30 réponses à ce sujet

[sammcl]

Is it just me or has every demon's deal been pretty easy to say no to? It always seems to be something like "Aww, c'mon, just let me possess them, I promise I won't do anything nasty." Yeah right, die demon! I liked seeing Hawke's companions fall victim to a demon's deal but whenever the playable character is presented with a choice the answer is pretty easy to arrive at.

Torpor's deal for example, "Let me possess Feynriel and I'll only use his power to secure my position in the Fade" nevermind that only seconds ago the Dalish Keeper told you that if a demon ever possessed a Dreamer the results would be catastrophic. Nice deal Torpor, I think not!

Then there was Kitty in Shale's recruitment mission in Origins, "Let me possess the girl, I want to be free!" No matter what you do, you get the password to activate Shale, pretty easy choice again.

There's the Demon tricking the Templar in the Circle Tower, "I'm giving him the life he wants, just let me take him" So, let a demon go free with the Templar or kill both the Templar and the demon. The Templar's not exactly himself so I don't see anyone having qualms about killing him to set him free of the demon.

And finally, the only demon with any weight to their deal, the one keeping Arl Eamon alive who offers to teach you Blood Magic. This would be better however if you couldn't just reload a prior save after learning Blood Magic and have it unlocked O_o It also doesn't help that the demon has been raising corpses to attack Redcliffe and has already killed a bunch of people.

It's just a little disappointing, I'd like to see a choice with some real weight to it, for example, what if Andraste's ashes wouldn't cure Eamon, so he could actually die. Then you have to choose between Eamon's life and Connor's. Without Eamon you'd have considerably less support at the Landsmeet but you have to weigh that against letting the demon take Connor, and you've already seen what chaos that can cause.

[Satyricon331]

sammcl wrote...
And finally, the only demon with any weight to their deal, the one keeping Arl Eamon alive who offers to teach you Blood Magic. This would be better however if you couldn't just reload a prior save after learning Blood Magic and have it unlocked O_o It also doesn't help that the demon has been raising corpses to attack Redcliffe and has already killed a bunch of people.

That demon also offers you a Tome of (Ethereal Suggestion?) that gives you an extra spell/talent, which I always take if I have enough Coercion to pass both intimidate checkpoints.

I agree most demons don't have much to offer you.  I think if they generally gave things that both made sense storywise and appealed to the player then it would more tempting.  Upping spell picks would be great in my book 

[Kaiser Shepard]

Well, Torpor does give you two levels worth of attribute points...

But yeah, I get your point.

[Dark Specie]

Well, what do you expect? As things are explained, we know that all or most spirits of the Fade are basically noobs when it coems to understanding how human thinking or the material realm truly works, so...

[Camenae]

I also thought demons' deals are pretty easy for a normal person to say no to: The aesthetic reasons! Anders is totally right about that. If I were a mage, I wouldn't care if the demon promised me all the power and money in the universe, I am NOT going to look like that for all eternity or however long abominations live if Hawke/the Warden don't kill them. I can honestly say that I would much rather die than look the way abominations do.

[sammcl]

Dark Specie wrote...

Well, what do you expect? As things are explained, we know that all or most spirits of the Fade are basically noobs when it coems to understanding how human thinking or the material realm truly works, so...

Three out of the four examples were desire demons, who are meant to be able to manipulate humans very well. And they do seem to do it well to NPCs, it's just a shame the deals offered to the player are so weak.

I tend to dismiss attribute points as a good reward since they only affect the playable character and are only a marginal improvement. If I was actually having difficulty getting through fights to that point, I may reconsider. The spell/talent point is alright I guess, but again, if you aren't having trouble, there's really no need. The best reward was unlocking an entire new spell tree.

[sammcl]

Camenae wrote...

I also thought demons' deals are pretty easy for a normal person to say no to: The aesthetic reasons! Anders is totally right about that. If I were a mage, I wouldn't care if the demon promised me all the power and money in the universe, I am NOT going to look like that for all eternity or however long abominations live if Hawke/the Warden don't kill them. I can honestly say that I would much rather die than look the way abominations do.

Hah, I loved Hawke's sarcastic response to the Pride Demon, "Have you seen an abomination? they are ug-ly!"

[Talladarr]

sammcl wrote...

Dark Specie wrote...

Well, what do you expect? As things are explained, we know that all or most spirits of the Fade are basically noobs when it coems to understanding how human thinking or the material realm truly works, so...

Three out of the four examples were desire demons, who are meant to be able to manipulate humans very well. And they do seem to do it well to NPCs, it's just a shame the deals offered to the player are so weak.

I tend to dismiss attribute points as a good reward since they only affect the playable character and are only a marginal improvement. If I was actually having difficulty getting through fights to that point, I may reconsider. The spell/talent point is alright I guess, but again, if you aren't having trouble, there's really no need. The best reward was unlocking an entire new spell tree.

Now THAT I'd deal for

[Satyricon331]

sammcl wrote...
The spell/talent point is alright I guess, but again, if you aren't having trouble, there's really no need. The best reward was unlocking an entire new spell tree.

Ah, I see.  Well, I for one really enjoy having more spells.  It's just more fun for me... I can totally see why you wouldn't though.  I mean, one spell or three attribute points or whatever don't really change much in actuality.

And fwiw, I thought in DAO you should have needed to unlock a specialty in each playthrough - not unlock it once and for all.  I roleplayed so I never took a spec until I passed the point I would have unlocked it, but that;s just me.

[Alexein]

I agree, we need some better deals, i hear the desire demon down the street is offering a 2 for 1 deal, limited time offer!

From a gamer's perspective, the whole spell tree sounds VERY enticing, i would actually stop and think about that for a minute, especially if its counterbalanced by something very important to the plot, like the cost being a party member.

Who knows, maybe the deal can BE a party member, You get a regular party member and when the demon quest comes up you can 1) refuse the deal and keep said member or 2) get the member possessed but now have a super-demon-powered party member.... would do wonders for the romance

But yeah, demons do need better deals.

[PsychoBlonde]

The *best* Faustian bargain in all of DA2 is when Bartrand's former partner approaches you and offers to pay your way into the expedition. Likewise the best one in Origins was "Mouse" in the Mage Origin.

What they need to do is to stop having demons show up *as* demons and offer you obviously stupid deals. It's difficult to believe the sincerity of an inhuman monstrosity, especially since history has shown that they ultimately ALWAYS turn on you.

Also, they need to start putting in a few "benign" demons that really are moderate in their desires and actually do assist the people they possess/deal with. Not benevolent, maybe, but not crazed betrayers. That would start to make the situation much more interesting and much more complex.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

The Hunger Demon you come across in the Deep Roads seems the 'closest' to that. The Profane were already there, he just fed off them and gave them leadership.

[GSSAGE7]

Alexein wrote...

Who knows, maybe the deal can BE a party member, You get a regular party member and when the demon quest comes up you can 1) refuse the deal and keep said member or 2) get the member possessed but now have a super-demon-powered party member.... would do wonders for the romance

Well blood magic is supposed to be able to allow one to summon or control demons, so maybe that would be a new branch on the blood magic tree, like how the old Ranger spec let you summon animals. You'd be able to summon a shade or a rage demon.

PsychoBlonde wrote...
Also, they need to start putting in a
few "benign" demons that really are moderate in their desires and
actually do assist the people they possess/deal with.

Insert reference to Justice/Vengence here...

Modifié par GSSAGE7, 01 avril 2011 - 03:29 .

[The Angry One]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

The *best* Faustian bargain in all of DA2 is when Bartrand's former partner approaches you and offers to pay your way into the expedition. Likewise the best one in Origins was "Mouse" in the Mage Origin.

I don't really see how in either case.
With Dougal, it's on the surface not a terrible deal. Bartrand's an ass, you don't know Dougal as any kind of bad person (he tried to have Bartrand killed? That's positively normal in Dwarven politics).
The consequences aren't bad either, he just ambushes you in an easy fight because he's greedy and stupid.

The Mouse deal is contingent on you being an idiot (believing a silly sob story that has little precident) and you can't fall for it regardless.

Modifié par The Angry One, 01 avril 2011 - 03:27 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

But I let Sophia Dryden go. Of course she was an abomination who just wanted to feed, and would seal the tear in the veil. Having gotten our butts handed to us by Sophia and the Demons while aiding Avernus, I reloaded and aided Sophia. Of course I did it at a fairly low level, so it was pretty tough in there.

But aside from this there has been little to entice one to deal with a demon.

[Foolsfolly]

You know what, I agree with this. We deserve a demon's deal that's really worth something.

So far the best demon deal has been that one where you assemble him and he offers you money to run free. It's a lot of money.

[Camenae]

Oh yeah that one in the Deep Roads in the Origins? Yeah he gives you like 25g or 35g! I took that deal every time.

[Icy Magebane]

Aw... I was going to mention the demon from Asunder. That really is the best deal you can get... 25 sovereigns is nothing to sneeze at... Kitty's demon was a huge disappointment. Not only does she give you nothing if you work for her, you have to solve an annoying puzzle to free her! I didn't reload after that time, but I never did it again, that's for sure...

I can't really say that the demonic bargains are all bad. A free talent is a great reward, and 6 attribute points from Topor? Yes please. I kind of felt bad when I later heard about some kind of insanity caused by the Dreamer in Act 3. That's a vague description, but it was never followed up on... I have no idea if there's more than a simple mention and 2 insane guys to fight.

Anyway... the game can't give deals that are too unbalancing... after all, some of us (myself included) would never pass on an opportunity for more power. Hell, I would never turn down Topor now that I know about his gifts... regardless of the roleplay. :/ Rewards need to be balanced, or the story ends up going out the window, unless the player is particularly concerned about roleplaying. Like I said, a free spell is too tempting. That's the same reason I always let the demon possess Connor in DA:O.

[Foolsfolly]

It's just a little disappointing, I'd like to see a choice with some real weight to it, for example, what if Andraste's ashes wouldn't cure Eamon, so he could actually die. Then you have to choose between Eamon's life and Connor's. Without Eamon you'd have considerably less support at the Landsmeet but you have to weigh that against letting the demon take Connor, and you've already seen what chaos that can cause.

I would never not kill Connor in that case. Who's Connor to me? Eamon gives me support in the Landsmeet and supplies men to the war effort. Connor's a child Abomination.

Kid would die.

Every.

Time.

[Inzhuna]

I wish we had a chance to roleplay that our hero is actually tempted by demon's offer. I mean, in Origins the dream was you in Weisshaupt as a warden... None of my PCs cared for that. If, for example, those dreams were catered to every origin, and, e.g. Cousland got their whole family back or Tabris was back with her family, with the Vaughn thing never happened. That would be much more interesting.

Or for Hawke, getting their sibling back. I did like that you could deceive the demon, though. Telling Anders 'it was a trick you idiot' (paraphrased) afterwards and his reaction were pretty fun.

[sammcl]

It doesn't have to be a better tangible reward to improve the deals. I'd really like to see a demon's deal actually affect the story. What if Torpor's deal could result in him controlling the fade in Kirkwall and strengthening the veil so that far less abominations would be showing up? I feel like that's actually an interesting choice, do you trust that he'll keep his word and not use his Dreamer-Abomination powers in the physical world or do you kill him and keep having abominations pop up all over Kirkwall?

PsychoBlonde has a good point, we need the demons to present themselves differently. If they disguised themselves we might be far less inclined to simply kill them. I want to be manipulated, the way Anders/Justice manipulated us into collecting stuff for him. Up until he asked me to distract the Grand Cleric I believed his lies, at that point it became obvious he was up to no good.

The hunger demon in the deep roads is a bit dumb, either way you have to fight your way past the rock wraith, why wouldn't you kill the demon? O_o

[sammcl]

Foolsfolly wrote...

It's just a little disappointing, I'd like to see a choice with some real weight to it, for example, what if Andraste's ashes wouldn't cure Eamon, so he could actually die. Then you have to choose between Eamon's life and Connor's. Without Eamon you'd have considerably less support at the Landsmeet but you have to weigh that against letting the demon take Connor, and you've already seen what chaos that can cause.

I would never not kill Connor in that case. Who's Connor to me? Eamon gives me support in the Landsmeet and supplies men to the war effort. Connor's a child Abomination.

Kid would die.

Every.

Time.

Perhaps I didn't phrase that as well as I should have. The choice would be between killing the demon and therefore killing Eamon and saving Connor. Or making the deal with the demon to save Eamon but have the demon possess Connor later in his life. Basically choosing between the immediate threat of the blight and the future threat of a Connor abomination after training at the Circle. Connor lives with both choices. Do you trust that the demon will keep it's promise just to save Eamon or do you kill it now and suffer less support at the Landsmeet?

[Foolsfolly]

Inzhuna wrote...

I wish we had a chance to roleplay that our hero is actually tempted by demon's offer. I mean, in Origins the dream was you in Weisshaupt as a warden... None of my PCs cared for that. If, for example, those dreams were catered to every origin, and, e.g. Cousland got their whole family back or Tabris was back with her family, with the Vaughn thing never happened. That would be much more interesting.

Or for Hawke, getting their sibling back. I did like that you could deceive the demon, though. Telling Anders 'it was a trick you idiot' (paraphrased) afterwards and his reaction were pretty fun.

Oh, I wish that had happened. That's perfect.

[mesmerizedish]

sammcl wrote...

Perhaps I didn't phrase that as well as I should have. The choice would be between killing the demon and therefore killing Eamon and saving Connor. Or making the deal with the demon to save Eamon but have the demon possess Connor later in his life. Basically choosing between the immediate threat of the blight and the future threat of a Connor abomination after training at the Circle. Connor lives with both choices. Do you trust that the demon will keep it's promise just to save Eamon or do you kill it now and suffer less support at the Landsmeet?

But killing the demon would mean killing Connor and saving Eamon, not the other way around.

[EDIT] Any way you look at it, I'd kill Connor if I had to. I actually liked Isolde.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 01 avril 2011 - 04:34 .

[The Angry One]

The demon was supposed to be keeping Eamon alive wasn't it?