145 réponses à ce sujet

[Blacklash93]

Bayz wrote...

The taint. I think the  taint has a lot of stuff to explain as well. I said the Old Gods may be dragon Abominations...the Archdemons aren't Old Gods, the Archdemons are Tainted Old Gods...is a bit complex but is a step further into the scale.

Demons don't even know what the taint is. It's alien to them.

If the old gods are posessed dragons, it couldn't be from a normal spirit or demon.

[kedcoleman]

Well, what happens, then, if a demon/spirit-possessed mortal body gets tainted?

[Bayz]

Why not?

I know demons don't know what the taint is. Your point?

kedcoleman wrote...

Well, what happens, then, if a
demon/spirit-possessed mortal body gets tainted?

Well is ssupposed to be how happens (in case my fanwank of Arch Demons being possessed Dragons)

They are supposed to remain untainted underground, then the darkspawn find them, taint them and the party beguins.

Usually nothing, just that said demon spirit gets extremely annoyed as their body starts to become goulish (Sophia Dryden) other than that...not sure. The joining ritual might have something to do with it.

Neither if they are exposed to a long lasting period of taint...

Modifié par Bayz, 02 avril 2011 - 01:06 .

[Kijin]

Bayz wrote...

Did you read the wikipedia link? Mammals and birds feel emotion, and studies keep going on that regard. Do not know where did you get animals can't feel emotion.

The spirit who inhabited the corpse? Source or didn't happen.

Didn't read the Sylvan bit before but yeah, Sylvans are trees possesed by spirits. True, that's what I am saying exactly. Demons are Spirits just in case you didn't realize before...

I did read the wikipedia link. Some animals are self aware creatures that can express emotions - Chimpanzies are an example. Dogs are not. I don't think you realize how difficult it is to test for emotions - how do you differentiate between instinct and emotion? You can't. 

Demons and spirits can both possess corpses. When demons possess corpses, they become Devouring Corpses.

Spirits can also possess corpses - Justice in Awakening is the perfect example. Throughout Awakening, Justice will begin to complain that his host body is slowly beginning to rot - this is because Justice was not receiving any energy. Demons and spirits can possess creatures that do not have emotions - these forms do not last long, as both demons and spirits require spiritual nourishment in the form of emotions to sustain themselves. Justice could have possessed a rock - but he would have been forced back into the Fade when he ran out of spiritual energy. 

By this same logic, a spirit or a demon can possess a tree. Without an energy source, that demon will not remain away from the Fade for long.

Edit: You edited your post - sorry I didn't see that. Yes, demons can receive energy from the emotions of a nearby target. The demon that had possessed Connor in DAO was feeding off of Connor's emotions, as well as those of his mother and father. However, demons need a constant source of energy. If a crazy old man lived in a hut, a demon could possess the hut and live off of the old man's emotions. However, if the old man were to move to another hut, that demon would starve. 

Yes instinct does still affect humans. I never denied that. I am not saying the presence of instinct automatically disqualifies dogs from experiencing emotions. I am merely saying that the presence of instinct does not guarantee that the creature is self aware and that it can experience emotions. You are falsely conflating emotions with instinct. 

Modifié par Kijin, 02 avril 2011 - 01:11 .

[Blacklash93]

Bayz wrote...

Why not?

I know demons don't know what the taint is. Your point?

My point is that the taint isn't connected to normal demons or spirits.

[Bayz]

Kijin wrote...

I did read the wikipedia link. Some animals are self aware creatures that can express emotions - Chimpanzies are an example. Dogs are not. I don't think you realize how difficult it is to test for emotions - how do you differentiate between instinct and emotion? You can't.

There is a limit even in how many times I can
post the same stuff but here you go again



Research suggests that canines

can experience negative emotions in a

similar manner to people,
including the equivalent of certain chronic

and acute psychological
conditions. The classic experiment for this was Martin
Seligman's

foundational experiments and theory of
learned

helplessness at the University

of
Pennsylvania in 1965, as an extension of his interest in

depression:

A
dog that had earlier been repeatedly conditioned to associate a

sound
with electric shocks did not try to escape the electric shocks

after
the warning was presented, even though all the dog would have had

to
do is jump over a low divider within ten seconds, more than enough

time
to respond. The dog didn't even try to avoid the "aversive

stimulus";
it had previously "learned" that nothing it did mattered. A

follow-up
experiment involved three dogs affixed in harnesses, including

one
that received shocks of identical intensity and duration to the

others,
but the lever which would otherwise have allowed the dog a

degree
of control was left disconnected and didn't do anything. The

first
two dogs quickly recovered from the experience, but the third dog

suffered
chronic symptoms of clinical

depression

as a result of this perceived
helplessness.

Kijin wrote...
Demons and spirits can both possess corpses. When demons possess corpses, they become Devouring Corpses.

Spirits can also possess corpses - Justice in Awakening is the perfect example. Throughout Awakening, Justice will begin to complain that his host body is slowly beginning to rot - this is because Justice was not receiving any energy. Demons and spirits can possess creatures that do not have emotions - these forms do not last long, as both demons and spirits require spiritual nourishment in the form of emotions to sustain themselves. Justice could have possessed a rock - but he would have been forced back into the Fade when he ran out of spiritual energy. 

By this same logic, a spirit or a demon can possess a tree. Without an energy source, that demon will not remain away from the Fade for long.

I've telling you that. The hut example, will go to the fade or move on to another host so what? Not but you are saying dogs don't feel emotions. Not Dogs are not self aware. Never said they were. No animal actually is, no matter how high processes their brain can resolve. I am not, in fact I jut said they (instinct and emotion) are different thing alltogether.

Blacklash93 wrote...

My
point is that the taint isn't connected to normal demons or
spirits.

...which I said where it is where exactly?

Modifié par Bayz, 02 avril 2011 - 01:19 .

[Blacklash93]

Bayz wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

My
point is that the taint isn't connected to normal demons or
spirits.

...which I said where it is where exactly?

You didn't.

You posted that it's possible the old gods could be posessed dragons. I said I didn't believe it because of the taint... clumsily, but still.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 02 avril 2011 - 02:38 .

[Kijin]

Bayz wrote...

Kijin wrote...

I did read the wikipedia link. Some animals are self aware creatures that can express emotions - Chimpanzies are an example. Dogs are not. I don't think you realize how difficult it is to test for emotions - how do you differentiate between instinct and emotion? You can't.

There is a limit even in how many times I can
post the same stuff but here you go again

Kijin wrote...
Demons and spirits can both possess corpses. When demons possess corpses, they become Devouring Corpses.

Spirits can also possess corpses - Justice in Awakening is the perfect example. Throughout Awakening, Justice will begin to complain that his host body is slowly beginning to rot - this is because Justice was not receiving any energy. Demons and spirits can possess creatures that do not have emotions - these forms do not last long, as both demons and spirits require spiritual nourishment in the form of emotions to sustain themselves. Justice could have possessed a rock - but he would have been forced back into the Fade when he ran out of spiritual energy. 

By this same logic, a spirit or a demon can possess a tree. Without an energy source, that demon will not remain away from the Fade for long.

I've telling you that. The hut example, will go to the fade or move on to another host so what? Not but you are saying dogs don't feel emotions. Not Dogs are not self aware. Never said they were. No animal actually is, no matter how high processes their brain can resolve. I am not, in fact I jut said they (instinct and emotion) are different thing alltogether.

Blacklash93 wrote...

My
point is that the taint isn't connected to normal demons or
spirits.

...which I said where it is where exactly?

I have read about those studies long before you posted them on this forum. I know that there is a popular theory in the scientific community that states that dogs experience emotions. I recognize that this theory exists and I recognize that you believe it. However, I believe you are falsely conflating emotions with instinct. 
With all of that said, what does this have to do with Dragon Age? Either tie it to our current discussion or drop it.

Now, back to demonic possession. When I first brought up the fact that demons fed on emotions, you denied it: "Nopez. Demons habe been seen to possess corpses, cats, trees...the list continues"

So, no you have not been telling me all along that demons  require emotions to sustain themselves. I have been telling you that they can do so but they still require emotions to sustain themselves. Let us refer to the demonically possessed hut. Let us assume that the old man dies and nobody else moves into the hut. The demon would no longer have any emotions to sustain itself on - it would run out of energy, and it would be forced back to the Fade. The hut would remain where it is. Justice feared that this same thing was happening to him in Awakening. 

So, even if Dragons were not capable of expressing emotions, a demon could possess one. However, the demon would still require emotions to fuel itself. As said early, a demon could sustain without fuel for a short amount of time. Dragons are rather conspicuous, so it is unlikely that the dragon could simply form a nest right next to a town. Assuming that the demon possessed a High Dragon, the demon would need to set up a nest, become impregnated by a Drake, then attempt to convince an entire village that they should worship her. That is a lot of work. If dragons did not have emotions, then it would be far easier for the demon to possess a dragon that was already part of a Dragon Cult. Of course, if dragons are self aware, then they are capable of expressing emotions - which means all of this supposition is pointless.

[Bayz]

I denied the hosts needed to have emotions. Not that they didn't fed on them. Read it again and state where I said they didn't fed on emotions. Do not put on my fingers words I didn't write.

Kijin wrote...
the demon would need to set up a nest, become impregnated by a Drake, then attempt to convince an entire village that they should worship her.

Why? Isn't it easier to pick a guy from the Village and teach it blood magic making it become Archon as the Chantry version goes? (in case the Arlathan bit is not real)

Kijin wrote...
That is a lot of work. If dragons did not have emotions, then it would be far easier for the demon to possess a dragon that was already part of a Dragon Cult. Of course, if dragons are self aware, then they are capable of expressing emotions - which means all of this supposition is pointless.

Yet canon states that their sentience isn't proven which makes all this suppositions we've been debating the whole afternoon pointless anyway, but that's the internets.

Modifié par Bayz, 02 avril 2011 - 01:55 .

[Bayz]

Blacklash93 wrote...

You didn't.

You posted that it's possible the old gods could be posessed dragons. I said I didn't believe it because of the taint. Clumsily, but still.

Well I thought we were talking about Old Gods first. Remember that the Old Gods that are somewhere in the Deep Roads aren't tainted just yet.

There are proof that creatures with the taint can be possesed (Dryden) I don't see why posseseed creatures cannot be tainted (although the effect will be well...)

That said is amazing you guys had me an entire afternoon defending a theory I do not believe actually  and that I used as example that it "couldd" happen.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Kijin wrote...
Cats lol - the Desire Demon did not possess a cat. Don't be stupid. The Desire demon took the form of a cat.

Poor Mr Wiggums.

[Kijin]

Bayz wrote...

I denied the hosts needed to have emotions. Not that they didn't fed on them. Read it again and state where I said they didn't fed on emotions. Do not put on my fingers words I didn't write.

Kijin wrote...
the demon would need to set up a nest, become impregnated by a Drake, then attempt to convince an entire village that they should worship her.

Why? Isn't it easier to pick a guy from the Village and teach it blood magic making it become Archon as the Chantry version goes? (in case the Arlathan bit is not real)

Kijin wrote...
That is a lot of work. If dragons did not have emotions, then it would be far easier for the demon to possess a dragon that was already part of a Dragon Cult. Of course, if dragons are self aware, then they are capable of expressing emotions - which means all of this supposition is pointless.

Yet canon states that their sentience isn't proven which makes all this suppositions we've been debating the whole afternoon pointless anyway, but that's the internets.

 You wouldn't be arguing with me if you weren't having fun. But I digress.

If dragons are not capable of emotions, then the only way a demon could sustain itself while possessing a dragon would be if a Dragon Cult formed. How this cult forms is meaningless - what matters is this is an incredibly convulted method of creating a guaranteed food source. More importantly, Dragon Cults used to be common - they cannot all have been the result of dragons possessed by abominations. It is completely illogical.

Demons are many things, but they have not shown themselves to be capable of cleaver manipulation. When abominations had infiltrated the Templars in DA2, blood mages were behind that plot. A demon has does not have the patience, the intellect or the energy required to purposely create a Dragon Cult. Yes, demons can possess corpses and trees - however these are always low-level demons. The more powerful the demon, the more energy it requires - which is why the strongest demons attempt to possess mages. 

[Kijin]

Liliandra Nadiar wrote...

Kijin wrote...
Cats lol - the Desire Demon did not possess a cat. Don't be stupid. The Desire demon took the form of a cat.

Poor Mr Wiggums.

I played Awakening. Demons require emotions - cats have none. A demon can possess a cat, but it will need to find a new host, as the cat does not generate energy that the demon can absorb. 

I suppose the demon could pretend to be a cat, while secretly sowing discord amongst the circle mages, but demons do not seem capable of such subtlty. 

Edit: Well, most don't.

Modifié par Kijin, 02 avril 2011 - 02:25 .

[Liliandra Nadiar]

As a cat owner/servant, I can't buy that he doesn't have emotions. Maybe not as intense as human, but he has emotion.

By your logic then... what? A Rage Demon got loose, decided to take the form a cat until it came across some templars then burst and attacked?

[Weskerr]

Well thought out and well written post. If the Old Gods and the Forgotten Ones are indeed one and the same, as you think, then it could be presumed that, since the Dread Wolf sealed away the gods of heaven and hell in their respective realms and is the only god still in the mortal realm, and if Flemeth is an Old God and Forgoteen One (as they are one and the same), then Flemeth is the Dread Wolf of Elvhen legend.

[Kijin]

Liliandra Nadiar wrote...

As a cat owner/servant, I can't buy that he doesn't have emotions. Maybe not as intense as human, but he has emotion.

By your logic then... what? A Rage Demon got loose, decided to take the form a cat until it came across some templars then burst and attacked?

Ugh that topic has already been done to death, so I am not going to touch it. 

Demons want to escape into the human realm at all costs. Obviously demons want to possess the strongest being it can find - but if all they can find is a cat, then that is what a demon will possess. Upon doing so, the demon will look for a stronger host. That is what the Rage Demon was trying to do - unfortunately, the Templars are proactive and probably detected it long before it could find a new host. The demon tried to defend itself - and its host was killed. Afterwards, the demon was sent back to the Fade.

[Blacklash93]

Bayz wrote...

That said is amazing you guys had me an entire afternoon defending a theory I do not believe actually  and that I used as example that it "couldd" happen.

I was gone for an hour in the afternoon (and then two hours after 5:00)...  Actually I just got back from my spring vacation last night and don't feel like doing anything productive today.

And I don't really care if you believe it or not. I just find it interesting to talk about... That was before this thread became a lecture on animal psychology and how it relates to demon posession.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 02 avril 2011 - 02:45 .

[Kijin]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Bayz wrote...

That said is amazing you guys had me an entire afternoon defending a theory I do not believe actually  and that I used as example that it "couldd" happen.

I was gone for an hour in the afternoon (and then two hours after 5:00)...  Actually I just got back from my spring vacation last night and don't feel like doing anything productive today.

And I don't really care if you believe it or not. I just find it interesting to talk about... That was before this thread became a lecture on animal psychology and how it relates to demon posession.

I don't know how that happened - I can't believe I derailed my own thread. Hats off to you, Bayz. 

Weskerr wrote...

Well thought out and well written post. If the Old Gods and the Forgotten Ones are indeed one and the same, as you think, then it could be presumed that, since the Dread Wolf sealed away the gods of heaven and hell in their respective realms and is the only god still in the mortal realm, and if Flemeth is an Old God and Forgoteen One (as they are one and the same), then Flemeth is the Dread Wolf of Elvhen legend.

That does stand to reason - it is something I have thought a lot about, but I always encounter a roadblock. If Flemeth is the Dread Wolf Fen Harel, then why does she seem so mortal in DAO and DA2? 

Flemeth can be killed, and she requires an elaborate elven ceremon to bring her back to life. Flemeth clearly has an agenda, but she never seems to cause events. Flemeth reveals in the Stolen Throne novel that Loghain would betray Maric's son Cailan. Although she benefited from this event, she did not seem to cause it. Flemeth seems far weaker than Fen Harel should be - and that part confuses me. If she is Fen Harel, why does she not use all of the power available to her?

[kedcoleman]

Divine beings, in many traditions, are far more fragile than one would presume a God to be. Though possessing great powers, they could be wounded, even killed. I would suspect Flemeth/the Dread Wolf is in this category. And who ever said Fen'Harel needed to be earth-shatteringly powerful? The Wolf is a trickster, a manipulator and shapeshifter whose strength lies in deception and misdirection, not raw power.

[Kijin]

Fen Harel sealed away the Old Gods and the Elven Gods.

She then spends hundreds of years doing nothing, until he finally decides to have children. He shapeshifts into the form of a female, gives birth to Morrigan, and plants false Grimoire all across Ferelden. She then gives an amulet to Hawke, in expectation that Fen Harel's daughter Morrigan will try to kill him/her.

I am having a hard time understanding Fen Harel's motives. I realize that Fen Harel is the trickster God, but his motives seem obscure, even for him. Flemeth's actions seems to be beneath his dignity.

[kedcoleman]

It seems obscure because we really have no idea just what Fen'harel's endgame is. We do know a few things: Flemeth intended to spark a war between the Chantry and the Circles for some reason, possibly just to sow chaos; and she wanted Morrigan to get the grimoire to perform the Dark Ritual, whether or not she actually completed it in your playthrough.

I think more will become evident the deeper into the series we go.

[Kijin]

I agree that Flemeth intended all of that to occur.

By sealing away the Old Gods and the Elven Gods, Fen Harel guaranteed that the only legitimate religion on Thedas was the Chantry. By sparking a religion between the Templars and the Mages, Fen Harel/Flemeth has severely damaged the Chantry's reputation - Flemeth might even be indirectly responsible for the Chantry's downfall.

Flemeth's motivations are obscure, regardless of which origin theory you believe in. However, the Fen Harel theory is by far the most obscure. However, it is still one of the most legitimate theories.

[kedcoleman]

To get really out-there in epileptic tree territory... it's entirely possible Flemeth/the Dread Wolf/Fen'Harel is behind all of the sides of this particular conflict. What if she was the one, in fact, who taught the Tevinters blood magic? It's not outside the realm of possibility, and even keeps in line with the traditional role of Trickster gods. They're often crossed with a "culture hero" role, a figure who discovers or passes an important piece of knowledge to humanity.

She potentially caused the creation of the Chantry by pretending to be "the Maker" and whispering in the ear of an unwitting human slave girl and paving her way to, what she believed was, destiny.

Mages and Chantry have been in a bit of a holding pattern the last few centuries...perhaps she's hoping to cause instability so that one or the other will gain the upper hand.

The only sides she seems to be against against are the Qunari (who seem beyond her influence as of yet) and the Darkspawn, whom she's actively worked against by helping the Warden.

[Torax]

kedcoleman wrote...

To get really out-there in epileptic tree territory... it's entirely possible Flemeth/the Dread Wolf/Fen'Harel is behind all of the sides of this particular conflict. What if she was the one, in fact, who taught the Tevinters blood magic? It's not outside the realm of possibility, and even keeps in line with the traditional role of Trickster gods. They're often crossed with a "culture hero" role, a figure who discovers or passes an important piece of knowledge to humanity.

She potentially caused the creation of the Chantry by pretending to be "the Maker" and whispering in the ear of an unwitting human slave girl and paving her way to, what she believed was, destiny.

Mages and Chantry have been in a bit of a holding pattern the last few centuries...perhaps she's hoping to cause instability so that one or the other will gain the upper hand.

The only sides she seems to be against against are the Qunari (who seem beyond her influence as of yet) and the Darkspawn, whom she's actively worked against by helping the Warden.

Who is to say Flemeth even cares about the Qunari? Or that she even cares about the Chantry. It's all unimportant to someone who has lived as long as she has. Cultures come and go. She only cares about power and magic. The Qunari's powder means nothing. The fate of Magic and the fate of the World in general? Maybe. Races conquer and then they crumble. That goes. Life and Magic are constant. At least that seems to be what Morrigan learned from her and seems more in line with Flemeth's concerns.

I've just never seen her care either way about the Qunari or the Chantry.

[TcheQ]

Flemeth is a Witch of the Wilds.  A Shapechanger just like she has taught Morrigan.  She is older than any creature you meet (including the Rock Wraith).  And she can turn herself from a dowdy crone (DAO) to a hot sexy mama (da2) at will.

Flemeth is many things.