145 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayz]

Kijin wrote...

Sorry for the double post, but I need to respond to this comment. 

The issue of dragon sentience has already been proven by Lorvincent and myself in this thread:

http://social.biowar...index/5740722/1

For those of you too lazy to read through that thread, read this codex instead:

http://dragonage.wik...y:_Dragon_Cults

Dragon Cults exist all throughout Thedas. Dragon worship began with the Tevinter Imperium, but it exists in areas that have never even heard of the Tevinter Imperium.  These isolated Dragon Cults all use the same rituals. If dragons are not sentient, how is it that all Dragon Cults use the same rituals, even though many of these cults have never heard of the Tevinter Imperium? 

More importantly, the issue of dragon sentience is not confirmed in the lore. Here is a quote from the codex above:

"Is there more to draconic intelligence than we have heretofore guessed at? No member of a dragon cult has ever been taken alive, and what accounts exist from the days of the Nevarran hunters record only mad rants and impossible tales of godhood. With dragons only recently reappearing and still incredibly rare, we may never know the truth, but the question remains."

High Dragons are incapable of speaking a language that we understand - but this does not change the fact that they are sentient. 

Edit: Humans can cast magic, as can Quanari and Elves. It is not unreasonable to think that a sentient dragon would also be capable of casting magic. If Flemeth is a high dragon, then her human form would be the result of shapeshifting magic. Keep in mind, Flemeth changes the appearance of her human form, even though this cannot be accomplished by a human using shapeshifting magic.

The samme codex says and highlight
"There has not, after all, been a single recorded case of a dragon
attempting to communicate or performing any act that could not likewise
be attributed to a clever beast."

Communicate? Parrots "talk" and there is some kind of crows that do that as well

To the dragon cults outside Tevinter territories I do not honestly know. Doesn't prove sentinence still.

"The changes in the cultists are a form of blood magic, surely, but how
did the symbiotic relationship between the cult and the high dragon form
in the first place?"

I explained it already, there are many ways you can become "friends" with a wild beast. 

[Herr Uhl]

Kijin wrote...

Reading comprehension fail. Here is the reality. Fact 1: Most humans aren't gods, god-like or even magical. That was never surprising. That the same is true for Dragons is hardly surprising.

In that same thread, Gaider make it clear that dragons are so intelligent, they might be considered sentient. All of the DAO and DA2 Codexes make it clear that dragons could be sentient. I will say it again - dragons are sentient.

Yes, as much as dolphins are sentient. Wow, isn't that what I've been saying. I guess that makes Flemeth a dolphin.

Kijin wrote...

Lorvincent and I have proven that they are sentient already in another thread which I linked to in the OP. Here is the link again:

http://social.biowar...index/5740722/1

They are about as smart as dolphins, and I've witnessed nothing to change me from this mindset. I've been through debates on this subject before, and I'm sure you and Lorvincent are very smart, but you two thinking somehting is true doesn't make it so. And you're using the people of Haven as a credible source? Really?

Instead of posting meaningless developer quotes, come up with an argument using the game's lore. Prove to me, using the game's lore, that dragons are not sentient.

The people who made the lore can't possibly have any insight. No, not at all.

[NedPepper]

She is definitley a Loki type character. She's a trickster, but she's also interested from time to time in man's destiny. She's got to be an Old God. Sandal's prophecy seems to back this up.

[Blacklash93]

@Kijin
You haven't proven anything.

It's a mystery. It's not meant proven either way at the moment.

[Bayz]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Kijin wrote...

Reading comprehension fail. Here is the reality. Fact 1: Most humans aren't gods, god-like or even magical. That was never surprising. That the same is true for Dragons is hardly surprising.

In that same thread, Gaider make it clear that dragons are so intelligent, they might be considered sentient. All of the DAO and DA2 Codexes make it clear that dragons could be sentient. I will say it again - dragons are sentient.

Yes, as much as dolphins are sentient. Wow, isn't that what I've been saying. I guess that makes Flemeth a dolphin.

How DARE you. Dolphins ARE sentinent and have an advanced civilization underwater with lazer beams and crap. You will see when the masters arise!! They will reach the surface take breath and go underwater again to eat squids!!! BEHOLD MANKIND!!

ahem...were was I?

Kijin wrote...

Instead
of posting meaningless developer quotes, come up with an argument using
the game's lore. Prove to me, using the game's lore, that
dragons are not sentient.

Ok your wish in the very same Codex Entry you linked.

"There has not, after all, been a single recorded case of a dragon
attempting to communicate or performing any act that could not likewise
be attributed to a clever beast."

Therefore there is more stated proof they are not sentinent but a clever beast than that they are sentinent. Still lore gives you the benefit of the doubt that they might. Is just that in the centuries\\Milenia of interaction between dragons and humans there has been no proof of them actually doing something a clever beast (like a dolphin duh) can't do...

Modifié par Bayz, 01 avril 2011 - 07:08 .

[Blacklash93]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Bayz wrote...

They are like  Dolphins in level of sentinence according to the DA wiki. So no, Flemmeth can't be a High Dragon.

There are questions surrounding that. It's supposed to be a mystery and I doubt the devs would go spoiling that dragons could actually be sentient before Origins was even released. Nothing is certain.

Flemeth can't be a normal high dragon, though. That's for sure because normal dragons can't use magic. Old Gods can, however.

They did spoil it.

Here is the quote from David:
'Dragons are cunning to the point of having deductive reasoning, arguably even sentience, without having the ability to communicate or possess a civilization. They are like dolphins -- that will eat you.'
- David Gaider

Link to the thread.

That was back in 2008. The Dragon Cult codex entry is poised to be a mystery, so I'm assuming that's what the devs intended.

Something as big as a possible reveal of dragons' higher intelligence wouldn't be something the writers would want to spoil 7 months before Origins' original release date. Things can also change during development.

Gaider also said this back then:

There is no golem like HK-47. Commence bumming.

Yes, there was no golem in Origins with a superiority complex that was disgusted by fleshy creatures.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 01 avril 2011 - 07:41 .

[supakillaii]

Flemeth has shown that she is capable of changing her appearance. When Hawke first meets Flemeth in DA2, she looks much younger than she did whenever the Warden meets with her in DAO. If Flemeth were a human, she could not have accomplished this, as humans cannot shapeshift into the form of another human. Morrigan says as much during a conversation she had with the Warden: "I gain nothing by studying another human. I already am the same as they are, I learn nothing. So the answer is no, my human form is the only one I possess." Flemeth would only be able to change the appearance of her human form if she herself was not human. This reinforces what Morrigan said in Witch Hunt about Flemeth not being human.

Except you forget that it's a story told by an exaggerating dwarf.

But yeah, she is far, far from a human. I'm guessing, no, estimating, that she's Fen'Harel, an Old God, or an Elven God.

[Bayz]

That's a good point.

[Kijin]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Kijin wrote...

Reading comprehension fail. Here is the reality. Fact 1: Most humans aren't gods, god-like or even magical. That was never surprising. That the same is true for Dragons is hardly surprising.

In that same thread, Gaider make it clear that dragons are so intelligent, they might be considered sentient. All of the DAO and DA2 Codexes make it clear that dragons could be sentient. I will say it again - dragons are sentient.

Yes, as much as dolphins are sentient. Wow, isn't that what I've been saying. I guess that makes Flemeth a dolphin.

Kijin wrote...

Lorvincent and I have proven that they are sentient already in another thread which I linked to in the OP. Here is the link again:

http://social.biowar...index/5740722/1

They are about as smart as dolphins, and I've witnessed nothing to change me from this mindset. I've been through debates on this subject before, and I'm sure you and Lorvincent are very smart, but you two thinking somehting is true doesn't make it so. And you're using the people of Haven as a credible source? Really?

Instead of posting meaningless developer quotes, come up with an argument using the game's lore. Prove to me, using the game's lore, that dragons are not sentient.

The people who made the lore can't possibly have any insight. No, not at all.

The sentience of Dolphins is highly debated within the scientific community, so that really was a horrible comparison for Gaider to make. The point being - Dragons are creatures capable of rational, coherent thought. 

Yes, I am using Kolgrim. And why not? It is unreasonable to think that these Dragon Cults could exist if the High Dragons did not consciously decide to let the humans live. Kolgrim and his followers did more than live with the dragons - Kolgrim took a horm from one of the dragons and uses it to summon the High Dragon. 

I'll say it again - Kolgrim could summon the High Dragon at will. Kolgrim also claimed that he could talk to the dragon. If the dragon were not sentient, then why would it not kill him? 

We are not just using the people of Haven. Read the codexes closer - they make it clear that these Dragon Cults used to be common. In other words, Kolgrim is not the only crazy cult leader who has claimed to "talk" to a High Dragon and lived to tell the tale. This is not simply the case of one lucky dude. These cults used to exist throughout Thedas - and the cults only stopped when Dragon Slayers killed the dragons nearly to extinction.

Now, on to the topic of the developers.In 1977 after the release of Star Wars Episode 4, if you were to have asked George Lucas if Darth Vader was Luke's father, he would have denied it. Why? The reason is simple: in 1977, Episode V had not been released - so that was still a potential plot twist. This is not complicated. The developers are never going to explicitly tell us the plot twists of DA3 before the game is released.

[Blacklash93]

Bayz wrote...

How DARE you. Dolphins ARE sentinent and have an advanced civilization underwater with lazer beams and crap. You will see when the masters arise!! They will reach the surface take breath and go underwater again to eat squids!!! BEHOLD MANKIND!!

ahem...were was I?

I for one welcome our new marine-mammal overlords.

Ok your wish in the very same Codex Entry you linked.

"There has not, after all, been a single recorded case of a dragon
attempting to communicate or performing any act that could not likewise
be attributed to a clever beast."

Therefore there is more stated proof they are not sentinent but a clever beast than that they are sentinent. Still lore gives you the benefit of the doubt that they might. Is just that in the centuriesMilenia of interaction between dragons and humans there has been no proof of them actually doing something a clever beast (like a dolphin duh) can't do...

No one knows much about dragon intelligence outside of the not-very-pleasant encounters because any encounter you're likely to have with them will very likely not be very pleasant. Nobody would touch those things with a 50-foot pole.

"Mystery" is the key work here.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 01 avril 2011 - 07:19 .

[supakillaii]

I know.
Let's challenge the next High Dragon we meet to a game of Chess.

[Kijin]

Bayz wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Kijin wrote...

Reading comprehension fail. Here is the reality. Fact 1: Most humans aren't gods, god-like or even magical. That was never surprising. That the same is true for Dragons is hardly surprising.

In that same thread, Gaider make it clear that dragons are so intelligent, they might be considered sentient. All of the DAO and DA2 Codexes make it clear that dragons could be sentient. I will say it again - dragons are sentient.

Yes, as much as dolphins are sentient. Wow, isn't that what I've been saying. I guess that makes Flemeth a dolphin.

How DARE you. Dolphins ARE sentinent and have an advanced civilization underwater with lazer beams and crap. You will see when the masters arise!! They will reach the surface take breath and go underwater again to eat squids!!! BEHOLD MANKIND!!

ahem...were was I?

Kijin wrote...

Instead
of posting meaningless developer quotes, come up with an argument using
the game's lore. Prove to me, using the game's lore, that
dragons are not sentient.

Ok your wish in the very same Codex Entry you linked.

"There has not, after all, been a single recorded case of a dragon
attempting to communicate or performing any act that could not likewise
be attributed to a clever beast."

Therefore there is more stated proof they are not sentinent but a clever beast than that they are sentinent. Still lore gives you the benefit of the doubt that they might. Is just that in the centuriesMilenia of interaction between dragons and humans there has been no proof of them actually doing something a clever beast (like a dolphin duh) can't do...

Sorry for the double post everyone, but I am awful at forum codes. 

@Blacklash93: I know that it is supposed to be a mystery. I have said that, according to the in-game lore, Dragon sentience has been neither confirmed, nor denied. My personal theory is that dragons are sentient, and that Flemeth is one (albiet an extremely unusual one - possibly an Old God, but obviously capable of casting powerful magic). 

Now, onto Bayz. Sentient dolhpins wielding laser beams would be an amazing edition for Mass Effect 3 - just saying. 

Being the idiot that I am, I failed to see the second page, so I edited one of my posts. I will reprint my edit in this post on the issue of dragon sentience.

I have already provided many arguments on why dragons are sentient - in this thread and in the thread posted above. Most importantly: Dragon Cults exist all throughout Thedas, even in areas that had no connection to the Tevinter Imperium. These isolated Dragon Cultists did not learn about worshipping dragons from the Tevinter Imperium, as they did know even know the Imperium existed. So why do these cults exist, and why do they all use the same rituals? In Dragon Cults, the Cultists rear and protect the eggs, and in exchange for this service, they may drink the blood of the dragon, which grants them extraordinary power. If Dragons are sentient, then the formation of these cults makes sense. The dragons would be intelligent enough to way the pros and cons of letting humans protect her children. If dragons were simply animals, then they would kill the cultists without another thought.

Before anyone talks about humans living with wolves and other animals, keep this in mind: humans who live with animals in our worlds are experts. The Cultists who live with Dragons are not. You cannot study the behavior of Dragons, so it is unreasonable to think that an entire group of people, who have no knowledge of dragon behavior, can live with dragons for decades without being killed. If dragons are not sentient, then dragon cults make no sense.

Dragons have routinely demonstrated human-like behavior. Every Dragon has a hoard (horde?). THe Dragon in Brecillian forest had a horde, and the High Dragon had a hoard. In both cases, part of this hoard was locked away in chests. Hell, the dragons in DA 2 had hoards (albeit small ones). Why would a non-sentient creature purposefully seek out items that we consider valuable? Obviously many of those were taken from the dead bodies of treasure hunters, but why gather them up and defend them? Why put them in large piles? If you want to talk about biology in DA, then let's do so. What evolutionary mechanism would this serve? If dolphins had limbs, would they attempt to gather a large amount of wealth? Of course not - it's an animal.

The Dragons were not collecting hoards to attract mates - the females do not attract the mates and all High Dragons are female - and every High Dragon we've encountered has had a hoard. So, it's something that all dragons do. If they're sentient, this act makes perfect sense. If they're animals, then it seems completely arbitrary.

[Blacklash93]

supakillaii wrote...

I know.
Let's challenge the next High Dragon we meet to a game of Chess.

Sadly, dragons don't have thumbs... or appropriately-sized hands.

[Kijin]

Blacklash93 wrote...

supakillaii wrote...

I know.
Let's challenge the next High Dragon we meet to a game of Chess.

Sadly, dragons don't have thumbs... or appropriately-sized hands.

Bioware drops the ball again 

[Bayz]

Blacklash93 wrote...

I for one welcome our new marine-mammal overlords.

All hail Flipper VIII overlord of the green dry depth!

Blacklash93 wrote...
No one knows much about dragon intelligence outside of the not-very-pleasant encounters because any encounter you're likely to have with them will very likely not be very pleasant. Nobody would touch those things with a 50-foot pole.

I know right? I was melting for having Andraste (the dragon) talk me dirty during the fight:crying:

Blacklash93 wrote...
"Mystery" is the key work here.

*childish voice*  "He challenged me and told me mean things"

To all the Sentinent Dragon Lovers here is what canon says. There is no proof that they are, but they might be...so patience and do not assume stuff from mindwank.

@Kijin

answered it somewhere where you posted the same thing. The only thing I can't really rebuff is the simmilarity of cults outside old Tevinter territory. Still it doesn't proof sentience.

Modifié par Bayz, 01 avril 2011 - 07:26 .

[Blacklash93]

Bayz wrote...

I know right? I was melting for having Andraste (the dragon) talk me dirty during the fight:crying:

Good thing I had Kolgrim to tell the her "No yum-yums!"... before I proceeded to kill him, of course.

*childish voice*  "He challenged me and told me mean things"

To all the Sentinent Dragon Lovers here is what canon says. There is no proof that they are, but they might be...so patience and do not assume stuff from mindwank.

That's the beauty of it. No one knows for sure and everyone is going to argue over it. Then the writers laugh.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 01 avril 2011 - 07:36 .

[Liliandra Nadiar]

I'm 90% sure they're cunning enough to form plans and long-term goals, but it's pretty clear that any intelligence they have is not something the typical human (or elf, or dwarf, or whatever the Quanari are) understands or can relate to. Dragons don't appear to be social creatures so 'civilization' as defined by the bipedal inhabitants doesn't apply.

[Kijin]

Bayz wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

I for one welcome our new marine-mammal overlords.

All hail Flipper VIII overlord of the green dry depth!

Blacklash93 wrote...
No one knows much about dragon intelligence outside of the not-very-pleasant encounters because any encounter you're likely to have with them will very likely not be very pleasant. Nobody would touch those things with a 50-foot pole.

I know right? I was melting for having Andraste (the dragon) talk me dirty during the fight:crying:

Blacklash93 wrote...
"Mystery" is the key work here.

*childish voice*  "He challenged me and told me mean things"

To all the Sentinent Dragon Lovers here is what canon says. There is no proof that they are, but they might be...so patience and do not assume stuff from mindwank.

@Kijin

answered it somewhere where you posted the same thing. The only thing I can't really rebuff is the simmilarity of cults outside old Tevinter territory. Still it doesn't proof sentience.

Absolutely it does. The humans who formed the Dragon Cults outside of the Tevinter Imperium did so without knowledge of Tevinter's worship of the Old Gods. This is a much bigger deal than you realize. 

Dragon worship only has two sources. One - the group learns about Dragon Cults from Tevinter Imperium lore. This explains the Haven Dragon Cult.

However, the Codex makes it clear that Dragon Cults formed in parts of Thedas that had no connection to the Imperium. The question is this - why would an entire group of people begin to live with and worship dragons?

As many people have pointed out, if anyone tries to approach a dragon, they are immediately attacked. These cultists were not scholars - they knew nothing of dragon behavior. Yet not only did the High Dragon not kill these cultists, the High Dragon allowed these cultists to live with her and her children. High Dragons even let these cultists kill and devour some of her children.

How would a group of people, with no knowledge about dragon behavior and with no knowledge of Tevinter Imperium lore, convince a High Dragon not to kill them? If Dragons are capable of rational thought and deductive reasoning, these cults make perfect sense.

If they are just mindless animals, then these cults make no sense.  

[Bayz]

It doesn't because we don't know exactly how far from the Tevinter Empire are those territories and we don't know how big the empire was. Remember the case of Roman deities with Greek Deities. If the empire extended all over Theddas except some bits in the wilds there is still the possibility they took it via Cultural Osmosis. If the empire actually wasn't that big is when I can't really rebuff it.

Don't dragons sleep for long times like in any other Fantasy game? I said before is viable the cultist may have approached the nests at the beguinning, stole some eggs and started creating reapers, we don't know how dragons are supposed to react with people that has consumed their own blood. They might even be assumed as their own because of the process, and not the other way round. The codex's statements are always referring to already stablished cults, they don't mention how they start therefore there are millions of possibilities that suggest sentience and millions that don't.

If that doesn't satisfy you, know that there are ways to tame wild animals that doesn't involve the animal giving you a speech of agreement, like by literally "ye olde petting". Yup at first you pet a dragon and be ready to lose cultists like in bazillions but it will come to a point the  animal will end up accomodating itself.

They are not "mindless animals". Evolution didn't go Amoneba-Human straight fowardly. A Dolphin has sentience enough to even teach "languages" to their pods, Dolphins and pigs are capable of propper learning, and some monkeys are capable to use tools (not creating them though).

Not being sentinent doesn't mean "they are stupid"

Modifié par Bayz, 01 avril 2011 - 08:04 .

[Blacklash93]

High Dragons hibernate, but not in the sense of say... a bear. They just chill in their lairs sleeping, eating, and watching the young. Drakes are always active, however. Always hunting for food to bring to the female and and young.

If the codex doesn't bring things like eggs and theft up, I'm going to assume the ordeal is more ominous and sinister. Indoctrinated, blood-harvesting Cthulhu cult stuff is far more interesting IMO.

All I want is for dragons to get something. DA has so much detailed lore on so many different cultures and places, yet its title creature is stuck in the backround as typical hunting fodder so far.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 01 avril 2011 - 08:16 .

[Bayz]

The egg thieving stuff is the thiing that came faster  from the top of my tonge actually. It might have gazillions of explanations.

I share the feeling. Also everytime I replay Neverwinter Nights or something like that and see a Dragon talking to me I feel compelled to kill it because I feel sorry for DA dragons...

Modifié par Bayz, 01 avril 2011 - 08:29 .

[SphereofSilence]

If Flemeth is an Old God, I vote that she is actually Razikale, the Dragon of Mystery. Mystery and Flemeth seems to go together.

[Huntress]

Morrigan tell you that old magic is alive in the far corners of the world, if sandal is just a derp dwarf, why is flemeth watching him at night? just for giggles?
Flemeth can be in two places at once, she tells my mage: Bodies confines one to be in 1 place or something similar, does that mean she doesn't have a solid body and she can shift to be anything? from a trinket that you carry to the dalish to a sword from the deeproad? Can she split her self more than 2? Maybe thats how she got the old gods traped, she never left their side so they couldn't see she was trinking them.

I believe she is a god, one that have a grudge..
1) She is looking for something/someone and forcing tainted old gods to be reborn, one of them being morrigan son and this doesn't have to be pleasant for all living beings.
2) She just a crazy god lost perpuse and is trying to make as much chaos as possible for mortals, while having a good laugh.

Modifié par Huntress, 01 avril 2011 - 08:45 .

[Bayz]

Huntress wrote...

Morrigan tell you that old magic is alive in the far corners of the world, if sandal is just a derp dwarf, why is flemeth watching him at night? just for giggles?

Maybe she is into that thing

[Kijin]

Bayz wrote...

It doesn't because we don't know exactly how far from the Tevinter Empire are those territories and we don't know how big the empire was. Remember the case of Roman deities with Greek Deities. If the empire extended all over Theddas except some bits in the wilds there is still the possibility they took it via Cultural Osmosis. If the empire actually wasn't that big is when I can't really rebuff it.

Don't dragons sleep for long times like in any other Fantasy game? I said before is viable the cultist may have approached the nests at the beguinning, stole some eggs and started creating reapers, we don't know how dragons are supposed to react with people that has consumed their own blood. They might even be assumed as their own because of the process, and not the other way round. The codex's statements are always referring to already stablished cults, they don't mention how they start therefore there are millions of possibilities that suggest sentience and millions that don't.

If that doesn't satisfy you, know that there are ways to tame wild animals that doesn't involve the animal giving you a speech of agreement, like by literally "ye olde petting". Yup at first you pet a dragon and be ready to lose cultists like in bazillions but it will come to a point the  animal will end up accomodating itself.

They are not "mindless animals". Evolution didn't go Amoneba-Human straight fowardly. A Dolphin has sentience enough to even teach "languages" to their pods, Dolphins and pigs are capable of propper learning, and some monkeys are capable to use tools (not creating them though).

Not being sentinent doesn't mean "they are stupid"

Actually, we do know how large the Tevinter Imperium used to be. At its height, the Tevinter Imperium claimed most of Thedas. These regions include: the Anderfels, Nevarra, Antiva, Rivaini, the Free Marches, Orlais and Ferelden. In other words, the Tevinter Imperium at its height owned all of Thedas. All of this information can be found from this wiki:

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Ages

Unfortunately this means your point about Cultural Osmosis could be true. You can't prove it, but I can't disprove it.

High Dragons do sleep for a long time. However, Dragon Nests are fiercly defended by Drakes. Let us assume that the Dragon Nest in Haven is typical for a High Dragon Nest. According to your theory, these Cultists would have had to sneak past dozens of angry Drakes and Dragonlings, in order to steal the eggs. That would be impractical at best.

You then claim that the High Dragon and the Drakes  might assume that the cultists are dragons because they consumed the blood. THis is followed by an admission on your part that dolphins are highly intelligent creatures (which implies that dragons are similarly intelligent). If dragons are as smart as Dolphins, then this means they are capable of forming their own language, and even using tools:

http://news.national...phin_tools.html

The ability to use tools insinuates some form of deductive reasoning. A creature that is not capable of logic could never comprehend the use of tools. If Dragons are this intelligent, this means that they are more than capable of realizing that somebody who smells like a dragon is not necessarily a dragon. 

I want to thank you for finally admitting that Dragons possess some level of intelligence. Since we both agree this is true, then surely we can agree that Dragon Cults exist because the High Dragon they worship chose to let the cult form.