaps let us also have our waves. Why not let our companions rush to our aid, sequence based on proximity of their mansion to the battle. Also think about ending reinforcements after boss has died (some bosses, especially the thug type).

[Perles75]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

BIG thimbs up!

[Perles75]

taine wrote...

Luke Barrett wrote...

- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

This I think should be the main point of emphasis. For one, there was too much combat in DA2. Secondly, most of that combat was pointless filler (random thugs in the streets, waves of spiders or corpses, etc.). .

I think that's a major point that can be applied to the concept of DA2 in general... in the course of playing I had the distinct feeling that combat was used somehow out of laziness, in the sense that it appeared to me to be a sort of easy solution to resolve quests (and the "small introductory combats plus big combat with tough enemy at the end" routine is really too much Street Fighter!).
I really would like to see more variety to get a quest solved! (I also have the solution... noncombat skills)

But this is a bit OT...

[Perles75]

sorry, double post

Modifié par Perles75, 07 avril 2011 - 11:01 .

[Louis deGuerre]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Thanks for the responses everyone! I suspect (and this is purely speculative) that the wave-type system will stay in the franchise going forward but we're certainly always looking for feedback and ways too improve.

What I'm currently writing as my personal report, given this feedback:
- enemies should not, under any circumstances, appear from thin air - I give exception to Spirits and other enemies which can come from the ground but perhaps some visual cue such as how skeletons are lying in bonepiles on the floor before the encounter starts.
- use a wave dynamic sparingly, it was almost clockwork that every encounter came in waves and this simply was not fun; in relation to that, more fights that consist of harder (and fewer) enemies

does that sound like an accurate assessment of what you would like to see?

(and yes, this is just summarized. My reports are much more long-winded and full of linguistic wizardy )

The spawn mechanic flushes tactics down the drain as enemies will spawn right on top of your mage/archers.
Slaughtering hordes of weak enemies is total boredom.
The spawn mechanic makes it almost impossible to play with friendly fire on. Which makes the combat even more unrealistic, stupid and boring than it already is. I'd like to play on nightmare as hard is too easy (except the bosses with a gazillion HP which is boring as hell), but I won't even try because of the friendly fire drama.
Used very sparingly the waves can be good (like for bosses only) and then only if they don't appear out of thin air.
The lack of an ability to zoom out makes it impossible to use tactics during the battles. For example, you are not able to target an area spell on people standing higher than you. VERY often I am unable to select something as I can't zoom out and selecting is buggy as hell anyways.
An interesting end boss does not have a zillion HP but interesting abilities.
Finishing moves back in, idiotic exploding enemies out.
More grit and steel, less manga bs. 

I greatly enjoyed battles in DAO.
If I ever do a 2nd playtrough of DA2 I will set the difficulty to casual immediately as my interest in this silly combat system is zero.

[NKKKK]

Ok so, waves of enemies = good says Bioware.

No...it's bad.

Good?

Facepalm...

[Dubya75]

Dalira Montanti wrote...

plain simple i hated it
I found it annoying as i played through the game and i lost intrest fast because i did not want to encounter any more mobs of idiotic npc's

this mod idea has mad the game rather boring for me I even sent back my copy of DA2 because I just could not see my self playing it again

How on earth is having waves of enemies more boring than having them all set out like chess pieces? Serioulsy, people talk about immersion, immsersion, immserion...then BioWare introduce a mechanic that enhances combat immersion and people complain....boring? What?!

Well, I don't even know what I'm getting all worked up about, the devs have already confirmed they intend to keep enemy waves in the game, and I'm very happy about that!

[Dubya75]

NKKKK wrote...

Ok so, waves of enemies = good says Bioware.

No...it's bad.

Good?

Facepalm...

You're gonna have to explain your claim that it's "bad". 

[Abston82]

I thought it was ok. I thought it's implementation was kind of lazy though, it really only resulted in saving cooldowns because you knew it was a) inevitable and rogues that are going to backstab your healer. It didn't really make the encounter feel like more of an encounter like the adds on rock wraith did.

[JasmoVT]

Frankly I do not see a lot of wave "appearing from nowhere" I do see them leaping off of roof tops and cliffs, apearing in clusters in doorways or tunnel entrances, stealth characters suddenly unstealthing behind you, all of which is a realistic presentation of more enemies arriving on the scene.