Merrill claims that the Elves possessed blood magic long before the Tevinter Magisters did. Chantry scholars also suggest that this could be true. I don't think she introduced Blood Magic into the world. I think that Flemeth/Fen Harel is far more calculating than you think. Fen Harel did not imprison the Old Gods and the Elven Gods because she felt like it. She did so because she planned it ahead of time. Their imprisonment was all part of an elaborate ruse.
She might have caused the formation of the Chantry - this does make some sense, as if she is Fen Harel, then she was the cause of the downfall of the two other major religions. I like the idea that Flemeth could have pretended to be the Maker - that makes a lot of sense, given how the Maker supposedly retreated from the world. But what does she gain from causing the mages to rebel against the Templars? The rebellion at the end of DA2 could only help the Tevinter Imperium.
I do agree with Torax that Flemeth does not seem to be overly concerned with cultures. She has spent centuries removed from the world. She may care for the large struggles, but she has shown little concern for the fate of Ferelden. She knew that Loghain would betray Cailan at Ostagar (she implied as much during her convo with Maric in Stolen Throne) but she did nothing to stop it.
Is Flemeth a Dragon?
Débuté par
Kijin
, avril 01 2011 01:37
Retour en haut
#102
Posté 02 avril 2011 - 03:56
kedcoleman
-
- Members
- 79 messages
My point, i guess, ultimately is that we won't know *why* she is doing the things she's doing until Bioware sees fit to give us more information. I have little doubt she has a grand tapestry of schemes and deceptions unfolding through the games. The surface has only been scratched.
Or else Flemeth is a total red herring and Gaider and crew are giggling their asses off at these threads.
Or else Flemeth is a total red herring and Gaider and crew are giggling their asses off at these threads.
#103
Posté 02 avril 2011 - 04:01
Blacklash93
-
- Members
- 4 154 messages
I don't see why people think Flemeth is Fen'Harel. She's a cunning opportuninst with a degree of foresight, but that's it. She's not a trickster or full of herself like the Fen'Harel of myth.
There's nothing about her even remotely wolf related. She's too busy looking like a dragon.
There's nothing about her even remotely wolf related. She's too busy looking like a dragon.
#104
Posté 02 avril 2011 - 04:04
Torax
-
- Members
- 1 829 messages
I think Flemeth cares about Magic and probably the fate of the World. But she lets them play out as they see fit. She saw that both the Hero & the Champion were meant to do something. But she didn't Engineer anything beyond helping to their goals. Though she did send Morrigan with the Hero. This has more to do with the 2 of them and not anything else. The amulet was an Insurance Policy. It explains to the players who imported why Flemeth is alive since most likely she is dead. She wasn't even a hard dragon fight.
She does seem to have Seer like powers. She wasn't the only one though. One was locked away by a Magister in a Statue in the Circle Tower. I think it's more that by looking at people she can see maybe a part of ones future or past. Why she had to decide if it's Fate or Chance that she even came across the Champion. Why she would ask the Warden what they believe? To tell if what she was seeing is true. "I believe, do I? Why I think I do."
She allowed the Hero and the people of Fereldon to save their land. Flemeth claimed to never have the Chasind raise an army over her banner. I think she'd rather have the mortals decide their fates for themselves. To hold their heads high and bow to no one. Especially do not bow to her. One more key thing about her choice and deals. This would have her respect the Qunari above others. They never back down from a deal. They never lie. She'd respect them. Not hate them.
She does seem to have Seer like powers. She wasn't the only one though. One was locked away by a Magister in a Statue in the Circle Tower. I think it's more that by looking at people she can see maybe a part of ones future or past. Why she had to decide if it's Fate or Chance that she even came across the Champion. Why she would ask the Warden what they believe? To tell if what she was seeing is true. "I believe, do I? Why I think I do."
She allowed the Hero and the people of Fereldon to save their land. Flemeth claimed to never have the Chasind raise an army over her banner. I think she'd rather have the mortals decide their fates for themselves. To hold their heads high and bow to no one. Especially do not bow to her. One more key thing about her choice and deals. This would have her respect the Qunari above others. They never back down from a deal. They never lie. She'd respect them. Not hate them.
#105
Posté 02 avril 2011 - 04:06
Kijin
-
- Members
- 188 messages
That is why I believe Flemeth is actually an ancient high dragon that is incredibly powerful. The Fen'Harel theory is interesting, but his personality is too different for him to be Flemeth.
Fen'Harel sealed away the Elven Gods and the Forgotten Ones; Flemeth seems like she would be too indifferent to care. She cares about herself and little else.
Fen'Harel sealed away the Elven Gods and the Forgotten Ones; Flemeth seems like she would be too indifferent to care. She cares about herself and little else.
#106
Posté 02 avril 2011 - 04:08
Torax
-
- Members
- 1 829 messages
Kijin wrote...
That is why I believe Flemeth is actually an ancient high dragon that is incredibly powerful. The Fen'Harel theory is interesting, but his personality is too different for him to be Flemeth.
Fen'Harel sealed away the Elven Gods and the Forgotten Ones; Flemeth seems like she would be too indifferent to care. She cares about herself and little else.
Problem is you argue against it when you'd almost justify it. Everything the Dread Wolf did was leave him the only power. Caring about himself. Then he was gone almost anyway. He could be the spirit or not. Trickster and Shape Shifting is the only other implication probably. But you can't say she cares about herself and act like he didn't.
#107
Posté 02 avril 2011 - 04:28
Wompoo
-
- Members
- 767 messages
Flemeth reminds of a scary more sinister version of Elminster. Part demon part human and over the centuries she has evolved into something else (Flemeth). In the DA world I see Flemeth as one very old and very powerful being, who controls or manipulates or takes advantage of events. Flemeth flies of after the promise heading towards her own destiny. She is mortal like Elminster, however one mortal like Elminster you would not bugger around with.
Modifié par Wompoo, 02 avril 2011 - 04:29 .
#108
Posté 02 avril 2011 - 04:32
Blacklash93
-
- Members
- 4 154 messages
I'm kind of hoping she is. Dragons need some place in the story other than just being mini-boss fodder.Kijin wrote...
That is why I believe Flemeth is actually an ancient high dragon that is incredibly powerful.
I don't see why you call something "Dragon Age" and then have them fade into the story's backround forever.
Modifié par Blacklash93, 02 avril 2011 - 05:33 .
#109
Posté 02 avril 2011 - 04:41
Zan Mura
-
- Members
- 476 messages
Well hmm. Assuming she'd be the maker seems kinda far fetched as it is, and if that were the case, then her apparent "Mortality" would prove nothing at all. A real God could play around however they pleased, manipulating and misleading, or just in general being beyond mortal understanding.
Anyway, I've moaned about the Old God theory myself too for a few weeks now. It's based on no proof of anything at all, just entertaining a random thought. I said this in another topic but I'll post it here too, let's entertain the following idea:
A long, long time ago, magic was wide-spread and well researched in Thedas. The magics and the mages that existed then were far more powerful than anything left in the modern world where the games take place. Possibly like Morrigan theorized, these mages might have able to fuse with demons creating not abominations, but something else where the human part is still aware and in control. Who knows what other powers and secrets they had. Let's assume that during that time, there was a certain group of the most powerful Mage lords in the world who came up with the idea to combine their efforts into reaching the unreachable: The proverbial Tower of Babylon, to grab at the very core of magic and power, of existence itself perhaps.
They went deeper into the Fade than anyone ever had before. Into places that would make your common demons seem petty and insignificant by comparison. There they found something so powerful and so primal, that it corrupted everything. It would warp reality and create a form of fusion between possession and raw magic, that reached beyond the veil, spreading into the minds and bodies of everything it touched. This was the birth of the darkspawn and the blight. The corrupted mage lords would fall, and become the conduits for this disease. Powerful, almost mindless creatures that knew nothing but death and destruction. Later history, wars, lost records and censorship for the sake of public conrol would eventually cause people to forget what really happened, or perhaps no-one outside of a select few never even knew. Regardless, the Chantry was born, and these ancient, corrupted mages were labeled the Old Gods. Perhaps originally that title was but a reverence to the most powerful mages who used to rule over Thedas.
But among the godly mages who fell, there was one who survived through the ages. Flemeth. She was at the core of it all, or very close to it. And has since been working through some plan of her own, amused by the changing world around her with its wild fantasies and political power struggles, as people long since forgot what was what, and how it all even started. Or perhaps she's just some lucky freak of nature who succeeded in following their footsteps, and is herself trying to unveil what actually happened at the beginning of it all.
Obviously most of that crap up there is pure fantasy, and all wrong. Or it could be surprisingly close to the truth. Depending on whether BW is ever gonna give us those answers, we may never know. The theme in DA - after all -, is that it's a world where there are no clear rights and wrongs, and most things aren't given an explanation. You just have to decide for yourself what you want to believe in.
Anyway, I've moaned about the Old God theory myself too for a few weeks now. It's based on no proof of anything at all, just entertaining a random thought. I said this in another topic but I'll post it here too, let's entertain the following idea:
A long, long time ago, magic was wide-spread and well researched in Thedas. The magics and the mages that existed then were far more powerful than anything left in the modern world where the games take place. Possibly like Morrigan theorized, these mages might have able to fuse with demons creating not abominations, but something else where the human part is still aware and in control. Who knows what other powers and secrets they had. Let's assume that during that time, there was a certain group of the most powerful Mage lords in the world who came up with the idea to combine their efforts into reaching the unreachable: The proverbial Tower of Babylon, to grab at the very core of magic and power, of existence itself perhaps.
They went deeper into the Fade than anyone ever had before. Into places that would make your common demons seem petty and insignificant by comparison. There they found something so powerful and so primal, that it corrupted everything. It would warp reality and create a form of fusion between possession and raw magic, that reached beyond the veil, spreading into the minds and bodies of everything it touched. This was the birth of the darkspawn and the blight. The corrupted mage lords would fall, and become the conduits for this disease. Powerful, almost mindless creatures that knew nothing but death and destruction. Later history, wars, lost records and censorship for the sake of public conrol would eventually cause people to forget what really happened, or perhaps no-one outside of a select few never even knew. Regardless, the Chantry was born, and these ancient, corrupted mages were labeled the Old Gods. Perhaps originally that title was but a reverence to the most powerful mages who used to rule over Thedas.
But among the godly mages who fell, there was one who survived through the ages. Flemeth. She was at the core of it all, or very close to it. And has since been working through some plan of her own, amused by the changing world around her with its wild fantasies and political power struggles, as people long since forgot what was what, and how it all even started. Or perhaps she's just some lucky freak of nature who succeeded in following their footsteps, and is herself trying to unveil what actually happened at the beginning of it all.
Obviously most of that crap up there is pure fantasy, and all wrong. Or it could be surprisingly close to the truth. Depending on whether BW is ever gonna give us those answers, we may never know. The theme in DA - after all -, is that it's a world where there are no clear rights and wrongs, and most things aren't given an explanation. You just have to decide for yourself what you want to believe in.
#110
Posté 02 avril 2011 - 05:13
Vicious
-
- Members
- 3 221 messages
Yawn. She's some kind of crazy dragon or an old god. I thought this was kind of obvious in DA:O where she goes from being 'Flemeth' to 'Flemeth the Shapeshifter' like it's her true form, while good ol Morrigan never once indicates that she became a Dragon in her presence. [might be a gameplay reason behind that though, can never take lore 100% seriously when it's in a game as opposed to a book] That said, she is obviously mortal, and vulnerable to the blight.
'Is it fate or chance? I can never decide.'
I agree with the OP. She is a puppet that can see the strings. When one looks behind the curtain and traces the strings upward he finds they terminate in the hands of yet other puppets, themselves with their own strings which trace upward in turn, and so on. And those strings whose origins are endless enact the deaths of great men in violence and madness.
'Is it fate or chance? I can never decide.'
I agree with the OP. She is a puppet that can see the strings. When one looks behind the curtain and traces the strings upward he finds they terminate in the hands of yet other puppets, themselves with their own strings which trace upward in turn, and so on. And those strings whose origins are endless enact the deaths of great men in violence and madness.
#111
Posté 02 avril 2011 - 05:14
Camenae
-
- Members
- 825 messages
Flemeth = Daenerys Targaryen. Just sayin'
#112
Posté 02 avril 2011 - 07:45
Alyka
-
- Members
- 1 161 messages
I don't know what she is but she could be Fen'Harel.
Here are some points to help in speculation:
- The place where the ritual is held is where the ancient elves went to sleep (Uthenera).Merrill mentions it.Why would Flemeth's resurrection require a Dalish ritual? We know from DA:O that during a conflict in the Brecilian Forest, an Arcane Warrior was trapped in a phylactery.Flemeth traps herself in an amulet.Since a phylactery contains blood, blood magic is probably required to trap someone inside of it.
Hawke: "I agreed to deliver the amulet, though you could have told me you were inside it."
Flemeth: "Just a piece.A small piece, but it was all I needed.A bit of security,should the inevitable occur.And if I know my Morrigan,it already has."
- Flemeth refers to Merrill as "One of the people".She doesn't say Dalish or elves.Maybe she is a part of them? A Dalish god? She then goes on to say "The people bend their knee too quickly." Worship?
- Flemeth can be in more than one place at the same time.
Flemeth: "Must I be in only one place? Bodies are such limiting things.I am but a fragment cast adrift from the whole.A bit of flotsam to cling to in the storm!"
- On Morrigan:
Hawke: "I'm not sure whether she's your daughter or your enemy."
Flemeth: "Neither is she."
Does Flemeth mean that Morrigan is not sure (Neither is she sure) or does she mean Morrigan is neither her daughter or her enemy( Neither of those is she)? It's vague.It could be taken both ways.
She doesn't refer to Morrigan as her daughter:
Flemeth: "She's a girl who thinks she knows what is what better than I,or anyone." "And if I know my Morrigan,it already has."
What is Flemeth? She says:
"I am a fly in the ointment,I am a whisper in the shadows.I am also an old, old woman.More than that, you need not know."
Here are some points to help in speculation:
- The place where the ritual is held is where the ancient elves went to sleep (Uthenera).Merrill mentions it.Why would Flemeth's resurrection require a Dalish ritual? We know from DA:O that during a conflict in the Brecilian Forest, an Arcane Warrior was trapped in a phylactery.Flemeth traps herself in an amulet.Since a phylactery contains blood, blood magic is probably required to trap someone inside of it.
Hawke: "I agreed to deliver the amulet, though you could have told me you were inside it."
Flemeth: "Just a piece.A small piece, but it was all I needed.A bit of security,should the inevitable occur.And if I know my Morrigan,it already has."
- Flemeth refers to Merrill as "One of the people".She doesn't say Dalish or elves.Maybe she is a part of them? A Dalish god? She then goes on to say "The people bend their knee too quickly." Worship?
- Flemeth can be in more than one place at the same time.
Flemeth: "Must I be in only one place? Bodies are such limiting things.I am but a fragment cast adrift from the whole.A bit of flotsam to cling to in the storm!"
- On Morrigan:
Hawke: "I'm not sure whether she's your daughter or your enemy."
Flemeth: "Neither is she."
Does Flemeth mean that Morrigan is not sure (Neither is she sure) or does she mean Morrigan is neither her daughter or her enemy( Neither of those is she)? It's vague.It could be taken both ways.
She doesn't refer to Morrigan as her daughter:
Flemeth: "She's a girl who thinks she knows what is what better than I,or anyone." "And if I know my Morrigan,it already has."
What is Flemeth? She says:
"I am a fly in the ointment,I am a whisper in the shadows.I am also an old, old woman.More than that, you need not know."
Modifié par Alyka, 02 avril 2011 - 07:49 .
#114
Posté 02 avril 2011 - 11:42
Bayz
-
- Members
- 603 messages
Kijin wrote...
You wouldn't be arguing with me if you weren't having fun. But I digress.
Obviously not
I think all you and Blackslash say is quite interesting otherwise I would have given up. If I am investing my time in answering and searching for sources is because I am having a good time, if it looks the opposite it's just because I am not the most social animal on earth. Besides it is the first topic I readed after I woke up this morningKijin wrote...
If dragons are not capable of emotions, then the only way a demon could sustain itself while possessing a dragon would be if a Dragon Cult formed. How this cult forms is meaningless - what matters is this is an incredibly convulted method of creating a guaranteed food source. More importantly, Dragon Cults used to be common - they cannot all have been the result of dragons possessed by abominations. It is completely illogical.
Not necessarily. Imagine a demon is invoked by the elves, somehow the bargain goes wrong needs to flee and the only suitable host it can find is a dragon. It manages to posses it and because need people to bargain with it to feed finds a tribe of primitive humans. Bargains with one of the humans that it will teach him Magic (Blood Magic which is the first form of Magic of Thedas it seems, again no source in the wiki for that) in exchange of worship (bargain to sustain itself). This guy manages to create with the magic the Tevinter Empire and extend dragon cults everywhere (remember the religion of the Old Gods were a form and probably the first of "Dragon Cults").
Demons tend to favour their kin (read other demon subdits) to be in their world, the most powerful of their vassals may have become the other Old Gods and the rest is history...
Kijin wrote...
Demons are many things, but they have not shown themselves to be capable of cleaver manipulation. When abominations had infiltrated the Templars in DA2, blood mages were behind that plot. A demon has does not have the patience, the intellect or the energy required to purposely create a Dragon Cult. Yes, demons can possess corpses and trees - however these are always low-level demons. The more powerful the demon, the more energy it requires - which is why the strongest demons attempt to possess mages.
Well high dragons haven't shown themselves capable of clever manipulation. When Dragon Cults are formed usually apostates or mages (probably blood mages most of the time) are behind the scenes. A dragon does not have the patience, the intellect or the energy...
Yet we keep debating
Kijin wrote...
I don't
know how that happened - I can't believe I derailed my own thread. Hats
off to you, Bayz.
It had to do with the mint sauce of my cornish pastry I had for dinner I'm pretty sure...<_< OR may have been that Domino's Pizza of undetermined date I had for breakfast (Stop Right there before it degenerates into a lecture of Student Feeding Habits)
Kijin wrote...
Merrill claims that the Elves possessed
blood magic long before the Tevinter Magisters did. Chantry
scholars also suggest that this could be true. I don't think she
introduced Blood Magic into the world. I think that Flemeth/Fen Harel is
far more calculating than you think. Fen Harel did not imprison the Old
Gods and the Elven Gods because she felt like it. She did so because
she planned it ahead of time. Their imprisonment was all part of an
elaborate ruse.
Well actually one thing doesn't really need to discredit the other...elves should have to learn bloodmagic from somewhere after all...But I agree to the post for some extent. Flemmeth Plans seems to go from one Millenia to the other...the fast paced ones I mean
Kijin wrote...
I do agree with Torax that Flemeth does not
seem to be overly concerned with cultures. She has spent centuries
removed from the world. She may care for the large struggles, but she
has shown little concern for the fate of Ferelden. She knew that Loghain
would betray Cailan at Ostagar (she implied as much during her convo
with Maric in Stolen Throne) but she did nothing to stop it.
She probably shaped subtly most of the ones in Thedas...we don't know how long has she been playing the chessmaster in the world really, and she ain't going to tell.
Camenae wrote...
Flemeth = Daenerys Targaryen. Just
sayin'
lol'd
Modifié par Bayz, 02 avril 2011 - 11:42 .
#115
Posté 02 avril 2011 - 11:53
Suron
-
- Members
- 2 245 messages
wow. a lot of you are reading FAAAAAAAAAAAR too much into this.
And since when did Flemeth change her "human" shape?
It's called design change, retcon, or whatever else you want to use.
Or are you saying the Elves, Isabella, and Qunari (just to name a few) are also "shapeshifters"?
don't be stupid.
please, use common sense. Flemeth has been "retconned" to look as she does in DA2...that old woman in DA:O? doesn't exist anymore...old lady with cleavage and "hair-horns" is as our Wardens saw her.
Far as her being Fen-Harel? possibly a basis for the belief sure..and in a sense maybe so..but directly? no.
She's probably either a "pure" old-god like Morrigan's child or an old-god that escaped (or was never put in) prison. And as an extention perhaps the catalyst for other beliefs..like being "fen-harel"...and like the story of Flemeth..the belief and tale the elves tell of Fen-Harel (if Flemeth is indeed a basis for it) isn't entirely true...just like the stories told about Flemeth and Conobar (sp).
either way, again, most of you are reading far too into it.
And since when did Flemeth change her "human" shape?
It's called design change, retcon, or whatever else you want to use.
Or are you saying the Elves, Isabella, and Qunari (just to name a few) are also "shapeshifters"?
don't be stupid.
please, use common sense. Flemeth has been "retconned" to look as she does in DA2...that old woman in DA:O? doesn't exist anymore...old lady with cleavage and "hair-horns" is as our Wardens saw her.
Far as her being Fen-Harel? possibly a basis for the belief sure..and in a sense maybe so..but directly? no.
She's probably either a "pure" old-god like Morrigan's child or an old-god that escaped (or was never put in) prison. And as an extention perhaps the catalyst for other beliefs..like being "fen-harel"...and like the story of Flemeth..the belief and tale the elves tell of Fen-Harel (if Flemeth is indeed a basis for it) isn't entirely true...just like the stories told about Flemeth and Conobar (sp).
either way, again, most of you are reading far too into it.
#116
Posté 02 avril 2011 - 12:30
da0Xeffect2
-
- Members
- 94 messages
I do admit that this theory is very interesting. However, I have been wondering if it is possible that Flemeth may have done some other things with dragons.
As for being Fen'Harel, wouldn't she have done something around the Warden's or Hawke's mabari? Fen'Harel does not like hounds as was mentioned by Merrill in her story to Hawke's dog. It's not a real good debunker but an idea.
I've heard some say she is possibly Mythal? It's interesting that at the altar where you place the locket, there's a scene where Merrill prays to Mythal. Unfortunately, I cannot remember what Merrill said about it.
As for being Fen'Harel, wouldn't she have done something around the Warden's or Hawke's mabari? Fen'Harel does not like hounds as was mentioned by Merrill in her story to Hawke's dog. It's not a real good debunker but an idea.
I've heard some say she is possibly Mythal? It's interesting that at the altar where you place the locket, there's a scene where Merrill prays to Mythal. Unfortunately, I cannot remember what Merrill said about it.
#117
Posté 02 avril 2011 - 01:11
Rifneno
-
- Members
- 12 076 messages
I am very disappointed that dragons are only around dolphin intelligence. Dragons are generally at least at intelligent as humans. Pretty much the entire RPG genre has spawned from D&D, where dragons are so intelligent that many of them find it downright insulting when a creature as simple and stupid as a human even tries to understand them.
Dolphins... well scientists disagree on what the smartest animal is. I throw my hat in with the experts that say parrots. Most of it is due to an African Grey Parrot named Alex raised by a researched named Dr. Irene Pepperberg. She proved these birds have ability to understand things like math that animals like dolphins and chimps have not shown any indication of understanding. Look for some videos of him on youtube or something. It is simply mindblowing. Give him a platter with a bunch of wooden objects of various shapes and colors. Tell him "4 blue blocks." He'll throw off all but 4 blue blocks. Whoever thought "birdbrain" was a good insult clearly must've heard many intelligence-based insults in their lifetime.
But I ramble. On topic, dragons can't work magic... but who says that? Mages are rare in any race, and dragons are so rare in Thedas that people thought they were extinct (then again, they thought that about darkspawn, so...). I'm not writing off the possibility that a dragon mage may exist. Given their extraordinary lfiespan (assuming they do take this aspect from... pretty much every other dragon myth, legend, game, book, or movie) it's possible that a dragon mage can live long enough to advance their powers far beyond what humans and elves can.
On the other side of the coin, such a thing would not be so unheardof as to make Anders take a step back and go "what the hell is that?" Justice knows more of the Fade and thus magic than any mortal could. Even if he hadn't specifically seen this type, it wouldn't be so... alien to him. It also wouldn't explain why she seems to know the future. Magic can do a lot of things, but I have my doubts the most powerful mage could see the things she does.
Flemeth did tell my mage Hawke "You could never be a dragon." It wasn't at the initial meeting though, it was on Sundermount at the ritual site. I don't know why she'd avoid the question to a mage upon first meeting then give a flat no on Sundermount. I forget the exact wording, but I believe it was the diplomatic response asking about her flying advice. She said to be as she, and become a dragon. Then she had a hearty creepy laugh and clarified Hawke could never be a dragon.
Lastly, I don't particularly believe the fact she doesn't fit descriptions of the Dread Wolf (or any other entity) wholly dismisses her as possibly being such. She's a master manipulator and it's not exactly hard to lead people down a false path with legendary figures. Hawke barely qualifies as such and look at the crap Varric has got people believing. "I heard the Champion has killed a dozen dragons, and sleeps on a bed made of their bones! And the Champion uses the Arishok's skull as a gravy boat!" ... that last part was funny as hell, BTW.
Dolphins... well scientists disagree on what the smartest animal is. I throw my hat in with the experts that say parrots. Most of it is due to an African Grey Parrot named Alex raised by a researched named Dr. Irene Pepperberg. She proved these birds have ability to understand things like math that animals like dolphins and chimps have not shown any indication of understanding. Look for some videos of him on youtube or something. It is simply mindblowing. Give him a platter with a bunch of wooden objects of various shapes and colors. Tell him "4 blue blocks." He'll throw off all but 4 blue blocks. Whoever thought "birdbrain" was a good insult clearly must've heard many intelligence-based insults in their lifetime.
But I ramble. On topic, dragons can't work magic... but who says that? Mages are rare in any race, and dragons are so rare in Thedas that people thought they were extinct (then again, they thought that about darkspawn, so...). I'm not writing off the possibility that a dragon mage may exist. Given their extraordinary lfiespan (assuming they do take this aspect from... pretty much every other dragon myth, legend, game, book, or movie) it's possible that a dragon mage can live long enough to advance their powers far beyond what humans and elves can.
On the other side of the coin, such a thing would not be so unheardof as to make Anders take a step back and go "what the hell is that?" Justice knows more of the Fade and thus magic than any mortal could. Even if he hadn't specifically seen this type, it wouldn't be so... alien to him. It also wouldn't explain why she seems to know the future. Magic can do a lot of things, but I have my doubts the most powerful mage could see the things she does.
Flemeth did tell my mage Hawke "You could never be a dragon." It wasn't at the initial meeting though, it was on Sundermount at the ritual site. I don't know why she'd avoid the question to a mage upon first meeting then give a flat no on Sundermount. I forget the exact wording, but I believe it was the diplomatic response asking about her flying advice. She said to be as she, and become a dragon. Then she had a hearty creepy laugh and clarified Hawke could never be a dragon.
Lastly, I don't particularly believe the fact she doesn't fit descriptions of the Dread Wolf (or any other entity) wholly dismisses her as possibly being such. She's a master manipulator and it's not exactly hard to lead people down a false path with legendary figures. Hawke barely qualifies as such and look at the crap Varric has got people believing. "I heard the Champion has killed a dozen dragons, and sleeps on a bed made of their bones! And the Champion uses the Arishok's skull as a gravy boat!" ... that last part was funny as hell, BTW.
#118
Posté 02 avril 2011 - 01:32
Bayz
-
- Members
- 603 messages
Rifneno wrote...
I am very disappointed that dragons are only around dolphin intelligence. Dragons are generally at least at intelligent as humans. Pretty much the entire RPG genre has spawned from D&D, where dragons are so intelligent that many of them find it downright insulting when a creature as simple and stupid as a human even tries to understand them.
I totally share the feeling here. Specially coming to the fact that the game is called Dragon Age, but I guess Mabari Age wouldn't sell too much...I'll buy it though.
Rifneno wrote...
Dolphins... well scientists disagree on what the smartest animal is. I throw my hat in with the experts that say parrots. Most of it is due to an African Grey Parrot named Alex raised by a researched named Dr. Irene Pepperberg. She proved these birds have ability to understand things like math that animals like dolphins and chimps have not shown any indication of understanding. Look for some videos of him on youtube or something. It is simply mindblowing. Give him a platter with a bunch of wooden objects of various shapes and colors. Tell him "4 blue blocks." He'll throw off all but 4 blue blocks. Whoever thought "birdbrain" was a good insult clearly must've heard many intelligence-based insults in their lifetime.
I thought humans were the smartest animal, bloody parrots out smarting us in everything:pinched:
Rifneno wrote...
But I ramble. On topic, dragons can't work magic... but who says that? Mages are rare in any race, and dragons are so rare in Thedas that people thought they were extinct (then again, they thought that about darkspawn, so...). I'm not writing off the possibility that a dragon mage may exist. Given their extraordinary lfiespan (assuming they do take this aspect from... pretty much every other dragon myth, legend, game, book, or movie) it's possible that a dragon mage can live long enough to advance their powers far beyond what humans and elves can.
Mages need for the creature to be sentient and have connections to the fade. If you believe dragons are sentient this is a fair argument, but canon leaves it undefined so we can discuss it for entire lifetimes and David Gaider can laugh in the meantime.
Rifneno wrote...
On the other side of the coin, such a thing would not be so unheardof as to make Anders take a step back and go "what the hell is that?" Justice knows more of the Fade and thus magic than any mortal could. Even if he hadn't specifically seen this type, it wouldn't be so... alien to him. It also wouldn't explain why she seems to know the future. Magic can do a lot of things, but I have my doubts the most powerful mage could see the things she does.
Flemmeth is way more than a human. Is not only premonition, she seems to think in reaaaally long terms. She probably shaped Thedas since inmemorial times and keeps doing it...and will keep doing it in the future (aye, canonsue but she seems to be the nexus of the Dragon Age saga so it is understandable)
Rifneno wrote...
Flemeth did tell my mage Hawke "You could never be a dragon." It wasn't at the initial meeting though, it was on Sundermount at the ritual site. I don't know why she'd avoid the question to a mage upon first meeting then give a flat no on Sundermount. I forget the exact wording, but I believe it was the diplomatic response asking about her flying advice. She said to be as she, and become a dragon. Then she had a hearty creepy laugh and clarified Hawke could never be a dragon.
Can you even learn the shapeshifter specialization as a mage? As far as I know Flemmeth and Morrigan seems to be the only ones able to shapeshift (along with demons)...might mean only that or might mean something more but thats up to the player for the moment.
Rifneno wrote...
Lastly, I don't particularly believe the fact she doesn't fit descriptions of the Dread Wolf (or any other entity) wholly dismisses her as possibly being such. She's a master manipulator and it's not exactly hard to lead people down a false path with legendary figures. Hawke barely qualifies as such and look at the crap Varric has got people believing. "I heard the Champion has killed a dozen dragons, and sleeps on a bed made of their bones! And the Champion uses the Arishok's skull as a gravy boat!" ... that last part was funny as hell, BTW.
I agree with that. She remonds me a lot to Jessica Atreides (and the Bene Gesserit as a whole) in that respect. I don't see why she couldn't just be even every single myth just in order to make the masses more easily manipulable. But I also think it tends to backfire her a lot though.
#119
Posté 02 avril 2011 - 01:55
Rifneno
-
- Members
- 12 076 messages
Bayz wrote...
I thought humans were the smartest animal, bloody parrots out smarting us in everything:pinched:
Ha. I usually word it as the most intelligent animal besides humans, but it usually ends up with somebody arguing that humans aren't animals. So I left it out this time and you called me on it. Can't catch a break, I tell ya!
Mages need for the creature to be sentient and have connections to the fade. If you believe dragons are sentient this is a fair argument, but canon leaves it undefined so we can discuss it for entire lifetimes and David Gaider can laugh in the meantime.
Meh. I'm not really going to put much stock in that part. "Sentient" is one of those words that gets tossed around so much it has a thousand meanings. By some definitions (Webster's lowest is simply, "aware") you could say that a mouse is sentient. With some other ones, half the people I know barely qualify.
As for Mr. Gaider.. I'm ok with him laughing to himself at our squirming, this story warrants it.
Can you even learn the shapeshifter specialization as a mage? As far as I know Flemmeth and Morrigan seems to be the only ones able to shapeshift (along with demons)...might mean only that or might mean something more but thats up to the player for the moment.
In DAO you could, yes. In fact it leads to one of the few times Morrigan makes a funny. If you ask her if she'd teach shapeshifting, she'll ask who for. If you say Wynne, she sarcastically says "Well then let's hope old dogs really can learn new tricks." Unfortunately the dialogue is bugged and she'll refuse to teach it even if she's supposed to so people don't usually see it without a mod. Annnyway, Morrigan explains that it's basically a very rare type of magic that the Chantry doesn't particularly approve of but nothing like they do of blood magic. Perhaps we don't have it in DA2 because it's so rare and there's no one to teach it to Hawke. Or perhaps it's just because that specialization really... really... sucked.
I agree with that. She remonds me a lot to Jessica Atreides (and the Bene Gesserit as a whole) in that respect. I don't see why she couldn't just be even every single myth just in order to make the masses more easily manipulable. But I also think it tends to backfire her a lot though.
Reminds me of Xenosaga, hehe. jRPG hate aside, another game that made you think.
#120
Posté 02 avril 2011 - 02:13
Bayz
-
- Members
- 603 messages
Rifneno wrote...
In DAO you could, yes. In fact it leads to one of the few times Morrigan makes a funny. If you ask her if she'd teach shapeshifting, she'll ask who for. If you say Wynne, she sarcastically says "Well then let's hope old dogs really can learn new tricks." Unfortunately the dialogue is bugged and she'll refuse to teach it even if she's supposed to so people don't usually see it without a mod. Annnyway, Morrigan explains that it's basically a very rare type of magic that the Chantry doesn't particularly approve of but nothing like they do of blood magic. Perhaps we don't have it in DA2 because it's so rare and there's no one to teach it to Hawke. Or perhaps it's just because that specialization really... really... sucked.
I meant in DA2, I haven't played with mage yet that's why I asked. I know it sucked, that's probably why the chantry forbade it probably...Would have loved to become a dragon myself but Flemmeth didn't taught that to Morrigan, which seeing the daughter love she distilled herself and her selflisness and generall beauty as a person and human being I really don't understand...
Reminds me of Xenosaga, hehe. jRPG hate aside, another
game that made you think.
*grows beard and fatter, shirt with Pulp Fiction reference becomes a Star Wars one* Bloody jRPG's they are not RPG's japanese don't know how to make videogames (rant rant rant rant rant). Arf arf...*returns to his Suikoden V game*
Modifié par Bayz, 02 avril 2011 - 02:21 .
#122
Posté 02 avril 2011 - 04:41
LadyVaJedi
-
- Members
- 475 messages
I agree with you Torax. But I do think she is one of the old God/dess untainted and that she does care about the fate of the world.
#123
Posté 02 avril 2011 - 05:34
Kijin
-
- Members
- 188 messages
Torax wrote...
Problem is you argue against it when you'd almost justify it. Everything the Dread Wolf did was leave him the only power. Caring about himself. Then he was gone almost anyway. He could be the spirit or not. Trickster and Shape Shifting is the only other implication probably. But you can't say she cares about herself and act like he didn't.
I don't want to be rude, but I'm not sure exactly what you are trying to say here. I do think that the Fen'Harel theory is a valid one, but I think the Dragon theory is far more likely. The Fen'Harel theory is based upon the assumption that Flemeth has no intended goal, whereas I believe Flemeth has demonstrated quite clearly that she has some sort of objective in mind.
Backlash93 wrote...
I'm kind of hoping she is. Dragons need some place in the story other than just being mini-boss fodder.
I don't see why you call something "Dragon Age" and then have them fade into the story's backround forever.
I completely agree - Dragons need to be important based solely on the name. So far, they have yet to do anything special - so I'm assuming that dragons will become important later on. This could just be fanwank on my part, though.
Bayz wrote...
Obviously not I think all you and Blackslash say is quite interesting otherwise I would have given up. If I am investing my time in answering and searching for sources is because I am having a good time, if it looks the opposite it's just because I am not the most social animal on earth. Besides it is the first topic I readed after I woke up this morning
You're good people, Bayz.Bayz wrote...
Not necessarily. Imagine a demon is invoked by the elves, somehow the bargain goes wrong needs to flee and the only suitable host it can find is a dragon. It manages to posses it and because need people to bargain with it to feed finds a tribe of primitive humans. Bargains with one of the humans that it will teach him Magic (Blood Magic which is the first form of Magic of Thedas it seems, again no source in the wiki for that) in exchange of worship (bargain to sustain itself). This guy manages to create with the magic the Tevinter Empire and extend dragon cults everywhere (remember the religion of the Old Gods were a form and probably the first of "Dragon Cults").
Demons tend to favour their kin (read other demon subdits) to be in their world, the most powerful of their vassals may have become the other Old Gods and the rest is history...
This could be a reasonable theory, except we don't know how long a demon can last without a source of energy. Justice seemed like he could last for a couple of months, but that's probably the limit. More importantly, mages can sense abominations. A talented mage will know if the creature is possessed or not. If the demonically possessed dragon were to try to cut a deal with a local mage, then mage (assuming he is of sufficient power) would be able to sense that the dragon was possessed (some mages are able to sense the presence of demons - such as Merril and Morrigan). While many people may be willing to follow dragons, they will be less likely to follow a demon. You can't expect me to believe that nobody would realize that all of these dragons are actually abominations, when the Tevinter Imperium was filled with powerful mages.
Bayz wrote...
Well high dragons haven't shown themselves capable of clever manipulation. When Dragon Cults are formed usually apostates or mages (probably blood mages most of the time) are behind the scenes. A dragon does not have the patience, the intellect or the energy...
Yet we keep debating
If we assume that Flemeth is a High Dragon, then we know that dragons are capable of manipulation - and if you believe that the Old Gods were simply ancient powerful dragons, then they are also proof that dragons are capable of being clever. But you don't agree - so the circle continues...
Bayz wrote...
It had to do with the mint sauce of my cornish pastry I had for dinner I'm pretty sure... OR may have been that Domino's Pizza of undetermined date I had for breakfast (Stop Right there before it degenerates into a lecture of Student Feeding Habits)
If you think your habits are bad, you should have seen mine! I make yours look good.
Suron wrote...
wow. a lot of you are reading FAAAAAAAAAAAR too much into this.
And since when did Flemeth change her "human" shape?
It's called design change, retcon, or whatever else you want to use.
Or are you saying the Elves, Isabella, and Qunari (just to name a few) are also "shapeshifters"?
Some of the Elves and Qunari are shapeshifters - but their change in appearance is not due to shapeshifting. Although some of the art has been redesigned, all of the lore remains the same. Since this is the case, we know that Flemeth is still capable of shapeshifting - which means she might have changed her appearance because she wanted to appear more intimidating to Hawke. When she met the Warden, she appeared more docile because it suited her interests. We are supposing that Flemeth changes her appearance to suit her needs. So no, we are not reading far into this.
#124
Posté 02 avril 2011 - 05:58
Iosev
-
- Members
- 685 messages
Sometimes I wonder if Flemeth is really Fen'harel, the Dread Wolf and Lord of Tricksters, or at least in some way related to the being. Not only does Flemeth seem to be aware of the true nature of the world, but she has close ties to the elves.
I think it's important not to believe one religion over another (Andrastrian, Elven Pantheon, etc.), but how the different beliefs relate to each other. In addition, we shouldn't believe in all of the things stated within each religion. It's entirely possible that the Chantry, the Dalish, the Tevinters, and so on, each hold a part of the truth of the world, but like many things in history, many things have been altered as time has passed.
So with that in mind, we shouldn't take the myths of Fen'harel so literally. Instead of comparing Flemeth to the exact myth (which may have been altered throughout the years), merely consider how she seems to be very knowledgeable of true nature of the world, as well as the fact that she seems to be very cryptic.
I think it's important not to believe one religion over another (Andrastrian, Elven Pantheon, etc.), but how the different beliefs relate to each other. In addition, we shouldn't believe in all of the things stated within each religion. It's entirely possible that the Chantry, the Dalish, the Tevinters, and so on, each hold a part of the truth of the world, but like many things in history, many things have been altered as time has passed.
So with that in mind, we shouldn't take the myths of Fen'harel so literally. Instead of comparing Flemeth to the exact myth (which may have been altered throughout the years), merely consider how she seems to be very knowledgeable of true nature of the world, as well as the fact that she seems to be very cryptic.
Modifié par arcelonious, 02 avril 2011 - 06:06 .
#125
Posté 02 avril 2011 - 07:15
PantheraOnca
-
- Members
- 429 messages
Mages need for the creature to be sentient and have connections to the fade. If you believe dragons are sentient this is a fair argument, but canon leaves it undefined so we can discuss it for entire lifetimes and David Gaider can laugh in the meantime.
I don't know that you need fade-yness to wield blood magic. Reaverness is thought to be a form of blood magic, but its not your typical magery.
