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[Kijin]

In Dragon Age Origins, Flemeth forces Morrigan to travel with the Warden. In doing so, Morrigan discovers Flemeth's Grimoire which reveals that Flemeth intended to take over Morrigan's body. In response, Morrigan tries to kill Flemeth. Even if the Warden succeeds, Flemeth never truly dies - Flemeth gives Hawke an amulet during Lothering's destruction, which Hawke uses to bring Flemeth back to life on Sundermount. Flemeth knew that Morrigan would try to take her life, and she planned for that inevitability. This must mean that Flemeth also knew that Morrigan would find the Grimoire in the Tower.

This is not the first time that Flemeth has shown considerable insight into the future. When talking with Maric during Stolen Throne, Flemeth reveals that Loghain will betray him three times. In the novel, Loghain only betrays Maric twice - the third betrayal was at Ostagar, when Loghain abandoned the field, leaving Cailan to die at the hands of the Darkspawn. Flemeth made similar predictions the first time she met Hawke at Lothering, "Hurtled into the chaos, you fight... and the world will shape before you." Flemeth knew that Hawke would change the world long before Hawke became the Champion of Kirkwall. 

Further evidence of Flemeth's ability to predict and manipulate the future can be seen at Sundermount. When asked why she Wanted Hawke to perform the ritual that brought her back to life, Flemeth states: "A bit of security, should the inevitable occur. And if I know my Morrigan, it already has." Flemeth began this plan during Lothering's destruction, long before the Warden confronted her about the Grimoire they found in the Circle Tower. Flemeth knew that Morrigan would find the Grimoire, and knew that her daughter would try to kill her. This proves two points:

A) The ritual on the Sundermount was designed to bring her back to life - Flemeth is mortal, and can be killed, despite her long age. This proves she is not immortal, which means she is not the Maker. 

and

Flemeth knew that Morrigan would try to convince the Warden to kill her if Morrigan were to find the Grimoire. This means that Flemeth forced Morrigan to travel with the Warden, in hopes that she would find the Grimoire. Flemeth's 'death' at the Warden's hand was merely part of Flemeth's plan

We know that Flemeth is mortal, and that she can predict part of the future. Her mortality suggests that she is merely a puppet that can see the strings, and not the puppet master. This suggests that Flemeth is not Andraste. Andraste was a messiah who stirred up an army to fight against the Tevinter Imperium in the name of the Maker. Flemeth achieves her objectives through manipulation and trickery. Moreover, Flemeth has demonstrated repeatedly that all of her actions are ultimately self serving. Most importantly, if Flemeth were Andraste, she would use her status as a living messiah to help her achieve her objectives. Also, Andraste is dead - her ashes are protected by a sacred guardian who is capable of revealing the innermost thoughts and fears of anyone who enters. Not only that, but the ashes found in the urn possess mystical healing properties - which are the same healing properties that Andraste herself possessed. 

We also know that Flemeth cannot be an Abomination. In the Witch Hunt DLC, it is revealed that Morrigan entered the Eluvian Mirror (presumably using magic she learned from Flemeth's real Grimoire). During her conversation with the Warden, Morrigan says: "I thought I knew what Flemeth planned. I thought what she craved was immortality. And yet I was wrong. So very wrong. She is no blood mage, no abomination... She is not even truly human. The ritual was but a means to an end, a herald for what is to come." This DLC also proves that Flemeth never intended to possess Morrigan's body - that was merely a ruse designed to get Morrigan to try to kill her. 

Morrigan is not alone in this opinion. After seeing her rebirth, Anders asks, "What are you? A spirit? An abomination? This is no magic I've ever seen!" Fenris also has questions upon seeing her resurrection: "You a more than a mere Witch. I have seen powerful mages, spirits and abominations, but you are neither one of those. Who are you?"

From all of this, we can conclude that Flemeth is not simply a powerful abomination. We also know that she is not human. Yet she required Hawke to perform a resurection ritual on Sundermount. This indicates that she is mortal, which suggests that she is not simply a God in the form of a human.

Flemeth has shown that she is capable of changing her appearance. When Hawke first meets Flemeth in DA2, she looks much younger than she did whenever the Warden meets with her in DAO. If Flemeth were a human, she could not have accomplished this, as humans cannot shapeshift into the form of another human. Morrigan says as much during a conversation she had with the Warden: "I gain nothing by studying another human. I already am the same as they are, I learn nothing. So the answer is no, my human form is the only one I possess." Flemeth would only be able to change the appearance of her human form if she herself was not human. This reinforces what Morrigan said in Witch Hunt about Flemeth not being human.

What else could Flemeth be? In DAO, Flemeth transforms into a high dragon if the Warden decides to kill her to save Morrigan. When Hawke first meets Flemeth in DA2, she appears in the form of a high dragon. When asked about her ability to shapeshift by Hawke, Flemeth responds, "Perhaps I am a dragon. If so, count yourself lucky. The smell of burning darkspawn does nothing for the appetite." When Hawke asks Flemeth if she could teach him/her that trick, Flemeth will tell Hawke that it cannot be done if Hawke is a Warrior/Rogue or will remark that Hawke was a clever tongue for a Mage and she will change the subject. 

Flemeth's refusal to tell a Mage Hawke whether it is possible for him/her to transform into a dragon is quite telling. Some have interpreted this to mean that any mage with enough power could transform into a dragon. However, if it is not possible for a Human Mage to transform into a Dragon, then Hawke would begin to wonder why Flemeth could transform into a dragon if no other human mage could. If the latter is true, Flemeth would not reveal this information. However, if anyone could transform into a Dragon given enough training, then Flemeth would have said so. If a Dragon was merely an extremely difficult Shapeshifting form, then Flemeth would have lost nothing by telling that to Hawke. The only reason why Flemeth would avoid answering that question would be if she stood to lose something from having the truth revealed. 

In summary: Morrigan reveals that Flemeth is not human, which means she cannot simply be a powerful human mage or an abomination. Both Anders and Fenris remark that her magic is unlike anything they have ever seen, which means she cannot be a demon or a spirit that has crossed over into their realm (keep in mind that Anders has extensive experience with spirits and demons, given his time with Justice). Flemeth cannot be the Maker, as Flemeth can be killed, while the Maker is presumably mortal. Flemeth is not Andraste, as Flemeth would undoubtedly use her status as a living messiah to her advantage. Flemeth can transform into a dragon. More importantly, she seems to prefer that form over her human form. Based on all of this evidence, I believe that Flemeth is a Dragon.

However, there are still other theories regarding Flemeth's origins. Flemeth could be an Old God, a Forgotten One or even an Elven God such as Fen'Harel. The Old Gods and the Forgotten Ones were sealed away around the same time as one another - this clearly suggests that the Forgotten Ones and the Old Gods are one in the same. This leaves two other theories, aside from my Dragon theory: Flemeth could be an Old God, or an Elven God. 

I will not go into more detail about this subject, but I will leave you with this question: who says the Old Gods are human? For more information, check out this thread by Lorvincent: 
http://social.biowar...62136/1#6862136

This Post was inspired by a conversation I had with Lorvincent and others in this thread:
http://social.biowar...index/5740722/1

Thanks for reading my rambling mess!

Modifié par Kijin, 01 avril 2011 - 01:39 .

[Blacklash93]

Wouldn't surprise me.

She's certainly not subltle on how much she likes them.

Even when you summon her out of the amulet a gold, a transparent dragon figure starts swirling around her again for seemingly no reason. Then there's the horns...

Modifié par Blacklash93, 01 avril 2011 - 05:04 .

[Talladarr]

It is distinctly possible she's one of the purified Old Gods, like Morrigan's baby. Thin kabout it for a moment, when you ask her in DA:O what an Archdemon is, she replies that "they are Old Gods awakened and tainted by Darkspawn. Believe that or not, history says it is a powerful and fearsome thing, and only fools ignore history" I mean seriously though, where else would Flemeth have learned the right to teach Morrigan?

[kedcoleman]

 I'm firmly of the Fen'Harel is Flemeth camp.  Part is, admittedly, a hunch.  But consider:  she's manipulative, she's a shapeshifter, she has prescient knowledge, she seems to have a strong connection to the Dalish and she often speaks in riddles.  
She convinced her own daughter that Flemeth intended to possess her body just so Morrigan would "kill" her and take a secret, powerful ritual Flemeth wanted her to have and use all along.  I believe, also, she engineered the death of the previous Divine and the selection of the current (with her...murky past).
Fen'Harel, the Dread Wolf, is a Trickster god.  It bears a number of parallels with norse beliefs, particularly Loki who, much as Fen'Harel, was a part of both sides of an ancient divide between gods.  Loki's also associated with Fenrir, a great wolf.  Tricksters in many world faiths often have shapeshifting abilities (most notably Native American traditions, though several European beliefs as well).  
Her prescient abilities could be truly divine knowledge, or being knowledgeable and old enough to see patterns and predict the most likely outcomes.  Probably a bit of both.  Depending how many pies she has her fingers in, she could twist events in Thedas to suit her needs.  Without her intervention, would the lyrium idol have been found?  Would the Mages and Templars have warred?  Would the Warden have gotten the help he needed to stop the Blight before it consumed Ferelden and more?  Very unlikely in all cases.  
Why does she have such a strong connection to the Dalish?  They clearly have a measure of reverence for her.  Merrill bows and placates herself before Flemeth.  Flemeth seems to have a strong respect for the elves, also.  The Chasind, one would think, would have a better connection to her, since they live more in proximity to her than the Dalish.  And yet, the Chasind fear and hate her, the Dalish revere her.  

She also reacts most agreeably to "sarcastic Hawke".  A lot of the things she says are riddles and plays on words.  Just what one would expect from a trickster god.  

Am I wrong?  quite likely.  But, it's just as liekly as any other theory 

[Alren]

@ Talladarr

I agree, I think Flemeth is the same as Morrigan's baby. Only problem is . . .

If it was her plan to have Morrigan use her Grimoire to perform the dark ritual and create an old god baby, why go through the problem of sending her with the warden to then find the black grimoire by luck and then learn of the ruse to steal Morrigans body, only to allow herself to be slain by the warden so that her true grimoire can be given to Morrigan so that the dark ritual can be performed before slaying the archdemon

why not just give her the grimoire in the beggining?

[kedcoleman]

@ Alren:
Letting Morrigan "find" it makes it much more likely she'll actually use it. She'll feel like she dug up some dark secret knowledge of Flemeth's that she shouldn't have. Flemeth and Morrigan have ... tension, at best. Think of her like a teenage daughter. Whatever you tell her to do, she'll make a point of doing the opposite, just for spite. Flemeth had to make it look like she was hiding what she really wanted Morrigan to have.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Morrigan was sent already knowing the ritual, she was sent with the Warden to make the god baby. Finding her 'True' grimoire was 'unplanned' by Flemeth (at least Morrigan thought it was).
My guess, Flemeth had to draw too much attention to her and her abilities in aiding the Warden so she set a secondary plan to 'remove' herself from the board, or appear to. The one book Flemeth 'looses' control of is the one with the information on jumping bodies that she needs in order to survive? Doubtful. But Morrigan's conclusion to the information was never in doubt, leading her to get the Warden to 'kill' her (or make a deal to let her go while saying he/she did) and give Morrigan another book.
A week or so after Ostagar, Flemeth just happens to be flying in High Dragon form over Lothering (but is never seen) and sees the Hawke family. While the encounter may not have been planned, per say, she took advantage of the opportunity to start her contingency plan if the Warden 'kills' her.
My idle curiosity is, what if the Warden didn't kill her? Does that mean there are two Flemeths now?

[lorvincent]

Just a thought to mull on...

Fen Harel was said to be capable of passing between the 2 groups, the Forgotten Ones and the Elven Gods...

In my post, linked above by Kijin, you can find a post by Gaider that supports the belief that the Forgotten Ones may in fact be the Old Gods. If they are, then that means Fen Harel, by all rights, should have a dragon form, or some draconic connection. My personal belief is that the Elven Gods, being "of the earth" as gaider explained, were powerful spirits that personified the environment. Maybe Fen Harel was a dragon abomination?

Or maybe just a dragon. Maybe an Old God?

There are many possibilities, but regardless, she clearly has an important connection to dragons.

My last point of discussion can be found here, but please read the links provided on this page a bit before responding:

http://social.biowar...84652/1#6884652

Modifié par lorvincent, 01 avril 2011 - 03:07 .

[Bayz]

Talladarr wrote...

It is distinctly possible she's one of the purified Old Gods, like Morrigan's baby.

Maybe, why not? Morrigan then shouldn't be her blood but that doesn't contradict anything we know so far.

[Danjaru]

Her being an old god or a purified one like Morrigan's child I can probably buy if they decide to go with that twist.

But just a plain High Dragon wouldn't make much sense cause we've killed like 5 of those and not one has shown any indication that they could become human, nor have we seen anyone else being like Flemeth.

[jadefishes]

I've leaned toward the Old God idea since DAO. She's not just some witch or abomination, I don't see her as simply a dragon. Even the high dragons in DA don't carry on conversations, and they're hardly subtle tacticians.

Whatever she is, I can only hope/expect that we see more of her as the DA story continues. She seems to see the web of story as it's spun, but without actual omniscience. Not an all-knowing deity, but rather a superb supernatural chess player, planning dozens if not hundreds of steps ahead.

[Bayz]

Danjaru wrote...

Her being an old god or a purified one like Morrigan's child I can probably buy if they decide to go with that twist.

But just a plain High Dragon wouldn't make much sense cause we've killed like 5 of those and not one has shown any indication that they could become human, nor have we seen anyone else being like Flemeth.

They are like  Dolphins in level of sentinence according to the DA wiki. So no, Flemmeth can't be a High Dragon.

[Kijin]

kedcoleman wrote...

 I'm firmly of the Fen'Harel is Flemeth camp.  Part is, admittedly, a hunch.  But consider:  she's manipulative, she's a shapeshifter, she has prescient knowledge, she seems to have a strong connection to the Dalish and she often speaks in riddles.  
She convinced her own daughter that Flemeth intended to possess her body just so Morrigan would "kill" her and take a secret, powerful ritual Flemeth wanted her to have and use all along.  I believe, also, she engineered the death of the previous Divine and the selection of the current (with her...murky past).
Fen'Harel, the Dread Wolf, is a Trickster god.  It bears a number of parallels with norse beliefs, particularly Loki who, much as Fen'Harel, was a part of both sides of an ancient divide between gods.  Loki's also associated with Fenrir, a great wolf.  Tricksters in many world faiths often have shapeshifting abilities (most notably Native American traditions, though several European beliefs as well).  
Her prescient abilities could be truly divine knowledge, or being knowledgeable and old enough to see patterns and predict the most likely outcomes.  Probably a bit of both.  Depending how many pies she has her fingers in, she could twist events in Thedas to suit her needs.  Without her intervention, would the lyrium idol have been found?  Would the Mages and Templars have warred?  Would the Warden have gotten the help he needed to stop the Blight before it consumed Ferelden and more?  Very unlikely in all cases.  
Why does she have such a strong connection to the Dalish?  They clearly have a measure of reverence for her.  Merrill bows and placates herself before Flemeth.  Flemeth seems to have a strong respect for the elves, also.  The Chasind, one would think, would have a better connection to her, since they live more in proximity to her than the Dalish.  And yet, the Chasind fear and hate her, the Dalish revere her.  

She also reacts most agreeably to "sarcastic Hawke".  A lot of the things she says are riddles and plays on words.  Just what one would expect from a trickster god.  

Am I wrong?  quite likely.  But, it's just as liekly as any other theory 

If Flemeth had not interfered, the lyrium idol would have been found and the Mages and Templars would have warred. Bartrand is the one who organized the expedition down to the Deep Roads. Hawke may have helped find an alternate path when the path they were going to take was blocked off, but that would have been beyond Flemeth's power. It is unreasonable to think that Flemeth encouraged Hawke to embrace his destiny because she foresaw that a small expedition led by an unimportant Dwarf would encounter a problem when a cave-in blocks their intended route.

If Hawke had not come along, Bartrand probably would have discovered the lyrium idol, and he would have sold it to Meredith, which would have droven her mad. The lyrium idol sword was responsible for the rebellion - without it, Meredith would have been far more reasonable. She still would not trust the mages, but she would not have been as quick to condemn them to death. So, the Mages and Templars still would have fought. Hawke's presence did not create the tensions between the Mages and the Templars - he merely intensified them. Hawke turned the phenomenon into a global revolt - that is the destiny Flemeth was referring to.

Without Flemeth's help, the Warden might have never received the help he/she needed - this much is true. The problem I have with the Fen'Harel theory is that it assumes that the Dalish are bowing to Flemeth because they revere her as a god - nothing could be further from the truth. When you first meet Merril, she tells you that you need to hurry to complete your task for Asha-Bellanar, as those who cross her do not live. The Dalish do not worship Flemeth - they fear her. 

Also, if Flemeth is Fen'Harel, why has Fen'Harel chosen to appear in female form? I understand that he is a trickster God, but it just seems like a strange choice. Fen'Harel is also known as the Dread Wolf - so why constantly appear in the form of a dragon? Flemeth's motives will always be strange, but if Flemeth is Fen'Harel, then I have no idea what she is trying to accomplish.

[Kijin]

Bayz wrote...


Sorry 

Danjaru wrote...

Her being an old god or a purified one like Morrigan's child I can probably buy if they decide to go with that twist.

But just a plain High Dragon wouldn't make much sense cause we've killed like 5 of those and not one has shown any indication that they could become human, nor have we seen anyone else being like Flemeth.

They are like  Dolphins in level of sentinence according to the DA wiki. So no, Flemmeth can't be a High Dragon.

Sorry for the double post, but I need to respond to this comment. 

The issue of dragon sentience has already been proven by Lorvincent and myself in this thread:

http://social.biowar...index/5740722/1

For those of you too lazy to read through that thread, read this codex instead:

http://dragonage.wik...y:_Dragon_Cults

Dragon Cults exist all throughout Thedas. Dragon worship began with the Tevinter Imperium, but it exists in areas that have never even heard of the Tevinter Imperium.  These isolated Dragon Cults all use the same rituals. If dragons are not sentient, how is it that all Dragon Cults use the same rituals, even though many of these cults have never heard of the Tevinter Imperium? 

More importantly, the issue of dragon sentience is not confirmed in the lore. Here is a quote from the codex above:

"Is there more to draconic intelligence than we have heretofore guessed at? No member of a dragon cult has ever been taken alive, and what accounts exist from the days of the Nevarran hunters record only mad rants and impossible tales of godhood. With dragons only recently reappearing and still incredibly rare, we may never know the truth, but the question remains."

High Dragons are incapable of speaking a language that we understand - but this does not change the fact that they are sentient. 

Edit: Humans can cast magic, as can Quanari and Elves. It is not unreasonable to think that a sentient dragon would also be capable of casting magic. If Flemeth is a high dragon, then her human form would be the result of shapeshifting magic. Keep in mind, Flemeth changes the appearance of her human form, even though this cannot be accomplished by a human using shapeshifting magic.

Modifié par Kijin, 01 avril 2011 - 05:38 .

[The Angry One]

Kijin wrote...

Keep in mind, Flemeth changes the appearance of her human form, even though this cannot be accomplished by a human using shapeshifting magic.

Where is this said?
Morrigan states that she doesn't change human forms because she doesn't want to, not because she can't.

[Dhanni]

I vote for the Old God theory.

[Kijin]

The Angry One wrote...

Kijin wrote...

Keep in mind, Flemeth changes the appearance of her human form, even though this cannot be accomplished by a human using shapeshifting magic.

Where is this said?
Morrigan states that she doesn't change human forms because she doesn't want to, not because she can't.

We're both interpreting the same passage - but your interpretation is rather simplistic. 

Shapeshifting allows you to become a different creature - but what Morrigan makes clear is that even if you shapeshift into the form of an animal, you are still yourself.  Transforming into a wolf does not give you the intelligence of a wolf - you merely gain the body of one. Morrigan is already human, so any attempt to transform herself into a different human form would fail.

Edit: This topic is dicussed by Lorvincent in great detail in this thread, if you are curious:

http://social.biowar...index/5740722/2

Modifié par Kijin, 01 avril 2011 - 06:05 .

[Herr Uhl]

The Angry One wrote...

Kijin wrote...

Keep in mind, Flemeth changes the appearance of her human form, even though this cannot be accomplished by a human using shapeshifting magic.

Where is this said?
Morrigan states that she doesn't change human forms because she doesn't want to, not because she can't.

And even if Morrigan can't, does that make her the top authority on shapeshifting?

Who is it that can turn into a dragon? Flemeth. Who taught Morrigan all Morrigan knows? Flemeth. Why does Morrigan say that she can't do it? So that there won't be any bright ideas about her charading as other people.

[Mnemnosyne]

The Angry One wrote...

Kijin wrote...

Keep in mind, Flemeth changes the appearance of her human form, even though this cannot be accomplished by a human using shapeshifting magic.

Where is this said?
Morrigan states that she doesn't change human forms because she doesn't want to, not because she can't.

That's not what Morrigan said.  She says she gains nothing by studying another human because they are already the same as her, so her human form is the only one she has.  That, of course, does not mean it is not possible for a human to have more than one human form - it simply means Morrigan does not have that ability, and probably does not know of such an ability if it is possible.

I more question Flemeth changing her appearance.  Yeah, she has a new model in DA2, but that doesn't necessarily correspond to an in-character change of appearance.

Shapeshifting is also not the only way to present a false appearance.  Remember the crazy hermit in the Brecilian Forest, who is using illusions to appear to teleport.  Even if Flemeth's appearance actually did change in-character, it's entirely possible that she was using an illusion to appear as a 'plain' old woman to the Warden.

[Blacklash93]

Bayz wrote...

Danjaru wrote...

Her being an old god or a purified one like Morrigan's child I can probably buy if they decide to go with that twist.

But just a plain High Dragon wouldn't make much sense cause we've killed like 5 of those and not one has shown any indication that they could become human, nor have we seen anyone else being like Flemeth.

They are like  Dolphins in level of sentinence according to the DA wiki. So no, Flemmeth can't be a High Dragon.

There are questions surrounding that. It's supposed to be a mystery (the codex clearly presents it as such) and I doubt the devs would go spoiling that dragons could actually be sentient before Origins was even released. Nothing is certain.

Flemeth can't be a normal high dragon, though. That's for sure because normal dragons can't use magic. Old Gods can, however.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 01 avril 2011 - 06:10 .

[Herr Uhl]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Bayz wrote...

They are like  Dolphins in level of sentinence according to the DA wiki. So no, Flemmeth can't be a High Dragon.

There are questions surrounding that. It's supposed to be a mystery and I doubt the devs would go spoiling that dragons could actually be sentient before Origins was even released. Nothing is certain.

Flemeth can't be a normal high dragon, though. That's for sure because normal dragons can't use magic. Old Gods can, however.

They did spoil it.

Here is the quote from David:
'Dragons are cunning to the point of having deductive reasoning, arguably even sentience, without having the ability to communicate or possess a civilization. They are like dolphins -- that will eat you.'
- David Gaider

Link to the thread.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 01 avril 2011 - 06:16 .

[Kijin]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Bayz wrote...

They are like  Dolphins in level of sentinence according to the DA wiki. So no, Flemmeth can't be a High Dragon.

There are questions surrounding that. It's supposed to be a mystery and I doubt the devs would go spoiling that dragons could actually be sentient before Origins was even released. Nothing is certain.

Flemeth can't be a normal high dragon, though. That's for sure because normal dragons can't use magic. Old Gods can, however.

They did spoil it.

Here is the quote from David:
'Dragons are cunning to the point of having deductive reasoning, arguably even sentience, without having the ability to communicate or possess a civilization. They are like dolphins -- that will eat you.'
- David Gaider

Link to the thread.

Gaider spoiled nothing. Note the emphasis I added. According to Gaider, Dragons might possess sentience - he did not make a definitive statement. We already knew that dragons might be sentient - the DAO Codexes makes that clear.

[Herr Uhl]

Kijin wrote...

Gaider spoiled nothing. Note the emphasis I added. According to Gaider, Dragons might possess sentience - he did not make a definitive statement. We already knew that dragons might be sentient - the DAO Codexes makes that clear.

"Most dragons aren't gods, god-like, or even magical. They are just animals, with (as David mentioned a while ago) the intelligence of dolphins. Clever and cunning, but still animals. The old gods simply took the form of dragons. Really large ones, most likely. 

A Rampage happens when a normal run-of-the-mill dragon decides it needs to eat a lot and that the world is its buffet table."
-Sheryl Chee

Link to thread.

[Kijin]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Kijin wrote...

Gaider spoiled nothing. Note the emphasis I added. According to Gaider, Dragons might possess sentience - he did not make a definitive statement. We already knew that dragons might be sentient - the DAO Codexes makes that clear.

"Most dragons aren't gods, god-like, or even magical. They are just animals, with (as David mentioned a while ago) the intelligence of dolphins. Clever and cunning, but still animals. The old gods simply took the form of dragons. Really large ones, most likely. 

A Rampage happens when a normal run-of-the-mill dragon decides it needs to eat a lot and that the world is its buffet table."
-Sheryl Chee

Link to thread.

Reading comprehension fail. Here is the reality. Fact 1: Most humans aren't gods, god-like or even magical. That was never surprising. That the same is true for Dragons is hardly surprising.

In that same thread, Gaider make it clear that dragons are so intelligent, they might be considered sentient. All of the DAO and DA2 Codexes make it clear that dragons could be sentient. I will say it again - dragons are sentient.

You keep on referencing Developer posts like that means anything. The developers are not going to spoil a crucial plot twist on a forum. If you believe otherwise, then you're gullible. 

Lorvincent and I have proven that they are sentient already in another thread which I linked to in the OP. Here is the link again:

http://social.biowar...index/5740722/1

Instead of posting meaningless developer quotes, come up with an argument using the game's lore. Prove to me, using the game's lore, that dragons are not sentient.

Edit: I have already provided many arguments on why dragons are sentient - in this thread and in the thread posted above. Most importantly: Dragon Cults exist all throughout Thedas, even in areas that had no connection to the Tevinter Imperium. These isolated Dragon Cultists did not learn about worshipping dragons from the Tevinter Imperium, as they did know even know the Imperium existed. So why do these cults exist, and why do they all use the same rituals? In Dragon Cults, the Cultists rear and protect the eggs, and in exchange for this service, they may drink the blood of the dragon, which grants them extraordinary power. If Dragons are sentient, then the formation of these cults makes sense. The dragons would be intelligent enough to way the pros and cons of letting humans protect her children. If dragons were simply animals, then they would kill the cultists without another thought.

Before anyone talks about humans living with wolves and other animals, keep this in mind: humans who live with animals in our worlds are experts. The Cultists who live with Dragons are not. You cannot study the behavior of Dragons, so it is unreasonable to think that an entire group of people, who have no knowledge of dragon behavior, can live with dragons for decades without being killed. If dragons are not sentient, then dragon cults make no sense.

Modifié par Kijin, 01 avril 2011 - 06:58 .

[Avissel]

I've got my money on it being related to Fen'Harel