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[AxelBat]

Okay, so I've played this game through three times now, twice siding with the mages and once against... and I found I felt most satisfied when siding against the mages!

This game FEELS like a game in which I'm supposed to side with the mages, I mean I either side with the mages and help them rebel or I side against them and the mages rebel anyway, plus they hate Hawke afterwards, so the game definitely pushes me in the mage's directions, or at least tries to.

Here is my question though, WHY?!?  Maybe in Fereldon I would feel sorry for the mages, in fact I did, but I find myself hating the mages in Kirkwall.  All they do is whine about how they are oppressed because some mages are bad, and they insist that most mages aren't that way, and then immediately after insisting this they use blood magic and become abominations!  Even Anders, who claims that fighting with force only concretes the hate, blows up the damn chantry!  WHAT THE HELL?  Then Orsino seems decent enough, and you're like "Cool, this dude is fighting it the right way, he knows what's up."  Then BAM!  Giant fat abomination thing. FFFFFFFFfff

I don't understand the motivation.  I WANT to feel compelled to help the mages... but I just can't.  They prove that they are betrayers and maleficar at every corner you turn.

The templars are actually pretty cool.  Besides general enemies, the only 'bad' templars in the game are Meredith and the one that you have to do the side quest for Anders to meet.  Other then that the templars seem to be general soldiers doing their jobs, and at least two major templar characters sympathize with the mages.  Plus Cullin, Cullin saves the whole thing.

What do you guys think?  Why save them?  Why help them?  Do you think it's worth it to risk another Tevinter Imperium?  If there are redeeming qualities... what are they?  Because I just don't see them.

Sorry if this has been discussed, I did go a few pages back and didn't see anything.

[Rifneno]

The templars are actually pretty cool. Besides general enemies, the only 'bad' templars in the game are Meredith and the one that you have to do the side quest for Anders to meet. Other then that the templars seem to be general soldiers doing their jobs, and at least two major templar characters sympathize with the mages. Plus Cullin, Cullin saves the whole thing.

Like Karras, whom you're forced to meet in Act 1, who doesn't take surrender as an option from mages he has no proof of wrongdoing from?  Of course, Alrik, who wants to steal the souls of every mage in the country and not-so-subtly implies he intends to rape the Tranquilled women?  I believe Alain has some easily missed dialogue where you find out the templars raped him, too.  Boy these "good guys" sure do love their rape!

Thrask and Keran are really the only templars I'd bother sparing given the choice.  And that includes Cullen.  I suspect people who thought he was a good one never took Alrik's Tranquil Solution papers back and asked his opinion on them.  Or, when taking the templar ending, asked "wait, why does Cullen want to arrest me?"

[AxelBat]

Rifneno wrote...
Like Karras, whom you're forced to meet in Act 1, who doesn't take surrender as an option from mages he has no proof of wrongdoing from?  Of course, Alrik, who wants to steal the souls of every mage in the country and not-so-subtly implies he intends to rape the Tranquilled women?  I believe Alain has some easily missed dialogue where you find out the templars raped him, too.  Boy these "good guys" sure do love their rape!

Thrask and Keran are really the only templars I'd bother sparing given the choice.  And that includes Cullen.  I suspect people who thought he was a good one never took Alrik's Tranquil Solution papers back and asked his opinion on them.  Or, when taking the templar ending, asked "wait, why does Cullen want to arrest me?"

I admit, I forgot about Karras, and I was talking about Alrik above, I just forgot his name.  I must have also missed the dialog with Alain because I don't remember him saying that.  I DO remember Anders talking about being raped in the Circle (I can't remember if it's in this one he mentions it, or in Awakening), and like I said I DO feel bad for the Fereldon mages, heck I even felt bad for the mages in Kirkwall, it's just all the blood magic and betrayal being flung around that settled a bad taste into my mouth for the mages.

Samsong was also pretty cool, even if he did become someone who sucked the money from escaping mages, at least he had a heart.  Cullen seemed pretty cool to me, but then I didn't know you COULD take the papers to him, nor did I ask about being arrested (or I don't remember)

I guess I implied above that I think the templars are the good guys, and that's not what I think at all, I just saw more reasons to like the templars and side against the mages then I saw the other way around, that's all.

[Raiil]

Anders doesn't talk about being raped personally, he mentions that it happens (quite a bit is the inference, since he states he was lucky, making it sound like it's not too out of character to happen).

There's no right or wrong here, in terms of one is right, one is wrong. There's a handful of extremists that push everyone to the edge.

[Darth Krytie]

I save the mages (except for my Templar achievement playthrough) because I honestly believe that most mages would not turn to blood magic and other desperate tactics if they were free...or if not free, at least not abused. Mages are threatened with the equivalent of a double lobotomy if they exercise any sort of independence. They're cut off from not only their family, but from society as a whole. They're the frequent victims of rape and abuse.

I know that not all Templars are bad, but the system is bad. The system is fraught with ways for it to be abused. There's no sound oversight to allow the Templars to be held accountable for their behaviour.

Like the First Enchanter says (paraphrased), why not drown them as infants if they really have no hope for a real life? Why give them the illusion that it's possible.

However, now that I've got all the achievements, I tend to choose who to side with on a quest by quest basis.

[AxelBat]

Valentia X wrote...

Anders doesn't talk about being raped personally, he mentions that it happens (quite a bit is the inference, since he states he was lucky, making it sound like it's not too out of character to happen).

There's no right or wrong here, in terms of one is right, one is wrong. There's a handful of extremists that push everyone to the edge.

Alright, I remember him saying all that now

I guess I would feel less like this if the ending didn't happen no matter what I did.  If I truely had to choose between re-opressing the mages and helping free the mages, with a hand-in-hand ending, then maybe I wouldn't feel like I'm SUPPOSED to side with the mages.

I'm sure Bioware was just trying to show us how pushed over the edge the mages feel, but I guess I don't see the point of abominations happening left and right.  Also, the biggest betrayel for me with the mages was Orsino, he was the one level head in all the chaos, the biggest reason I saw to believe that mages can actually be calm and collective when faced with dire circumstances, and he ends up betraying you anyway. 

Like I said, I WANT to like the mages, I want to see reasons, that's why I made this thread, maybe I'm just missing something.

[AxelBat]

Darth Krytie wrote...

I save the mages (except for my Templar achievement playthrough) because I honestly believe that most mages would not turn to blood magic and other desperate tactics if they were free...or if not free, at least not abused. Mages are threatened with the equivalent of a double lobotomy if they exercise any sort of independence. They're cut off from not only their family, but from society as a whole. They're the frequent victims of rape and abuse.

I know that not all Templars are bad, but the system is bad. The system is fraught with ways for it to be abused. There's no sound oversight to allow the Templars to be held accountable for their behaviour.

Like the First Enchanter says (paraphrased), why not drown them as infants if they really have no hope for a real life? Why give them the illusion that it's possible.

However, now that I've got all the achievements, I tend to choose who to side with on a quest by quest basis.

I see what you're saying, I'll have to think on it.

[Sinophile]

I also sided with the mages on my first playthrough, and was a bit confused when they all accused me of working for Meredith. Do I have to side with either the Templars or Mages in every playthrough, or is there some sort of "middle ground?"

[Reidbynature]

Valentia X wrote...

Anders doesn't talk about being raped personally, he mentions that it happens (quite a bit is the inference, since he states he was lucky, making it sound like it's not too out of character to happen).

There's no right or wrong here, in terms of one is right, one is wrong. There's a handful of extremists that push everyone to the edge.

For me I just think it didn't feel right at all.  I understand the concept of trying to make it so it's not so much a choice of right and wrong, but I don't think the only alternative should essentially be that every option is a bad one, so pick something.

I think the concept worked out a bit better in Origins with the selection of a dwarf king because it was more mixed, but it was still a case of either one will probably leave you dissapointed.  Plus I think it really hurts the game since it's the final act and the main issue (apparently) to the game and it robs any feeling of reward for many players.

[Raiil]

Sinophile wrote...

I also sided with the mages on my first playthrough, and was a bit confused when they all accused me of working for Meredith. Do I have to side with either the Templars or Mages in every playthrough, or is there some sort of "middle ground?"

No, there isn't a middle ground unfortunately. Which, as much as I love this game, grates on me sometimes, because having the option to marshall the guard and recruit any and all mages and templars who are willing to defend the innocent and one another should have been an option. That would have pissed off Orsino and Meredith enough to invoke their latent Sith mode, IMO, and make it more likely that you could become Viscount. I mean, you chose to defend the citizenry, that should make people want to crown you.

[Knight Templar_]

The call to kill them was wrongly placed. It is done when there is no other option and a circle is beyond redemption. But the circle wasn't even involved in the cause to attack them. They turned to whatever and everything they could in order to survive, to use that desperation to justify attacking them in the first place strikes me as circular logic.

[Raiil]

Knight Templar wrote...

The call to kill them was wrongly placed. It is done when there is no other option and a circle is beyond redemption. But the circle wasn't even involved in the cause to attack them. They turned to whatever and everything they could in order to survive, to use that desperation to justify attacking them in the first place strikes me as circular logic.

The whole situation is devoid of logic- and I think that's the point. People pushed to the brink- by the threat of death, by bizarre lyrium idols, etc- usually aren't dwelling on rationality. They're looking for survival, whether of themselves or their belief systems or things they love. The mages want to save their lives, Meredith wants to save the way things are (Chantry control of mages, etc), Anders want to save freedom. What Hawke wants to save- themselves, Kirkwall, a love interest, etc- is the only motivation you have control over.

[Romudeth]

I have 2 playthroughs where I save the mages and 1 where I don't.

For my first playthrough I sided with the mages because it seemed like the right thing to do even though they all kept turning to abominations and proving why they should be locked away. When Orsino betrayed me and became an abomination I got really angry at the mages.

On my next playthrough I sided with the Templars but working for that b*tch Meredith didn't feel right and at the end she betrays me too!

I was a mage on my 3rd playthrough so I had no choice but to side with the mages. I know I could have technically sided with the Templars but it wouldn't really make any sense story wise.

So what's the lesson here? Both Templars and Mages suck! I hope in one of the upcoming dlcs I get to pick my own side and kill them both for being back stabbers.

[Kartikeya]

I'm not sure why people are so confused over Orsino's freakout. The man hit total despair. He even gives a speech about it. It doesn't matter if it was rational or not, he's just seen the only family he has massacred in front of his eyes for a crime he knows and THE TEMPLARS KNOW they weren't remotely responsible for. Forgive me for using the dog anology again, but.

If you have a dog, even the most mellow, even tempered pooch, and you start kicking this dog, and kicking it, and kicking it, at some point, maybe sooner, maybe later, the dog is going to try to take your leg off.

Does that mean the dog was violent all along?

[Darth Krytie]

Kartikeya wrote...

I'm not sure why people are so confused over Orsino's freakout. The man hit total despair. He even gives a speech about it. It doesn't matter if it was rational or not, he's just seen the only family he has massacred in front of his eyes for a crime he knows and THE TEMPLARS KNOW they weren't remotely responsible for. Forgive me for using the dog anology again, but.

If you have a dog, even the most mellow, even tempered pooch, and you start kicking this dog, and kicking it, and kicking it, at some point, maybe sooner, maybe later, the dog is going to try to take your leg off.

Does that mean the dog was violent all along?

Exactly. Orsino's reaction made so much sense to me. (Much more than Anders blowing up the effing chantry -- although, I understood that, too.)

He was going to die anyhow! Why not make a last stand? Should he have died on his knees for something everyone knew he was not involved in?

[Kartikeya]

Anders blowing up the Chantry, while horrifying, is still understandable to me. I could write an essay on what seems to have been going on with Anders, but that'd be quite a derail.

[Reidbynature]

Kartikeya wrote...

I'm not sure why people are so confused over Orsino's freakout. The man hit total despair. He even gives a speech about it. It doesn't matter if it was rational or not, he's just seen the only family he has massacred in front of his eyes for a crime he knows and THE TEMPLARS KNOW they weren't remotely responsible for.

Some of us felt it was fairly sudden, that his speech was a bit weak and it felt more like an excuse to [insert random boss fight here].  Not to mention it was just after winning a big battle against a horde of Templars.  It might have made more sense if the custsene involved another horde turning up and making it seem as though everything was lost.

Though apparently Orsino may have been a blood mage all along regardless of Templar abuses.  According to others he pretty much admits conspiring with the mage who killed Hawke's mother (I assume this only comes out in the Templar playthrough though).

Modifié par Reidbynature, 01 avril 2011 - 06:59 .

[Greed1914]

I'll give Bioware credit. They made a situation where I really wanted to just bow out and let the two sides slug it out. I couldn't side with the Templars because it seemed like Meredith was intent on squeezing until the whole circle resorted to blood magic. But I also didn't want to side with the mages because the apostates we encounter tended to be the very thing the Templars were supposed to protect against.

I suppose I chose the Circle only because Meredith went overboard with the Annulment decree. I get that it was meant to appease the general population, and the idol didn't help, but when the offending mage was willing to accept his punishment, it seemed foolish to kill all mages.

[Kartikeya]

Reidbynature wrote...

Kartikeya wrote...

I'm not sure why people are so confused over Orsino's freakout. The man hit total despair. He even gives a speech about it. It doesn't matter if it was rational or not, he's just seen the only family he has massacred in front of his eyes for a crime he knows and THE TEMPLARS KNOW they weren't remotely responsible for.

Some of us felt it was fairly sudden, that his speech was a bit weak and it felt more like an excuse to [insert random boss fight here].  Not to mention it was just after winning a big battle against a horde of Templars.  It might have made more sense if the custsene involved another horde turning up and making it seem as though everything was lost.

Though apparently Orsino may have been a blood mage all along regardless of Templar abuses.  According to others he pretty much admits conspiring with the mage who killed Hawke's mother (I assume this only comes out in the Templar playthrough though).

If I'm remembering the scene right, there IS another wave of Templars there when he goes all boogey-body. They all turn and wisely run the hell away. Of course, for gameplay reasons, this was to provide for a second boss fight, but I thought the lead-up to it was all there. Heck, watch the end of Act 2 again when Orsino realizes the mages he brought with him to fight the Qunari are all dead. Listen to what he says right after you've spoken to all your companions for the last time. In fact, listen to how he talks when he tells the mages to flee. Sure, he says maybe possibly Hawke can provide a chance...and then two seconds later templars burst in and slaughter every single mage that's not in your party, right in front of him. His snap decision is sudden, yeah, but it was a long time coming.

As far as Orsino being a douche. Yes, he is. But again, just how much he knew about Quentin is kind've left to the imagination. He knew about his research. Did he know exactly what he was doing? Heck, even if he was some shadowy figure that fled when you confronted Quentin, and had therefore been actively participating all along, how does this justify all the other mages dying? For that matter, this is information you don't find out until he flips, which is after you're forced to choose between the two sides. Hawke has no way to know.  Even if my Hawke knew beforehand, I can't see her agreeing to the Rite of Annulment. The Rite of Smearing Orsino's Innards All Over the Gallows? Sure. But the other Circle mages are no more responsible for Orsino's decision than Orsino is for Anders blowing the Chantry.

[McHoger]

I take it as, mages are kind of the victims here, but the Circle is a necessary evil. I would have then sided with the Templars, but the Right of Annulment was crossing a line. So in the end, I sided with the mages.

As for Orsino, I just took it as knowing that every mage not in that room was dead and there wasn't any real victory to be had that pushed him over the edge.

[Reidbynature]

Well I may be mistaken about the Templars, I haven't exactly rushed back to play it over. But I remember listening to him the first time round. His words just didn't convince me. I remember feeling right there and then that it was a bit much for him to turn into an abomination as well after me having to slog through both the Templars and blood mages/abominations (oh, and Fenris, but I wasn't too fussed about killing him by then lol).

It may have been a long time coming, but I don't think the game did a good job of relating that. It would have been better if the player had contact with him (and Meredith) throughout the whole game and not mainly in Chapter 3. Plus it would have better served the main story.

[Darth Krytie]

Reidbynature wrote...

Well I may be mistaken about the Templars, I haven't exactly rushed back to play it over. But I remember listening to him the first time round. His words just didn't convince me. I remember feeling right there and then that it was a bit much for him to turn into an abomination as well after me having to slog through both the Templars and blood mages/abominations (oh, and Fenris, but I wasn't too fussed about killing him by then lol).

It may have been a long time coming, but I don't think the game did a good job of relating that. It would have been better if the player had contact with him (and Meredith) throughout the whole game and not mainly in Chapter 3. Plus it would have better served the main story.

The only problem is that it really doesn't make sense for Hawke to know those two when he's just a loser refuge. And you meet them when you're important in act two, which also makes sense. I think, maybe, if Act III were longer? It wouldn't feel so lacking...however, if Act III were longer, it'd lose the imemdiacy of the crisis. After all, it's all on the brink and making it over long would make it feel a lot less urgent.

[Knightly_BW]

I am siding with Templars since my second play through. Tho' it can change according to my character but by siding with templars:

1- I can save at least 3 innocent mages
2- Don't feel dirty for siding with my mother's killer
3- Mostly fighting side by side with my brother (if Carver is a templar)

[Reidbynature]

Being a nobody isn't really an excuse. There could be dozens of ways they could have contact earlier. Varric knows people, maybe people in the Circle are some of his contacts and after working for them Orsino gets in contact for some random mission. It doesn't need to be all important, just an introduction. My main point is that there should have been more contact with Orsino (and again Meredith) so that players could get a better look behind his mask as it were (and to further push the main threat of the game).

And as far as the immediacy of Act 3. I couldn't help that it could have had a better build up altogether. "Hmm, a burning city where I'm funnelled down a path. I think I've played this game before. Oh, yes. That was Act 2."

[Kartikeya]

How did I put this before? Okay, imagine that you've grown up in an enclosed place with a group of people (Orsino came to the Circle very young). Those people are the only family you have ever known. Mages are discouraged from any kind of romantic entanglements, and certainly from marriage, and any children they have are taken away immediately after birth. So those people are the only family you will EVER have.

Imagine that the place you live in is little more than a prison, and, as the years go by, starts to make prison look a little flowery by comparison. The people who are supposed to be protecting and watching out for you treat you like you're less than human, abuse your family right and left (and probably you too), kill or lobotomize your family for the slightest infractions, and can get away with literally just about anything and no one outside your family cares about it, and your family is powerless to make it stop. You're taught that, simply by an accident of birth, you're an offense to the Maker. You're treated like a freak.

You live in a place where the Veil is incredibly thin. This means that the temptations that are normally hard to resist for your kind are much much much worse for you and your family. You can't escape it. You can't go somewhere somewhat less tormenting, because the Powers That Be have decreed you have to live in this place. By the way, this place is where they used to execute and torture slaves by the hour, and is still lovingly decorated by statues depicting it. If you try to escape, you'll be hunted down and killed.

Somehow, you survive, you grow up, you become the leader of your family. Now everything is worse. You're the 'leader', but you still have no voice. You're responsible for their safety, but the most you can do is occasionally try a desperate appeal to the Grand Cleric, but you only dare do this when things have become unbearable, because a mage that makes too much trouble ends up dead or worse. Meanwhile, that person in charge of the people who are supposed to protect you, your jailors and abusers, keeps making things worse and worse. It gets bad enough that some of your jailors start helping some of your family escape. It gets bad enough that people who normally turn a blind eye to the mage and templar problem are actively harboring apostates and helping them get away. It gets bad enough that a man sent to Kirkwall specifically because he was too abusive and extreme for the Ferelden Circle stops and goes 'uh, hey, this is getting a little out of hand...'

Then the worst happens. Meredith wants to Yet Again push the limits of what she's allowed to do to you and your family. And yet again, despite now being under house arrest, you risk yourself to go to the Chantry to beg the Grand Cleric to make Meredith stop. But some crazy apostate blows up the Chantry. He destroys your one hope of stopping this insanity, because now Meredith is the only one in Kirkwall calling the shots on what happens to you and your family.

...And then Meredith, who is standing right there and knows full well that none of you are responsible for what just happened, declares that she's now going to kill you and every single person in your family. Everyone you have ever known or cared about, children included. Everyone you are responsible for protecting. You beg her not to. You say you'll do anything. You even offer to help her carry out what she wanted to do before, if only she won't murder all of you. She won't listen. She tells you to go prepare your family for the slaughter. Everyone is going to die for something they didn't do, and no one is going to care.

Ah, but one small group of people cares. They're willing to stand with you. It's not nearly enough to fight off the massive numbers of Templars you know Meredith is bringing. Which means that this one small group of people, decent people you barely know, one of whom you know you've wronged because you kept silent on a matter that might have saved their parent, are all going to die too. For trying to help you.

So you send off your family, as many as you can. You tell them to run for their lives and try to survive, because that's all they can hope for now. You have no idea if any of them will. Probably not. Either way, you know you won't ever see them again. Those that stay with you? Get slaughtered in the very first wave. The Templars cut them down without hesitation or remorse, right in front of your eyes. Your new friends hold the line, but you know it can't last. More are coming, and you and everyone are going to die for no reason at all. No one will know what happened. No one will care what happened. You'll be instantly forgotten, because anyone who would have cared to remember will be dead along with you.

What was the point of it all? you wonder. Why would they ever let you live long enough to realize what a hopeless, hopeless, senseless life you were going to have? Why would they let you dream up false hopes that it would ever get better? Was this just a means to make it crueler? And why should you go quietly? What's the point of resisting temptations of power when you're going to be murdered regardless? Why not take a few of them with you when you go? They've made you live in terror your entire life, why not spend your last, pointless moments giving those bastards a reason to fear you? There is literally no reason to keep resisting.