145 réponses à ce sujet

[Torax]

btw Morrigan said she wouldn't change her form into another human because she has nothing to gain from it.

Flemeth looks different and acts different to the Hero because she had nothing to gain by doing the old show. Flemeth was acting old and quite crazy for the Warden and most importantly Morrigan. They had to think she was losing it. It was a front. Morrigan probably didn't even see that coming. Meanwhile with Hawke she probably presented herself as she would for others not in front of Morrigan.

It's hard to say which gods are who. The Trickster comes to mind cause of the shape shifting. But it could be anything.

In regards to the old gods/dragons, in the Scourge Invasion DLC it seemed to be able to communicate to me. Infact the darkspawn in Awakening talk of the Song. The Old God talking to them. Commanding them.

Modifié par Torax, 01 avril 2011 - 08:58 .

[Blacklash93]

There was a dev post on how dragons percieve others. It was by Luke, I think.

Dragons do not recognize cultists as true kin. They view them as babysitters and, while they generally do not think of them as food, they will start eating them if resources become scarce. The cultists will tolerate it, however.

[Mnemnosyne]

Torax wrote...

btw Morrigan said she wouldn't change her form into another human because she has nothing to gain from it.

Again, no.  She says "I gain nothing by studying another human.  I already am the same as they are, I learn nothing.  So the answer is no, my human form is the only one I possess."

It's not a matter of choosing not to change her form - she's not stupid, she obviously knows that if she could disguise herself as other humans it would be advantageous in certain circumstances.  She simply cannot, either because she does not know the particular form of magic that is required in order to do so, or it's actually not possible.

[Kijin]

Torax wrote...

btw Morrigan said she wouldn't change her form into another human because she has nothing to gain from it.

Flemeth looks different and acts different to the Hero because she had nothing to gain by doing the old show. Flemeth was acting old and quite crazy for the Warden and most importantly Morrigan. They had to think she was losing it. It was a front. Morrigan probably didn't even see that coming. Meanwhile with Hawke she probably presented herself as she would for others not in front of Morrigan.

It's hard to say which gods are who. The Trickster comes to mind cause of the shape shifting. But it could be anything.

In regards to the old gods/dragons, in the Scourge Invasion DLC it seemed to be able to communicate to me. Infact the darkspawn in Awakening talk of the Song. The Old God talking to them. Commanding them.

Shapeshifting allows you to become a different animal or creature, but it did not allow you to change who you are. If Morrigan were to shapeshift into a wolf, she would become a female wolf - she could not change into a male wolf, as she cannot change who she is. You become you, but as a wolf. To "shapeshift" into a human would be pointless because she already is human, and her human form would just look like herself, more or less

The Arch Demons certainly were sentient - that cannot be denied. It could be argued that their sentience is the result of the Taint, but that is not an argument I believe. According to the Chantry, the Old Gods took an active role in turning people away from the Maker - and as Lorvincent demonstrates in the thread I linked to in my OP, the Old Gods were literally dragons themselves. If the Chantry is correct, dragons are far more clever than many think. 

[Bayz]

Kijin wrote...

Actually, we do know how large the Tevinter Imperium used to be. At its height, the Tevinter Imperium claimed most of Thedas. These regions include: the Anderfels, Nevarra, Antiva, Rivaini, the Free Marches, Orlais and Ferelden. In other words, the Tevinter Imperium at its height owned all of Thedas. All of this information can be found from this wiki:

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Ages

Yeah what I ment with the Cultural Osmosis statement is that if those cults outside the imperium were Kokari wild cultist who started worshipping dragons then it remains inconclusive the fact of sentinence.

Kijin wrote...
High Dragons do sleep for a long time. However, Dragon Nests are fiercly defended by Drakes. Let us assume that the Dragon Nest in Haven is typical for a High Dragon Nest. According to your theory, these Cultists would have had to sneak past dozens of angry Drakes and Dragonlings, in order to steal the eggs. That would be impractical at best.

It is also impractical to assault 4 archers in a tall hill without covers and with twoo handed weapons and that doesn't stop them really.

Kijin wrote...
You then claim that the High Dragon and the Drakes  might assume that the cultists are dragons because they consumed the blood. THis is followed by an admission on your part that dolphins are highly intelligent creatures (which implies that dragons are similarly intelligent). If dragons are as smart as Dolphins, then this means they are capable of forming their own language, and even using tools:

http://news.national...phin_tools.html

The ability to use tools insinuates some form of deductive reasoning. A creature that is not capable of logic could never comprehend the use of tools. If Dragons are this intelligent, this means that they are more than capable of realizing that somebody who smells like a dragon is not necessarily a dragon. 

That is actually not that clear for one explanation or the other, but Blacklash93  said

Blacklash93 wrote...

There was a dev post on how dragons
percieve others. It was by Luke, I think.

Dragons do not
recognize cultists as true kin. They view them as babysitters and, while
they generally do not think of them as food, they will start eating
them if resources become scarce. The cultists will tolerate it,
however.

Which certainly nullfies my statement. In this case I will have to retort and point that they might be akin to zoo dolphins and other animals. How cultists manage to "tame" them I do not know but probably involves a lot of cows, and cultists dead.

Kijin wrote...
I want to thank you for finally admitting that Dragons possess some level of intelligence. Since we both agree this is true, then surely we can agree that Dragon Cults exist because the High Dragon they worship chose to let the cult form.

Never stated the opposite. They are highly intelligent and capable of very high thinking processes. Still they don't have sentience. At least not proved.

Modifié par Bayz, 01 avril 2011 - 09:18 .

[lynx calibervzk]

i agree i think flemeth is a old god or the trickster wolf. i got a hint that she had history with the elvehn when she asked merril if she knew anything about her. espcially when she called merril of the people .why because only the dalish or scholars would greet "of the people" since they lost there history and more into flemeth being a dragon, no she is a god or at least another entity that doesnt want to go back to where she from because she waiting for something to happen.

entity

[Blacklash93]

To elaborate futher...

Cultists don't tame dragons. If they fight together, it's because they have a common enemy threatening the nest. It's a symbiotic relationship that is sustained only because both groups benefit from it.

In the codex of Arlathan's Fall, the Tevinter Imperium was said to have trained dragons and have had them fight with them in that particular battle. Perhaps Tevinter found a way to manipulate them into servitude, or maybe it has soemthing to do with the Old Gods being the ones who beckoned the invasion in the first place.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 01 avril 2011 - 09:26 .

[Kijin]

Bayz wrote...

Kijin wrote...

Actually, we do know how large the Tevinter Imperium used to be. At its height, the Tevinter Imperium claimed most of Thedas. These regions include: the Anderfels, Nevarra, Antiva, Rivaini, the Free Marches, Orlais and Ferelden. In other words, the Tevinter Imperium at its height owned all of Thedas. All of this information can be found from this wiki:

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Ages

Yeah what I ment with the Cultural Osmosis statement is that if those cults outside the imperium were Kokari wild cultist who started worshipping dragons then it remains inconclusive the fact of sentinence.

Kijin wrote...
High Dragons do sleep for a long time. However, Dragon Nests are fiercly defended by Drakes. Let us assume that the Dragon Nest in Haven is typical for a High Dragon Nest. According to your theory, these Cultists would have had to sneak past dozens of angry Drakes and Dragonlings, in order to steal the eggs. That would be impractical at best.

It is also impractical to assault 4 archers in a tall hill without covers and with twoo handed weapons and that doesn't stop them really.

Kijin wrote...
You then claim that the High Dragon and the Drakes  might assume that the cultists are dragons because they consumed the blood. THis is followed by an admission on your part that dolphins are highly intelligent creatures (which implies that dragons are similarly intelligent). If dragons are as smart as Dolphins, then this means they are capable of forming their own language, and even using tools:

http://news.national...phin_tools.html

The ability to use tools insinuates some form of deductive reasoning. A creature that is not capable of logic could never comprehend the use of tools. If Dragons are this intelligent, this means that they are more than capable of realizing that somebody who smells like a dragon is not necessarily a dragon. 

That is actually not that clear for one explanation or the other, but Blacklash93  said

Blacklash93 wrote...

There was a dev post on how dragons
percieve others. It was by Luke, I think.

Dragons do not
recognize cultists as true kin. They view them as babysitters and, while
they generally do not think of them as food, they will start eating
them if resources become scarce. The cultists will tolerate it,
however.

Which certainly nullfies my statement. In this case I will have to retort and point that they might be akin to zoo dolphins and other animals. How cultists manage to "tame" them I do not know but probably involves a lot of cows, and cultists dead.

Kijin wrote...
I want to thank you for finally admitting that Dragons possess some level of intelligence. Since we both agree this is true, then surely we can agree that Dragon Cults exist because the High Dragon they worship chose to let the cult form.

Never stated the opposite. They are highly intelligent and capable of very high thinking processes. Still they don't have sentience. At least not proved.

What do you mean when you use the term sentience? 

When I claim that Dragons are sentient, what I mean is that they are highly intelligent creatures capable of making rational decisions. I firmly believe that the dragons allow the cultists to form the cults. The cultists do not trick the dragons - the dragons think about the proposal, weigh their options and decide that the benefits of being worshipped outweights the disadvantages. Thus, a Dragon Cult is born.

You and I both agree that Dragons are highly intelligent, and are capable of rational thought. I would consider that sentience. Yet you do not believe they are sentient. So, what is your definition of sentience?

Edit: I apologize for claiming that you stated the opposite. I looked back on your posts and I found that you never did. That was a misunderstanding on my end.

Modifié par Kijin, 01 avril 2011 - 09:27 .

[Bayz]

Self-awareness basically and a human level of rational thinking including stuff like abstraction etc

What basically make humans well...humans

Modifié par Bayz, 01 avril 2011 - 09:35 .

[Blacklash93]

Of course the dragon allows it. There would be no cults it they didn't. They're definitely smart enough to know an opportunity when they see it.

The question is how do they start. Could any simple group of people start this twisted cult structure with dragons all on their own? How does one get the idea in their head to drink dragon blood? Do the dragons start these cults themselves by seducing a community? How does the dragon communicate to cultists to live in its lair and take care of its young? How would a dragon know they would?

Modifié par Blacklash93, 01 avril 2011 - 09:37 .

[Bayz]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Of course the dragon allows it. There would be no cults it they didn't. They're definitely smart enough to know an opportunity when they see it.

The question is how do they start. Could any simple group of people start this twisted cult structure with dragons all on their own? How does one get the idea in their head to drink dragon blood? Do the dragons start these cults themselves by seducing a community? How does the dragon communicate to cultists to live in its lair and take care of its young? How would a dragon know they would?

Here is the quid. If we had iinformation abou how these cults are at the start we could prove or nullify

[Blacklash93]

We do know that dragons have a strange ability to teach others how to harness their blood via drinking dragon blood. There was also a hint in Origins that dragon blood may carry "memories" of some sort.

It's blood magic, definitely. Which itself is interesting because the Old Gods were the ones who taught blood magic to the world.

[Bayz]

Blood magic was the first form of magic in Thedas.
According to legend, it was taught to Archon Thalsian, founder of the Tevinter Imperium, by Dumat,
the Old God of Silence. Historians argue on this point, suggesting the
Imperium's mages may have learned it from the elves of Arlathan.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Blood_magic

They might have...o might have not (lol)

[Kijin]

Bayz wrote...

Self-awareness basically and a human level of rational thinking including stuff like abstraction etc

What basically make humans well...humans

So you believe that Dragons are as smart as dolphins. Dolphins are capable of teaching its young language and can even use tools. Yet you think that dolphins, like dragons, are not self-aware. 

Well, Dolphins could be self aware: http://www.scientifi...elf-recognition

But that's beside the point.

Backlash has been doing an amazing job demonstrating that dragons choose to let the cultists into their lair. Since this is the case, we can conclude that dragons are capable of rational thought. And as Backlash pointed out, the Chantry claims that the Old Gods might have brought blood magic into the world, which means the Old Gods were capable of using magic - and it is almost certainly the case that the Old Gods were dragons themselves. So, Dragons are capable of casting magic. 

So, dragons are highly intelligent beings capable of rational thought, who can learn how to use magic. How could they not be self aware? On a side note, all of this means that my Flemeth being a dragon theory is more than likely true. 

Modifié par Kijin, 01 avril 2011 - 10:06 .

[Bayz]

Kijin wrote...

Backlash has been doing an amazing job demonstrating that dragons choose to let the cultists into their lair. Since this is the case, we can conclude that dragons are capable of rational thought. And as Backlash pointed out, the Chantry claims that the Old Gods might have brought blood magic into the world, which means the Old Gods were capable of using magic - and it is almost certainly the case that the Old Gods were dragons themselves. So, Dragons are capable of casting magic. 

The Chanty does claim it. Scholars in world doesn't have it clear and the elves (well Meril) apparently thinks it came from Arlathan. It's in the post above.

The thing is that is asuming tht Old Gods = Dragons which I do not. They might be dragons posessed by Very powerful demons of desire and pride, but that's still more abomination than dragon in my dictionary.

They may even be Cthuluesque Eldritch abominations who had as a choice a dragon form because otherwise their cultists will end up killing themelves

They may be man things yet none of this has been adressed specifically

Kijin wrote...
So, dragons are highly intelligent beings capable of rational thought, who can learn how to use magic. How could they not be self aware? On a side note, all of this means that my Flemeth being a dragon theory is more than likely true.

Flemmeth is, and that's as how far as the devs allwed us to know.

Modifié par Bayz, 01 avril 2011 - 10:13 .

[Blacklash93]

Bayz wrote...

Blood magic was the first form of magic in Thedas.
According to legend, it was taught to Archon Thalsian, founder of the Tevinter Imperium, by Dumat,
the Old God of Silence. Historians argue on this point, suggesting the
Imperium's mages may have learned it from the elves of Arlathan.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Blood_magic

They might have...o might have not (lol)

Does the wiki have a source there? I'm sure you need to be a regular mage to use blood magic, thus should be able to use regular magic first.

Before the Old Gods were sealed away, they did rule over the ancient world and supposedly taught humanity regular magic. That's why they were worshiped and imprisoned. Then Dumat taught blood magic to who would be the first archon.

The thing is that is asuming tht Old Gods = Dragons which I do not. They might be dragons posessed by Very powerful demons of desire and pride, but that's still more abomination than dragon in my dictionary.

I don't think they're demons. Why would the drakspawn be attracted to run-of-the-mill demons posessing dragons?
It can't be that simple.

There would be no reason for an insane archdemon to assume any appearance other than its true from. I think they're just dragons.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 01 avril 2011 - 10:29 .

[Bayz]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Does the wiki have a source there? I'm sure you need to be a regular mage to use blood magic, thus should be able to use regular magic first.

Don't think so. I believe Merril says something like that at any point in Act 1 and they got it from there.

Arlathan elves were supposed to be mages (every single of them) and inmortal. At least is what Merril wanted us to believe in the first Act.

Blacklash93 wrote...
I don't think they're demons. Why would the drakspawn be attracted to run-of-the-mill demons posessing dragons?
It can't be that simple.

The taint. I think the  taint has a lot of stuff to explain as well. I said the Old Gods may be dragon Abominations...the Archdemons aren't Old Gods, the Archdemons are Tainted Old Gods...is a bit complex but is a step further into the scale.

Look at it as the Cyborg-Ninja-Zombie-Pirate

But that's just one explanation of who knows how many?

They can come one day and say that the Old Gods were real dragons that were sentinent and thar the maker decided to transform the rest into dolphin-lizards because  they almost dethroned him and they would have me believe it as well, as long as the word comes directly from canon.

[Bayz]

DAMMIT INTERNETS!!

Double post

Modifié par Bayz, 01 avril 2011 - 10:57 .

[Kijin]

Bayz wrote...

The Chanty does claim it. Scholars in world doesn't have it clear and the elves (well Meril) apparently thinks it came from Arlathan. It's in the post above.

The thing is that is asuming tht Old Gods = Dragons which I do not. They might be dragons posessed by Very powerful demons of desire and pride, but that's still more abomination than dragon in my dictionary.

They may even be Cthuluesque Eldritch abominations who had as a choice a dragon form because otherwise their cultists will end up killing themelves

It is possible that an Abomination could possess a dragon, but unlikely. Although mages are the usual target, beings without magical energy can be possessed. This is because when demons possess individuals, they do not feed off of that creature's magical energy. Instead, they feed on that creature's emotions: "A demon is a malicious spirit from the Fade that feeds on the darker parts of the mortal psyche like rage, hunger, and desire. "

Now, you claim that the Old Gods could have been Dragons that were possessed by Demons, to become Draconic Abominations. However, demonic possession requires emotion. You also believe that Dragons are not self-aware. These two points clearly contradict one another - a Self-aware being cannot express an emotion, as the presence of emotion requires the being know of its own existence. The most basic form of emotional expression is the statement, "I am happy" or "I am sad". 

When a Self-Aware being is physically hurt, they also experience long-lasting emotional pain. This is what demons feed on. For a creature that is not-sentient, when they are physically hurt there is no emotional repercussions. If Dragons are truly not sentient, then they could not experience emotions - which means either the Old Gods were not possessed by demons, or Dragons must be self-aware.

[Bayz]

Kijin wrote...

It is possible that an Abomination could possess a dragon, but unlikely. Although mages are the usual target, beings without magical energy can be possessed. This is because when demons possess individuals, they do not feed off of that creature's magical energy. Instead, they feed on that creature's emotions: "A demon is a malicious spirit from the Fade that feeds on the darker parts of the mortal psyche like rage, hunger, and desire. "

Nopez. Demons habe been seen to possess corpses, cats, trees...the list continues

Kijin wrote...
Now, you claim that the Old Gods could have been Dragons that were possessed by Demons, to become Draconic Abominations. However, demonic possession requires emotion. You also believe that Dragons are not self-aware. These two points clearly contradict one another - a Self-aware being cannot express an emotion, as the presence of emotion requires the being know of its own existence. The most basic form of emotional expression is the statement, "I am happy" or "I am sad".

Sure because animals  can't be happy or sad they can't be angry either. They are just automates.

Kijin wrote...
When a Self-Aware being is physically hurt, they also experience long-lasting emotional pain. This is what demons feed on. For a creature that is not-sentient, when they are physically hurt there is no emotional repercussions. If Dragons are truly not sentient, then they could not experience emotions - which means either the Old Gods were not possessed by demons, or Dragons must be self-aware.

Not emotional repercussions?  tell that to my dog the next time he pisses on my pillow because I didn't give him cookies, he seemed he hadn't noticed that. Little bastard holds grudges like a bloody warhammer dwarf. His revenge may take years but he will take them

Modifié par Bayz, 01 avril 2011 - 11:54 .

[Kijin]

Bayz wrote...

Kijin wrote...

It is possible that an Abomination could possess a dragon, but unlikely. Although mages are the usual target, beings without magical energy can be possessed. This is because when demons possess individuals, they do not feed off of that creature's magical energy. Instead, they feed on that creature's emotions: "A demon is a malicious spirit from the Fade that feeds on the darker parts of the mortal psyche like rage, hunger, and desire. "

Nopez. Demons habe been seen to possess corpses, cats, trees...the list continues

Kijin wrote...
Now, you claim that the Old Gods could have been Dragons that were possessed by Demons, to become Draconic Abominations. However, demonic possession requires emotion. You also believe that Dragons are not self-aware. These two points clearly contradict one another - a Self-aware being cannot express an emotion, as the presence of emotion requires the being know of its own existence. The most basic form of emotional expression is the statement, "I am happy" or "I am sad".

Sure because dogs  can't be happy or sad they can't be angry either. They are just automates.

Kijin wrote...
When a Self-Aware being is physically hurt, they also experience long-lasting emotional pain. This is what demons feed on. For a creature that is not-sentient, when they are physically hurt there is no emotional repercussions. If Dragons are truly not sentient, then they could not experience emotions - which means either the Old Gods were not possessed by demons, or Dragons must be self-aware.

Not emotional repercussions?  tell that to my dog the next time he pisses on my pillow because I didn't give him cookies, he seemed he hadn't noticed that.

Yes, demons possess corpses and skeletons. These Corpses and Skeletons are possessed by Hunger Demons, and their entire purpose is to feed on the living. Even if they are dead, they used to be alive. Hunger Demons are feeding off of their host's desire for life - thus emotion sustains them.

Cats lol - the Desire Demon did not possess a cat. Don't be stupid. The Desire demon took the form of a cat. There is a clear difference. So yes, my theory holds. In case you have forgotten, you can check out the end of the Youtube video around the 5 minute mark - the Desire Demon undoes the Shapeshifting magic and changes into her normal appearance.

The trees you are referring to are Sylvan - these are trees possessed by spirits. Although they are not alive in the traditional sense, they are capable of expressing emotion. Even the Sylvans that attack anyone who gets close does so out of jealousy. Demons can possess Sylvans, but not trees.

Keep in mind - my point is that a demon sustains itself on emotion. In other words - demons require that their host have emotion. Without emotion, they will lose energy, and they will be forced back into the Fade. A demon could possess anything - but if its host does not express emotion, it will not last long.

To continue on - Dogs do not experience emotion. Dogs are not self aware. I have owned dogs all  my life, and I love my dog - but the reality is, we condition dogs to react in a way that we interpret to be emotional. When you yell at your dog, it is not scared - it is acting scared because that is how it was conditioned. Unfortunately, sentience is one of the hardest things to prove, so this is is all just interpretation. 

Modifié par Kijin, 02 avril 2011 - 12:05 .

[Bayz]

Kijin wrote...

Bayz wrote...

Kijin wrote...

It is possible that an Abomination could possess a dragon, but unlikely. Although mages are the usual target, beings without magical energy can be possessed. This is because when demons possess individuals, they do not feed off of that creature's magical energy. Instead, they feed on that creature's emotions: "A demon is a malicious spirit from the Fade that feeds on the darker parts of the mortal psyche like rage, hunger, and desire. "

Nopez. Demons habe been seen to possess corpses, cats, trees...the list continues

Kijin wrote...
Now, you claim that the Old Gods could have been Dragons that were possessed by Demons, to become Draconic Abominations. However, demonic possession requires emotion. You also believe that Dragons are not self-aware. These two points clearly contradict one another - a Self-aware being cannot express an emotion, as the presence of emotion requires the being know of its own existence. The most basic form of emotional expression is the statement, "I am happy" or "I am sad".

Sure because dogs  can't be happy or sad they can't be angry either. They are just automates.

Kijin wrote...
When a Self-Aware being is physically hurt, they also experience long-lasting emotional pain. This is what demons feed on. For a creature that is not-sentient, when they are physically hurt there is no emotional repercussions. If Dragons are truly not sentient, then they could not experience emotions - which means either the Old Gods were not possessed by demons, or Dragons must be self-aware.

Not emotional repercussions?  tell that to my dog the next time he pisses on my pillow because I didn't give him cookies, he seemed he hadn't noticed that.

Yes, demons possess corpses and skeletons. These Corpses and Skeletons are possessed by Hunger Demons, and their entire purpose is to feed on the living. Even if they are dead, they used to be alive. Hunger Demons are feeding off of their host's desire for life - thus emotion sustains them.

And my point is that corpses do not have emotions...they arent even alive.

My dog giving me any response coming for an action that comes from me, he processes the stuff himself and gives me a response depending on how he "feels" regarding on that. Dogs also hold memories (limited) on people and react on them depending on how their "past experiences" come to them (it relates to their scent etc).

My dog for example hates my mother because she used to bully him a lot when he was a puppy. Nowadays if she comes to visit he will threaten her even if she doesn't do anything. If we are at her place he will hide and try to remain unnoticed. No the only dog I've seen doing stuff like this.

Research suggests that canines can experience negative emotions in a
similar manner to people, including the equivalent of certain chronic
and acute psychological conditions. The classic experiment for this was Martin Seligman's
foundational experiments and theory of learned
helplessness at the University
of Pennsylvania in 1965, as an extension of his interest in
depression:

A dog that had earlier been repeatedly conditioned to associate a
sound with electric shocks did not try to escape the electric shocks
after the warning was presented, even though all the dog would have had
to do is jump over a low divider within ten seconds, more than enough
time to respond. The dog didn't even try to avoid the "aversive
stimulus"; it had previously "learned" that nothing it did mattered. A
follow-up experiment involved three dogs affixed in harnesses, including
one that received shocks of identical intensity and duration to the
others, but the lever which would otherwise have allowed the dog a
degree of control was left disconnected and didn't do anything. The
first two dogs quickly recovered from the experience, but the third dog
suffered chronic symptoms of clinical depression
as a result of this perceived helplessness.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion_in_animals

That was dogs now imagine dolphins,  after it Lizard Dolphins

Modifié par Bayz, 02 avril 2011 - 12:26 .

[Mnemnosyne]

Kijin wrote...

The trees you are referring to are Sylvan - these are trees possessed by spirits. Although they are not alive in the traditional sense, they are capable of expressing emotion. Even the Sylvans that attack anyone who gets close does so out of jealousy. Demons can possess Sylvans, but not trees.

A sylvan is, by definition, a demon that has possessed a tree.

[Kijin]

Bayz wrote...

Kijin wrote...

Bayz wrote...

Kijin wrote...

It is possible that an Abomination could possess a dragon, but unlikely. Although mages are the usual target, beings without magical energy can be possessed. This is because when demons possess individuals, they do not feed off of that creature's magical energy. Instead, they feed on that creature's emotions: "A demon is a malicious spirit from the Fade that feeds on the darker parts of the mortal psyche like rage, hunger, and desire. "

Nopez. Demons habe been seen to possess corpses, cats, trees...the list continues

Kijin wrote...
Now, you claim that the Old Gods could have been Dragons that were possessed by Demons, to become Draconic Abominations. However, demonic possession requires emotion. You also believe that Dragons are not self-aware. These two points clearly contradict one another - a Self-aware being cannot express an emotion, as the presence of emotion requires the being know of its own existence. The most basic form of emotional expression is the statement, "I am happy" or "I am sad".

Sure because dogs  can't be happy or sad they can't be angry either. They are just automates.

Kijin wrote...
When a Self-Aware being is physically hurt, they also experience long-lasting emotional pain. This is what demons feed on. For a creature that is not-sentient, when they are physically hurt there is no emotional repercussions. If Dragons are truly not sentient, then they could not experience emotions - which means either the Old Gods were not possessed by demons, or Dragons must be self-aware.

Not emotional repercussions?  tell that to my dog the next time he pisses on my pillow because I didn't give him cookies, he seemed he hadn't noticed that.

Yes, demons possess corpses and skeletons. These Corpses and Skeletons are possessed by Hunger Demons, and their entire purpose is to feed on the living. Even if they are dead, they used to be alive. Hunger Demons are feeding off of their host's desire for life - thus emotion sustains them.

And my point is that corpses do not have emotions...they arent even alive.

My dog giving me any response coming for an action that comes from me, he processes the stuff himself and gives me a response depending on how he "feels" regarding on that. Dogs also hold memories (limited) on people and react on them depending on how their "past experiences" come to them (it relates to their scent etc).

My dog for example hates my mother because she used to bully him a lot when he was a puppy. Nowadays if she comes to visit he will threaten her even if she doesn't do anything. If we are at her place he will hide and try to remain unnoticed. No the only dog I've seen doing stuff like this.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion_in_animals

Demons and Spirits are capable of expressing emotion. When demons possess a corpse, they are not feeding off of the emotion of the corpose, but off of the emotion of the spirit that used to inhabit the corpse. The spirit regrets that it has died, and the demon feeds off of this.

Alternatively, a demon could possess the corpse of an individual that did not regret death. If this were the case, the demon could live in that host for a time, but they would not receive any energy. Eventually, the demon would run out of magical energy - when this occurs, they would return to the Fade. 

I don't doubt that your dog barks at your mother - I do doubt that your dog is experiencing emotions. Your dog views your mother as a threat and is treating her as one. Your dog is not experiencing emotions - it is merely trying to defend itself. Your dog does not believe it can defend itself, so it is avoiding confrontation. This is not an emotional reaction. I know dogs are cute - mine is also cute - but that does not mean it is intelligent, and it does not mean it is experiencing emotions. I would love it if dogs were capable of expressing emotions - they are not

Even so, what revelance does this have to Dragon Age? If the Old Gods were Dragons that were possessed by abominations, then they must have been capable of expressing emotions. Now, I do not believe that the Old Gods were possessed by abominations - that is your theory. However, for your theory to be correct, dragons must be self-aware.

Edit: Instinct is the driving force behind animal behavior - dogs included.

Modifié par Kijin, 02 avril 2011 - 12:46 .

[Bayz]

Did you read the wikipedia link? Mammals and birds feel emotion, and studies keep going on that regard. Do not know where did you get animals can't feel emotion.

The spirit who inhabited the corpse? Source or didn't happen.

They do feed on emotions but those emotions don't need to be in the host. There is plenty of times you actually see demons feeding on emotions of non hosts in both Origins and 2

Instinct is a different thing altogether (and surprise surprise also affects humans)

Modifié par Bayz, 02 avril 2011 - 12:54 .