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[Knightly_BW]

Reidbynature wrote...

Being a nobody isn't really an excuse. There could be dozens of ways they could have contact earlier. Varric knows people, maybe people in the Circle are some of his contacts and after working for them Orsino gets in contact for some random mission. It doesn't need to be all important, just an introduction. My main point is that there should have been more contact with Orsino (and again Meredith) so that players could get a better look behind his mask as it were (and to further push the main threat of the game).

And as far as the immediacy of Act 3. I couldn't help that it could have had a better build up altogether. "Hmm, a burning city where I'm funnelled down a path. I think I've played this game before. Oh, yes. That was Act 2."

Pfft. You are running up in Act 2 and down in Act 3. You can never please people with huge differences.

[Reidbynature]

Asperius wrote...

Pfft. You are running up in Act 2 and down in Act 3. You can never please people with huge differences.

I lol'd hard.


EDIT:  @Kartikeya.  I'll be honest.  I've only skimmed your post.  It's a bit long right now and I really can't be bothered with all that right now.  From what I've seen it's largely a verbose way of saying 'mages have it bad, he snapped'.  I'll get back to you if I read all of it and find differently.

Modifié par Reidbynature, 01 avril 2011 - 08:21 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Kartikeya wrote...

I'm not sure why people are so confused over Orsino's freakout. The man hit total despair. He even gives a speech about it. It doesn't matter if it was rational or not, he's just seen the only family he has massacred in front of his eyes for a crime he knows and THE TEMPLARS KNOW they weren't remotely responsible for. Forgive me for using the dog anology again, but.

If you have a dog, even the most mellow, even tempered pooch, and you start kicking this dog, and kicking it, and kicking it, at some point, maybe sooner, maybe later, the dog is going to try to take your leg off.

Does that mean the dog was violent all along?

After examining Orsino's actions more closely, I came to the conclusion that Orsino is just a weak man in general. He's a weak leader, and that weakness is what allowed Meredith to walk all over him. From the beginning, he was always on the defensive, and that's what ended up tripping him up.

Orsino got caught up in "do whatever it takes to keep the templars from killing us" when what he should have been doing was "do whatever it takes to find the ones responsible so the templars have no reason to kill us". Sure, there are unreasonable parties on both sides (Karras, Alrik, Grace, Quentin, etc.), but as a leader, it's his job to help root out the bad eggs. It's his job to maintain the integrity of the circle, find the maleficar hiding within, and deal with them. He shouldn't have to depend on the Templars to do that, he should be leading the search himself.

Look at the way Orsino handled the Quentin incident. Orsino *knew* what Quentin was doing. He knew that Quentin was killing innocents and experimenting on them for crazy reasons. But what did Orsino do about it? A proper, strong leader would have had Quentin arrested, tried and sentenced. Somebody with the best interests of the mages at heart would have stopped Quentin. An ambitious and ruthless one would have allowed it to continue just for the research opportunities. But Orsino didn't do either... he found the research interesting but taboo to actually use it until he crossed the despair event horizon. What Orsino was, however, was too afraid of how bad it would make mages look in general, so he hid the evidence and didn't do anything. He was so concerned with appearances that he ignored the underlying causes. He was too busy trying to cover up the symptom that he missed the illness.

Orsino's not without redeeming qualities, but when it comes down to it, he's a weakling. He's too afraid of how things might look, and that hamstrings him as an effective leader. Irving, from the Ferelden circle, was much stronger-willed than Orsino, and it showed in how the knight-commander of the ferelden circle respected him. Meredith held no respect for Orsino, because Orsino didn't deserve any, Meredith *does* respect the Champion, even if Hawke doesn't necessarily agree with her, because Hawke at least sticks to his/her convictions.

[Kartikeya]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Kartikeya wrote...

I'm not sure why people are so confused over Orsino's freakout. The man hit total despair. He even gives a speech about it. It doesn't matter if it was rational or not, he's just seen the only family he has massacred in front of his eyes for a crime he knows and THE TEMPLARS KNOW they weren't remotely responsible for. Forgive me for using the dog anology again, but.

If you have a dog, even the most mellow, even tempered pooch, and you start kicking this dog, and kicking it, and kicking it, at some point, maybe sooner, maybe later, the dog is going to try to take your leg off.

Does that mean the dog was violent all along?

After examining Orsino's actions more closely, I came to the conclusion that Orsino is just a weak man in general. He's a weak leader, and that weakness is what allowed Meredith to walk all over him. From the beginning, he was always on the defensive, and that's what ended up tripping him up.

Orsino got caught up in "do whatever it takes to keep the templars from killing us" when what he should have been doing was "do whatever it takes to find the ones responsible so the templars have no reason to kill us". Sure, there are unreasonable parties on both sides (Karras, Alrik, Grace, Quentin, etc.), but as a leader, it's his job to help root out the bad eggs. It's his job to maintain the integrity of the circle, find the maleficar hiding within, and deal with them. He shouldn't have to depend on the Templars to do that, he should be leading the search himself.

Look at the way Orsino handled the Quentin incident. Orsino *knew* what Quentin was doing. He knew that Quentin was killing innocents and experimenting on them for crazy reasons. But what did Orsino do about it? A proper, strong leader would have had Quentin arrested, tried and sentenced. Somebody with the best interests of the mages at heart would have stopped Quentin. An ambitious and ruthless one would have allowed it to continue just for the research opportunities. But Orsino didn't do either... he found the research interesting but taboo to actually use it until he crossed the despair event horizon. What Orsino was, however, was too afraid of how bad it would make mages look in general, so he hid the evidence and didn't do anything. He was so concerned with appearances that he ignored the underlying causes. He was too busy trying to cover up the symptom that he missed the illness.

Orsino's not without redeeming qualities, but when it comes down to it, he's a weakling. He's too afraid of how things might look, and that hamstrings him as an effective leader. Irving, from the Ferelden circle, was much stronger-willed than Orsino, and it showed in how the knight-commander of the ferelden circle respected him. Meredith held no respect for Orsino, because Orsino didn't deserve any, Meredith *does* respect the Champion, even if Hawke doesn't necessarily agree with her, because Hawke at least sticks to his/her convictions.

While I agree with pretty much everything you've written here, I'd contest that Irving would have had much better luck in the end. The power dynamics between First Enchanter and Knight Commander are so incredibly weighted in favor of the Templars that if you have a Knight Commander who is going to treat you like captive enemies just waiting to explode, especially one wielding so much political clout, there is really and truly very little that can actually be done. Irving and Gregoire clearly have disagreements, but they both respect each other. Meredith respects mage!Hawke only insofar as mage!Hawke is a town hero and it would be rather annoying to try and take her in, and maybe, possibly, mage!Hawke can be useful (and she didn't seem as though she was terribly willing to let that usefulness deter her for very long) in helping to bring her fellow mages into line. The moment you act uncooperative, Meredith threatens you.

Irving was a far more canny and politically savvy First Enchanter. He knew how to walk the line between the extremes of both groups. But when the Templars start going 'no, shut up, this is what we're doing' any power the First Enchanter has as a position kind've dries right up. Irving would have definitely done what you've suggested up there, and it's definitely what Orsino should have done...but you know, when he says Meredith would have used Quentin to punish the Circle? I kind've believe him. She certainly leaps at using another Apostate doing terrible things to wipe the Circle right out. Would she have done that years earlier? Probably not the Rite of Annulment, but things might well have got ugly.

@Reid, yes, that's pretty much what it is. It boils down to 'Orsino had an unbelievably crappy life, was in an unbelievably crappy position, was rendered pretty much powerless to protect the people he was supposed to be protecting, who were, in essence, his only family, and this led straight to the Despair Event Horizon'. I say imagine yourself in that position because it is an incredibly hopeless, depressing situation to be in. It's hard to imagine, really.

Not that I think Orsino in any way made the RIGHT choice, whether in regards to Quentin or his crazyface blood magic fit, but boy if I can't see how he got there. You just don't think rationally when you're that far gone on the despair olympics express.

[nekhbet]

The more you push and oppress people, the more desperate and destructive their actions will become. If there's no hope in sight, they will resort to terrorism and violence, because they have nothing left to lose.

I think the mage situation is pretty similar to, say, many parts of Middle-East. Poverty, few liberties, oppression... no hope. Take away those things, give them freedom, jobs and control over their own lives and you solve most of the terrorism and violence. Most people just want to be left alone to live their lives and don't want to die for causes or anything.

I'd guess the mages of Thedas aren't that different from us real-life humans in the end. And people respond better to carrot than to stick.

So yeah, despite a few mages losing it (and *cough* resorting to terrorism) I'll have to side with their cause. Can't make an omelette without cracking a few eggs. The templars are treating a symptom, but not the illness. It's shown in DA2 that the nonmages of Thedas are just as fallible as mages, so there's little reason to segregate one group of people as "more dangerous" than others. For their demon possession problem everyone should be taught willpower to resist, perhaps mages more than nonmages. But surely it can be done without locking people in towers.

[SIx_Foot_Imp]

I really wanted to help the mages throughout the game but the game went to incredible lengths to convince me that the good mages i met in Fereldan were some weird minority, and every mage is unstable and ready to kill dozens of people at a moments notice. I thought the analogy was suppose to be groups of oppressed people where some of the people turn to terrorism to free themselves but aside from Bethany every single mage ends up killing or almost killing many people. The only reason that the chantry doesn't put the out of their misery and give them painless deaths on discovery is that they need the power of the mages to keep tevinter and the qunari at bay. While the mages get the short straw at birth by the end the almost always put enough people in danger to warrant their deaths. The chantry like to play hot potatoes with unstable bombs st the expense of torturing people and things often blow in their faces. The entire game i never met a single character in either faction who was likeable, even the friendly nice ones were always fascists or psychopaths in the end. Ultimately though the choices you make don't matter because the ending is always the same massive death and destruction.

[nekhbet]

Bethany was raised outside of the Circle, btw. Coincidence that she isn't a loonie or not?

[Zan Mura]

AxelBat wrote...

What do you guys think?  Why save them?  Why help them?  Do you think it's worth it to risk another Tevinter Imperium?  If there are redeeming qualities... what are they?  Because I just don't see them.

The whole "another Tevinte imperium" angle is kinda moot. It's easy to make such predictions in hindsight when we know how the game ends, and how the conflict spreads. Realistically the situation is far less extreme than it was in DAO, and there people seemed to have no problems exploring the Circle tower *without* sacrificing the mages.

Pretty much the only one who's worried about another Tevinter is Fenris, and his opinion or knowledge both are hardly anywhere near unbiased or reliable. He's one guy, ex-slave, who's bordering on extreme paranoia and hatred when it comes to mages. For good reason, considering his past, but good reasons don't make this one man's views any more convincing.

In the end it's really simple. The Kirkwall Circle isn't even under attack by blood mages and demon possessions, unlike the Ferelden Circle was. We already know the background story conflicts and have good reason to suspect that Meredith's elevator isn't exactly reaching the top floor anymore, if you catch my drift. Then it was Anders, a single apostate abomination who blew up the Chantry. For that, Meredith is willing to slaughter *all* mages in Kirkwall? Most of whom are NOT under possession, and pretty much none of which had anything to do with the terrorist attack.

Simply put, even when I agree with the insane number of hypocrite blood mages, and I agree that some manner of control is clearly necessary because of the risks involved in magic... someone who just up and declares hundreds of people to be executed because of the actions of a few, they're just wrong. Plain and simple.

[Bayz]

Because your sister is a mage herself, as it was your father before you, and because the Tevinter Imperium is just a land filled with rubbish and you know that wouldn't happen to the good people of Kirkwall?

You can take any answers as you want for your choices, just go realistically. Doing something "for the great justice" hardly ends well ever (look at Anders's actions)

[SIx_Foot_Imp]

I forgot to add that even if the mages werent oppressed they would end up killing people randaomly (at least acording to what characters and events show you), every mage that says they are different is secretly an abomination or a blood mage in the game.

I would have loved the option for compromise to try to make things better in the circle by appealing to the people and the templars, we find both templars and ordinary people trying to help mages, but then all the supporters of reform end up supporting the terrorists, it just feels like they want you to have a war and are forcing you to make a cruddy choice between two equaly bad sides because that is what drama is about. in reality I would have just tried to keep the peace and negotiate peacefully an then when both sides went crazy i would have killed them all or allowed them to kill each other. Helping bad people for good reasons doesn't just makes you one of the bad people if two groups are hell bent on wiping each other out and will never compromise the last thing you should do is help them achieve that.

[Kartikeya]

SIx_Foot_Imp wrote...

I forgot to add that even if the mages werent oppressed they would end up killing people randaomly (at least acording to what characters and events show you), every mage that says they are different is secretly an abomination or a blood mage in the game.

My rebuttal: mage!Hawke. Hawke's father. Bethany. Arguably Alain, whose only use of blood magic is to free your sibling/party member that we know of. That dumb, duuuumb mage who just wanted to get laid. Feynriel, if you save him. Marethari becomes an abomination only to save Merrill. Karl. That girl you save from Ulric. Probably all of those mages that get massacred when the Templars break into the tower when you're supporting the mages. Presumably most of the ones Orsino tells to run, because there's no endgame dialogue talking about how 'many of them survived, and fled to other Circles, and then went SURPRISEABOMINATION LAWL'. Etc.

Yes, there are an overwhelming number of crazyface mages in this game, and I would agree with the criticism that it's probably way too over the top for the story. I agree that some sort of policing, something, is needed.

Genocide? No. Never. These are people. Even if you want to argue all of the above are exceptions to the rule, why should the exceptions die? I haven't seen what I would consider a convincing argument yet (for the player, anyway, the character can of course think whatever they like).

[sphinxess]

There is a lot of evidence some pretty horrible things were done to the mages in the tower by templars - now if a senior mage said to me "I can teach you to use blood magic for when a templar decides to come for you - you won't survive but maybe the templar won't either" many would jump at the chance...

[nekhbet]

sphinxess wrote...

There is a lot of evidence some pretty horrible things were done to the mages in the tower by templars - now if a senior mage said to me "I can teach you to use blood magic for when a templar decides to come for you - you won't survive but maybe the templar won't either" many would jump at the chance...

That's exactly how you recruit suicide bombers, yes.

[Bayz]

Also with the demon possesions and invocations, blood mage stuff and that mages keep things interesting.

[Mahtisonni]

SIx_Foot_Imp wrote...

I forgot to add that even if the mages werent oppressed they would end up killing people randaomly (at least acording to what characters and events show you), every mage that says they are different is secretly an abomination or a blood mage in the game.

Oh dear, no more so than those thousands of bandits that swarm the streets at night and sometimes daytime?

On Dragon age: Origins most of the mages outside the circle were actually rather friendly with few insane exceptions.
Jowain? He was a bro
That old man in the woods? Oh man was he funny, and mostly harmless if you ignore the occasional acorn theft.
Morrigan? She lives in the wilds and doesn't really hurt anybody unless you come after her, much like any animal.
Flemeth? Not necessarily even a mage, but she certainly seems like fun company.
Aneirin? He become a good man and a healer for the dalish after leaving the circle
Zathrian? Not a homicidal maniac but he was rather cruel, he could be "persuaded" to make ammends. So not insane murderer.
The Warden? Well that's entirely up to you whether you want to make a murder knife character or not.

Only mage that i can recall that was on a mad murder spree was Uldred who was raised in the circle.
So, I'd like you to name me a mage that was raised outside chantry, got proper mage training and went on a mad killing spree and no, Hawke doesn't count.

Also the entire conflict is 100% fault of the Chantry.
Chantry preaches how mages are dangerous, but regardless of being able to take steps to make the people safe they refuse to take them.
If the chantry allowed anybody to train in templar abilities, then don't you think that the world would become considerably safer for non-mages?
"These men and women can become unstoppable killers any time of the day! They must be kept in the tower. In order to keep you safe."
"If they're so unstoppable how can you keep them in a tower?"
"Well, we have these guys who we have trained to use anti-magic abilities."
"Wouldn't it be easier to just let everybody learn these abilities? I mean they're hardly unstoppable if regular guardsmen in the town can turn them into a stain on the floor right?"
"HERETIC! MAIM! KILL! BURN! HE SACRIFICES BABIES ON THE MOONLIGHT!

Modifié par Mahtisonni, 01 avril 2011 - 10:46 .

[Darth Krytie]

SIx_Foot_Imp wrote...

I forgot to add that even if the mages werent oppressed they would end up killing people randaomly (at least acording to what characters and events show you), every mage that says they are different is secretly an abomination or a blood mage in the game.

How could the characters and the events show you how mages would theoretically act if they're not opressed? No where in the game are they not oppressed. The ones who flee the oppression (apostates) are in danger because they get no formal training. If the oppression wasn't there, the mages would have no reason to fear the one place that could teach them to deal with the Fade.

[Adanu]

Kartikeya wrote...

How did I put this before? Okay, imagine that you've grown up in an enclosed place with a group of people (Orsino came to the Circle very young). Those people are the only family you have ever known. Mages are discouraged from any kind of romantic entanglements, and certainly from marriage, and any children they have are taken away immediately after birth. So those people are the only family you will EVER have.

Imagine that the place you live in is little more than a prison, and, as the years go by, starts to make prison look a little flowery by comparison. The people who are supposed to be protecting and watching out for you treat you like you're less than human, abuse your family right and left (and probably you too), kill or lobotomize your family for the slightest infractions, and can get away with literally just about anything and no one outside your family cares about it, and your family is powerless to make it stop. You're taught that, simply by an accident of birth, you're an offense to the Maker. You're treated like a freak.

You live in a place where the Veil is incredibly thin. This means that the temptations that are normally hard to resist for your kind are much much much worse for you and your family. You can't escape it. You can't go somewhere somewhat less tormenting, because the Powers That Be have decreed you have to live in this place. By the way, this place is where they used to execute and torture slaves by the hour, and is still lovingly decorated by statues depicting it. If you try to escape, you'll be hunted down and killed.

Somehow, you survive, you grow up, you become the leader of your family. Now everything is worse. You're the 'leader', but you still have no voice. You're responsible for their safety, but the most you can do is occasionally try a desperate appeal to the Grand Cleric, but you only dare do this when things have become unbearable, because a mage that makes too much trouble ends up dead or worse. Meanwhile, that person in charge of the people who are supposed to protect you, your jailors and abusers, keeps making things worse and worse. It gets bad enough that some of your jailors start helping some of your family escape. It gets bad enough that people who normally turn a blind eye to the mage and templar problem are actively harboring apostates and helping them get away. It gets bad enough that a man sent to Kirkwall specifically because he was too abusive and extreme for the Ferelden Circle stops and goes 'uh, hey, this is getting a little out of hand...'

Then the worst happens. Meredith wants to Yet Again push the limits of what she's allowed to do to you and your family. And yet again, despite now being under house arrest, you risk yourself to go to the Chantry to beg the Grand Cleric to make Meredith stop. But some crazy apostate blows up the Chantry. He destroys your one hope of stopping this insanity, because now Meredith is the only one in Kirkwall calling the shots on what happens to you and your family.

...And then Meredith, who is standing right there and knows full well that none of you are responsible for what just happened, declares that she's now going to kill you and every single person in your family. Everyone you have ever known or cared about, children included. Everyone you are responsible for protecting. You beg her not to. You say you'll do anything. You even offer to help her carry out what she wanted to do before, if only she won't murder all of you. She won't listen. She tells you to go prepare your family for the slaughter. Everyone is going to die for something they didn't do, and no one is going to care.

Ah, but one small group of people cares. They're willing to stand with you. It's not nearly enough to fight off the massive numbers of Templars you know Meredith is bringing. Which means that this one small group of people, decent people you barely know, one of whom you know you've wronged because you kept silent on a matter that might have saved their parent, are all going to die too. For trying to help you.

So you send off your family, as many as you can. You tell them to run for their lives and try to survive, because that's all they can hope for now. You have no idea if any of them will. Probably not. Either way, you know you won't ever see them again. Those that stay with you? Get slaughtered in the very first wave. The Templars cut them down without hesitation or remorse, right in front of your eyes. Your new friends hold the line, but you know it can't last. More are coming, and you and everyone are going to die for no reason at all. No one will know what happened. No one will care what happened. You'll be instantly forgotten, because anyone who would have cared to remember will be dead along with you.

What was the point of it all? you wonder. Why would they ever let you live long enough to realize what a hopeless, hopeless, senseless life you were going to have? Why would they let you dream up false hopes that it would ever get better? Was this just a means to make it crueler? And why should you go quietly? What's the point of resisting temptations of power when you're going to be murdered regardless? Why not take a few of them with you when you go? They've made you live in terror your entire life, why not spend your last, pointless moments giving those bastards a reason to fear you? There is literally no reason to keep resisting.

This sums up why I forgave Orsino for turning into a Harvester as I mercy killed him and went out to take down Meredith.

[Ultima Hiryuu]

Orsino was a weak leader. Though he might have had reason to resort to blood magic, he did use the bodies of his "family" to become a monster. Obviously didn't care about a mage-supporting Hawk either. I mean Hawk was right there with him. He didn't really care that Hawk could get killed, despite wanting to support Orsino and the magi.

The whole game pushes magi out to be evil. You have magi wanting to create abominations in people. (Yes people, not just templar. She wanted to use Hawk and his/her companions just as much.) You have another wanting to use the body parts of murdered women for Necromancy. Then you have the leader of the Starkhaven mage refugees attacking Hawk, without provoction. Afterwards his lover doesn't care about a Templar that wants to help magi. She uses him and his Templar supporters as a puppet to attack Hawk. You have magi from Tevinter that love slavery and sacrificing innocents for power. (Though it was already established that Tevinter magi only seemed to care about power.) What I already established with Orsino and Anders blowing up the Chantry. I'm sure there's more I missed, but that should be enough.

Despite all this, not all magi are evil. Even blood magic isn't really evil. It all depends on who uses it and what they use it for. The game does have some good magi in it. Bioware seemed intent on pushing most out to be evil, though.

I prefer to side with the magi. They've been oppressed and mistreated their entire lives. I don't, however, support Orsino. Not to mention the Right of Annulment is way too far, especially when Anders is right there. There are innocent magi in the Circle.

Dragon Age 2 feels more like a "Dark Dark Dark Dark WTF Evil Incarnate and Death Fantasy game" rather then just a "Dark Fantasy game". Of course you can mark that up to the writers and executive producers. Guess they got really warped minds between DAO and DA2.

Modifié par Ultima Hiryuu, 01 avril 2011 - 12:07 .

[Bratinov]

Why did I side with the mages? Its simple, there are innocent people, including children in the tower who are sentenced to death for a crime they did not commit.
Even Meredit knows this, yet she wants to slaughter everyone even after the circle surrendered, and for what? To appease a ignorant bloodthirsty mob? Not to mention the righteous templars are a bunch of drug crazed addicts who abuse their authority and their supposed holy chantry looks like a devil worshiper's sanctum on the inside!

Modifié par Bratinov, 01 avril 2011 - 01:09 .

[Knightly_BW]

Bratinov wrote...

Even Meredit knows this, yet she wants to slaughter everyone even after the circle surrendered, and for what?

Demons don't care if a mage is child or not (Points Connor's direction). She trying to do what she has to do, not whole-heartedly even in her idol influenced state. It is really cruel but someone has to do that dirty work for well being of civilians.

Edit: Oh I also support your sign. Jade Empire is awesome.

Modifié par Asperius, 01 avril 2011 - 01:20 .

[Eollodwyn]

Asperius wrote...

Bratinov wrote...

Even Meredit knows this, yet she wants to slaughter everyone even after the circle surrendered, and for what?

Demons don't care if a mage is child or not (Points Connor's direction). She trying to do what she has to do, not whole-heartedly even in her idol influenced state. It is really cruel but someone has to do that dirty work for well being of civilians.

Edit: Oh I also support your sign. Jade Empire is awesome.

Except she's not doing it for the wellbeing of anyone.  She admits that she's doing it because she knows the people of Kirkwall are going to want heads to roll.  Orsino and Sebastian both say that the real culprit is right there, and Meredith shrugs them off, saying "The people will demand blood, and I will give it to them,"  (or something to that effect).  It has nothing to do with demons or blood magic or the good of the people.

[Alelsa]

Eollodwyn wrote...
Orsino and Sebastian both say that the real culprit is right there, and Meredith shrugs them off, saying "The people will demand blood, and I will give it to them,"  (or something to that effect).  It has nothing to do with demons or blood magic or the good of the people.

I read between the lines of that as her saying  "I want blood.  The people, as ever, make a convenient excuse."

[hoorayforicecream]

On the one hand, it's easy to say "I support freedom. Mages have been oppressed their entire lives, and they shouldn't be." On the other hand, yo. u have to think about it from the standpoint of a non-rmage leader:

1. There is a group of people who don't answer to you living in or near your country that can kill you and your citizens with their brains.
2. These people have a history of being unhinged rather easily, and could, at any time, become homicidal maniacs capable of leveling a city block (demon possession) due to a single error in judgment.

Bringing armed forces into another nation without their approval is considered an act of war. For people with the amount of power and destructive capabilities as mages, everyone else absolutely needs some form of security. Templars aren't perfect, but security is their primary purpose.

Painting the templars with the "most/all of them are oppressive" is a shallow overgeneralization. As Orsino said, you can't paint them all with the same brush..

[Eollodwyn]

Alelsa wrote...

Eollodwyn wrote...
Orsino and Sebastian both say that the real culprit is right there, and Meredith shrugs them off, saying "The people will demand blood, and I will give it to them,"  (or something to that effect).  It has nothing to do with demons or blood magic or the good of the people.

I read between the lines of that as her saying  "I want blood.  The people, as ever, make a convenient excuse."

I understood that, myself.  But it doesn't mean she's doing it for anyone's good.  Half the crazy blood mages we meet aren't even in the Circle and even her own Templars are questioning her sanity.  The argument that she invoked the Rite of Annulment to protect the innocent people of Kirkwall is just wrong.

[Badpie]

Having done both, I felt like the honorable thing to do was side with the mages. Both sides have their faults (namely their leaders), but with the mages, you're defending rather than assaulting. Plus I just couldn't deal with the idea of "some people are bad so we should kill all of them."