176 réponses à ce sujet

[dreadpiratesnugglecakes]

Kartikeya wrote...

I'm not sure why people are so confused over Orsino's freakout. The man hit total despair. He even gives a speech about it. It doesn't matter if it was rational or not, he's just seen the only family he has massacred in front of his eyes for a crime he knows and THE TEMPLARS KNOW they weren't remotely responsible for. Forgive me for using the dog anology again, but.

If you have a dog, even the most mellow, even tempered pooch, and you start kicking this dog, and kicking it, and kicking it, at some point, maybe sooner, maybe later, the dog is going to try to take your leg off.

Does that mean the dog was violent all along?

So, to keep your dog analogy, your neighbor (Anders) decides he should free your dog by blowing up a local elementary school because what did they do, after all to keep you from kicking your dog.  Or maybe, he could have done something that made sense and stopped you from kicking your dog instead of wiping out a bunch of people that had nothing to do with it. 

Anders' action made no sense based on the history of his character or in the context of trying to start a revolution.  He started a war the mages didn't want to stop a Templar from abusing them; instead of provoking the Templars and protecting the innocent, as a healer and former soldier would do, he discredited the people he was trying to save by murdering in their name.  Does it help the mages?  No.  It guarantees they will all die.  Did it provoke the Templars?  Well, yes, but sneaking out of the chantry was enough to provoke them so it was pretty over the top to blow up a church.  Did it hurt Meredith?  No, it just gave her more justification to do what she wanted to do. 
It was poor writing; something extreme to force an emotional reaction.  It also destroyed a good character by making him into a sub moronic sociopath.  

There were plenty of other ways Anders could have achieved his result and formented an insurrection without resorting to murder of innocents.  Plenty of mages would have fought outside the circle; he could have waged a guerilla war; hit and run attacks on the Templars.  That's what a Grey Warden would do; that's what a former soldier would do. 

[HTTP 404]

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

Kartikeya wrote...

I'm not sure why people are so confused over Orsino's freakout. The man hit total despair. He even gives a speech about it. It doesn't matter if it was rational or not, he's just seen the only family he has massacred in front of his eyes for a crime he knows and THE TEMPLARS KNOW they weren't remotely responsible for. Forgive me for using the dog anology again, but.

If you have a dog, even the most mellow, even tempered pooch, and you start kicking this dog, and kicking it, and kicking it, at some point, maybe sooner, maybe later, the dog is going to try to take your leg off.

Does that mean the dog was violent all along?

So, to keep your dog analogy, your neighbor (Anders) decides he should free your dog by blowing up a local elementary school because what did they do, after all to keep you from kicking your dog.  Or maybe, he could have done something that made sense and stopped you from kicking your dog instead of wiping out a bunch of people that had nothing to do with it. 

Anders' action made no sense based on the history of his character or in the context of trying to start a revolution.  He started a war the mages didn't want to stop a Templar from abusing them; instead of provoking the Templars and protecting the innocent, as a healer and former soldier would do, he discredited the people he was trying to save by murdering in their name.  Does it help the mages?  No.  It guarantees they will all die.  Did it provoke the Templars?  Well, yes, but sneaking out of the chantry was enough to provoke them so it was pretty over the top to blow up a church.  Did it hurt Meredith?  No, it just gave her more justification to do what she wanted to do. 
It was poor writing; something extreme to force an emotional reaction.  It also destroyed a good character by making him into a sub moronic sociopath.  

There were plenty of other ways Anders could have achieved his result and formented an insurrection without resorting to murder of innocents.  Plenty of mages would have fought outside the circle; he could have waged a guerilla war; hit and run attacks on the Templars.  That's what a Grey Warden would do; that's what a former soldier would do. 

Yah it does make no sense for Anders to do this but you are forgetting the spirit of Justice.  In awakenings, Justice challenged Anders to just fight the templars and kill them.  Anders in DA2 by ACt 3 was just as much Justice as he was Anders...of course there were better peaceful options but Anders/Justice did not have it in his/their nature to do so.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Camenae wrote...

Why does it have to be one or the other (Other than because the game forces you to choose one or the other)? If you sided with the Templars you're an evil **** who support genocide? If you sided with the Mages you are supporting demons and blood magic? Is anyone really unable to see arguments for BOTH sides, or just getting swept up by the heat of the debate?

There are more options. Varric at one point asks you what your future plans will be. I have chosen politics as the answer. That's the way to achieve power in this mess. If I as a mage sided with the mages then I can never be viscount. If I side with the templars then I can be a viscount. A viscount who is a mage can do more for us blood mages than one all by itself.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 02 avril 2011 - 08:19 .

[LobselVith8]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

There are more options. Varric at one point asks you what your future plans will be. I have chosen politics as the answer. That's the way to achieve power in this mess. If I as a mage sided with the mages then I can never be viscount. If I side with the templars then I can be a viscount. A viscount who is a mage can do more for us blood mages than one all by itself.

How much power did any of the Viscounts actually have, though? They were little more than puppet leaders of the templars. A mage who is a Viscount can do as much for the mages as a Hawke who flees Kirkwall: nothing. The newly crowned Viscount will have as much authority as every other Viscount who has held power at the sufferage of the templars. Considering that eastern Thedas will still be under the authority of the templars, the templars will still be the real power of Kirkwall.

[AngryFrozenWater]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

There are more options. Varric at one point asks you what your future plans will be. I have chosen politics as the answer. That's the way to achieve power in this mess. If I as a mage sided with the mages then I can never be viscount. If I side with the templars then I can be a viscount. A viscount who is a mage can do more for us blood mages than one all by itself.

How much power did any of the Viscounts actually have, though? They were little more than puppet leaders of the templars. A mage who is a Viscount can do as much for the mages as a Hawke who flees Kirkwall: nothing. The newly crowned Viscount will have as much authority as every other Viscount who has held power at the sufferage of the templars. Considering that eastern Thedas will still be under the authority of the templars, the templars will still be the real power of Kirkwall.

Yeah. You might be right about that. But that's true for nearly any decision you make. It doesn't have true impact. It's always cosmetic and the story always plays out the same.

[Eollodwyn]

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...



So, to keep your dog analogy, your neighbor (Anders) decides he should free your dog by blowing up a local elementary school because what did they do, after all to keep you from kicking your dog.  Or maybe, he could have done something that made sense and stopped you from kicking your dog instead of wiping out a bunch of people that had nothing to do with it. 

Keep in mind that Templars are a branch of the Chantry.  The Chantry runs the Circle.  The Right of Annulment, Rite of Tranquility, etc. are all things the Chantry invented and sanctions.  For nearly a thousand years the Clerics have been preaching as part of their sermons that magic is evil and mages need to be locked up and hated.  Anders didn't attack some neutral third party; everything the Templars do to mages (barring the rapes and beatings) is because the Chantry approves of and often mandates it.  And even if Meredith is going outside the power the Chantry gives her, Elthina makes it very clear she has no intention of stepping in and stopping it, despite the fact that Meredith ultimately answers to her.

Modifié par Eollodwyn, 02 avril 2011 - 10:36 .

[Eollodwyn]

Double post.

Modifié par Eollodwyn, 02 avril 2011 - 10:36 .

[Rifneno]

Eollodwyn wrote...

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...



So, to keep your dog analogy, your neighbor (Anders) decides he should free your dog by blowing up a local elementary school because what did they do, after all to keep you from kicking your dog.  Or maybe, he could have done something that made sense and stopped you from kicking your dog instead of wiping out a bunch of people that had nothing to do with it. 

Keep in mind that Templars are a branch of the Chantry.  The Chantry runs the Circle.  The Right of Annulment, Rite of Tranquility, etc. are all things the Chantry invented and sanctions.  For nearly a thousand years the Clerics have been preaching as part of their sermons that magic is evil and mages need to be locked up and hated.  Anders didn't attack some neutral third party; everything the Templars do to mages (barring the rapes and beatings) is because the Chantry approves of and often mandates it.  And even if Meredith is going outside the power the Chantry gives her, Elthina makes it very clear she has no intention of stepping in and stopping it, despite the fact that Meredith ultimately answers to her.

This.  So very much, this.  The Chantry is not even remotely innocent.  Are there some innocent people there that didn't deserve to die?  Of course.  The Chantry apologists also claim that a lot of the templars are good and decent people only trying to do what's right as well.  So why is it that attacking the good people in the templars would've been okay, but attacking the good people in the Chantry isn't?

Elthina deserves special mention.  I spit on that ****'s charred corpse.  If any single person in this game deserved to die, it was Elthina.  Bartrand and Meredith can claim they were corrupted by the idol, most of the templars can claim lyrium addiction or having seen too much blood mage horror messing with their minds (such as Cullen).  The mages... I don't even need to explain that one.  Elthina is the only one who truly has absolutely no excuse for her wrongdoing.  She is in complete control of her senses and allows this pot to boil over.  She's in a position of power and she refuses to even just do her job.  Proof of the templars abuses and breakings of the Chantry Law are everywhere, yet she refuses to take any action against the rampant abuses of power taking place under her command.  She actually goes so far as to say the mages need to stop their rebellions.  My God.  How dare she!  These people are subjected to everything from rape to murder by her underlings, and she has the gall to say that?!  I reiterate: I spit on her charred corpse.  May she burn in hell where she belongs.

[IanPolaris]

Rifneno wrote...

Elthina deserves special mention.  I spit on that ****'s charred corpse.  If any single person in this game deserved to die, it was Elthina.  Bartrand and Meredith can claim they were corrupted by the idol, most of the templars can claim lyrium addiction or having seen too much blood mage horror messing with their minds (such as Cullen).  The mages... I don't even need to explain that one.  Elthina is the only one who truly has absolutely no excuse for her wrongdoing.  She is in complete control of her senses and allows this pot to boil over.  She's in a position of power and she refuses to even just do her job.  Proof of the templars abuses and breakings of the Chantry Law are everywhere, yet she refuses to take any action against the rampant abuses of power taking place under her command.  She actually goes so far as to say the mages need to stop their rebellions.  My God.  How dare she!  These people are subjected to everything from rape to murder by her underlings, and she has the gall to say that?!  I reiterate: I spit on her charred corpse.  May she burn in hell where she belongs.

This.  Oh yes, very much this.  All my pro-mage Hawkes ever asked, even BEGGED Elthina to do was no more than her damned job as Grand Cleric!  Even when you show her written proof that the Templars are breaking Templar law (the Tranquil solution) she refuses to take action.  Even before the idol, it is quite clear that Knight Commander Meridith wishes she was Vi-Countess Meridith as well, but the Chantry Law doesn't permit this.  Elthina is well away of this being a life-long resident of Kirkwall, but she does nothing to enforce the Chantry's own DAMN LAWS.

She deserves a special place in Dante's Inferno.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  What particularly galls me is when I go to her durin the Justice Quest and ask, even BEG her to enforce her own damn laws against the templars, the old cow has the GALL to say that "I've been inciting rebellion".  How dare she!?

Modifié par IanPolaris, 02 avril 2011 - 11:18 .

[IanPolaris]

dp

[The Angry One]

Yeah cause I'm sure Meredith would've backed down if Elthina had blatantly taken a stance and wouldn't have started an opposition which wouldn't have resulted in an Exalted March or anything..

[Rifneno]

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah cause I'm sure Meredith would've backed down if Elthina had blatantly taken a stance and wouldn't have started an opposition which wouldn't have resulted in an Exalted March or anything..

Yeah because things turned out so much better when she saw on her wrinkled, self-righteous backside and let it blow up into a war engulfing most of Thedas.

[The Angry One]

Rifneno wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah cause I'm sure Meredith would've backed down if Elthina had blatantly taken a stance and wouldn't have started an opposition which wouldn't have resulted in an Exalted March or anything..

Yeah because things turned out so much better when she saw on her wrinkled, self-righteous backside and let it blow up into a war engulfing most of Thedas.

So now it's her fault a terrorist blew her up too?

[IanPolaris]

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah cause I'm sure Meredith would've backed down if Elthina had blatantly taken a stance and wouldn't have started an opposition which wouldn't have resulted in an Exalted March or anything..

She damned well should have tried!  If Knight Commander Meridith doesn't respect the authority of the Grand Cleric, then the tail is wagging the dog, and the Templars (at least her templars) are in open revolt.

Kiss those Lyrium shipments bye-bye.

Do you think prior to this that Divine Justina (or any Divine) would tolerate a Knight Commander (no matter how politically powerful) giving the Grand Cleric ANY lip whatsoever.

However, by not even doing her damned job, Elthina gave Meridith all the cover she needed to spit on the Chantry's own laws let alone anythng remotely resembling humane....and this was happening before the idol.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

The Angry One wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah cause I'm sure Meredith would've backed down if Elthina had blatantly taken a stance and wouldn't have started an opposition which wouldn't have resulted in an Exalted March or anything..

Yeah because things turned out so much better when she saw on her wrinkled, self-righteous backside and let it blow up into a war engulfing most of Thedas.

So now it's her fault a terrorist blew her up too?

There is no excuse for Ander's action.  It was terrorism pure and simple.  But Elthina was responsible and indeed a good argument can be made that she has primary responsibility for allowing things to get this bad.

Even Sabastian is aghast at Elthina's lack of action.

-Polaris

[Rifneno]

The Angry One wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah cause I'm sure Meredith would've backed down if Elthina had blatantly taken a stance and wouldn't have started an opposition which wouldn't have resulted in an Exalted March or anything..

Yeah because things turned out so much better when she saw on her wrinkled, self-righteous backside and let it blow up into a war engulfing most of Thedas.

So now it's her fault a terrorist blew her up too?

You misspelled "an awesome and just man."  Please proofread next time.

[Adanu]

The Angry One wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah cause I'm sure Meredith would've backed down if Elthina had blatantly taken a stance and wouldn't have started an opposition which wouldn't have resulted in an Exalted March or anything..

Yeah because things turned out so much better when she saw on her wrinkled, self-righteous backside and let it blow up into a war engulfing most of Thedas.

So now it's her fault a terrorist blew her up too?

She became a target when she had all the power to stop it and did nothing. She was the valve that kept everything from blowing up completely. Anders picked his target well.

[Bayz]

But her stances were the only ones that maintained the status quo. Anders picked her as a target because otherwise she would keep appeasing one side or the other (or none) until things get calmer again.

Anders (Justice actually) picked her because he wanted a war.

[Rifneno]

Bayz wrote...

But her stances were the only ones that maintained the status quo. Anders picked her as a target because otherwise she would keep appeasing one side or the other (or none) until things get calmer again.

Anders (Justice actually) picked her because he wanted a war.

Maybe.  That doesn't mean she didn't completely deserve it though.  It just means karma's a female mabari.

[Eollodwyn]

Bayz wrote...

But her stances were the only ones that maintained the status quo. Anders picked her as a target because otherwise she would keep appeasing one side or the other (or none) until things get calmer again.

Anders (Justice actually) picked her because he wanted a war.

Why does the status quo strike you as worth maintaining?  Seems to me that things in Kirkwall were pretty awful, and if you're pro-mage then the status quo is the exact thing you want to change.  For all that she was reasonable and tried to play something of a peacemaker, she never had any intention of addressing how HER people were abusing mages or the fact that the very existence of the Circle is an injustice.  She may have been able to keep things from getting explosive (though she didn't seem interested in doing that), but she would never have solved anything.

I honestly liked Elthina.  I think she was a good woman and strong in her own way, but her insistence on staying out of things was making it worse for everyone.  She was an enabler of horrendous proportions.

[Arppis]

Because no matter how many of them you kill, there will always be mages and they won't go away. Unless you want to start testing every baby and killing them when they are declared mages, there needs to be a better sollution for the problem. Ofcourse, I'm sure there is a chance that if you keep killing people with potential "mage genes", you might be able to weed the mages out.

But that's just stupid.

[Adanu]

Bayz wrote...

But her stances were the only ones that maintained the status quo. Anders picked her as a target because otherwise she would keep appeasing one side or the other (or none) until things get calmer again.

Anders (Justice actually) picked her because he wanted a war.

If you honestly think the status quo was worth maintaining, I have nothing more to say to you.

[Huntress]

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

Kartikeya wrote...

I'm not sure why people are so confused over Orsino's freakout. The man hit total despair. He even gives a speech about it. It doesn't matter if it was rational or not, he's just seen the only family he has massacred in front of his eyes for a crime he knows and THE TEMPLARS KNOW they weren't remotely responsible for. Forgive me for using the dog anology again, but.

If you have a dog, even the most mellow, even tempered pooch, and you start kicking this dog, and kicking it, and kicking it, at some point, maybe sooner, maybe later, the dog is going to try to take your leg off.

Does that mean the dog was violent all along?

So, to keep your dog analogy, your neighbor (Anders) decides he should free your dog by blowing up a local elementary school because what did they do, after all to keep you from kicking your dog.  Or maybe, he could have done something that made sense and stopped you from kicking your dog instead of wiping out a bunch of people that had nothing to do with it. 

Anders' action made no sense based on the history of his character or in the context of trying to start a revolution.  He started a war the mages didn't want to stop a Templar from abusing them; instead of provoking the Templars and protecting the innocent, as a healer and former soldier would do, he discredited the people he was trying to save by murdering in their name.  Does it help the mages?  No.  It guarantees they will all die.  Did it provoke the Templars?  Well, yes, but sneaking out of the chantry was enough to provoke them so it was pretty over the top to blow up a church.  Did it hurt Meredith?  No, it just gave her more justification to do what she wanted to do. 
It was poor writing; something extreme to force an emotional reaction.  It also destroyed a good character by making him into a sub moronic sociopath.  

There were plenty of other ways Anders could have achieved his result and formented an insurrection without resorting to murder of innocents.  Plenty of mages would have fought outside the circle; he could have waged a guerilla war; hit and run attacks on the Templars.  That's what a Grey Warden would do; that's what a former soldier would do. 

So you think the Chantry as an Elementary school? wake the hell up, the chantry only teach fear to the commun people, is in favor of taking away mages from their families, and putting them in a prision cell with others mages, giving lyrium to the templars to keep them away from making any rational thought.

If the mages didn't want to start a war why do they turn to blood-magic and try to enslave demons? because they just can?  They do it because blood magic is the ONLY magic the templars can't fight back, and thats the way they get OUT of the prision they have been for all their lives. They don't turn to blood magic to allow templars to keep abusing them as you said, is to keep them the hell out of their lives. (  added  lines to stop you from getting lost in your post or mine)

Please name other ways? the templars were turning mages to tranquil left, right and center, tranquils won't fight back, they are just breathing empty sacks, and yet you have no problem with that.

Where are the innocents?? The chantry was with couple of priests and the leader didn't care for either group.. wow very innocent. I am sure she knew what was happening and yet she did nothing about it. Thats not innocence, thats call sitting on the fence.

Anders was consumed by everything that was happening and getting to the same extreme as meredith, he took the fight to the heart and soul  of the templars, The Chantry.

Keep making post about how good is to keep people in prision even when they haven't commited any crimes, and please keep us inform of why mages should be turnned tranquil even when they not want to be made tranquil, it'll probably gives you more credibility.

[DKJaigen]

The Angry One wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah cause I'm sure Meredith would've backed down if Elthina had blatantly taken a stance and wouldn't have started an opposition which wouldn't have resulted in an Exalted March or anything..

Yeah because things turned out so much better when she saw on her wrinkled, self-righteous backside and let it blow up into a war engulfing most of Thedas.

So now it's her fault a terrorist blew her up too?

The grand cleric is the leader of the religious organisation that suppresses mages. Not a single sister/brother within that structure is innocent because they support a rather questionable organisation.  The fact that they have not performed any military acts is pretty much irrelevant. In WW2 non military ****'s where just as frequently targeted by saboteurs as the german military. why? because they are the ones who are responsible for the whole mess. the same can be said for the chantry. in my opinion grand cleric deserves to die. If you have the power to prevent people from dying and you dont use it then you are just as responsible

[AshenEndymion]

DKJaigen wrote...

The grand cleric is the leader of the religious organisation that suppresses mages. Not a single sister/brother within that structure is innocent because they support a rather questionable organisation.  The fact that they have not performed any military acts is pretty much irrelevant. In WW2 non military ****'s where just as frequently targeted by saboteurs as the german military. why? because they are the ones who are responsible for the whole mess. the same can be said for the chantry. in my opinion grand cleric deserves to die. If you have the power to prevent people from dying and you dont use it then you are just as responsible

The bolded portion is the justification used to suppress "innocent" mages.  Mages have the power to kill many, many people.  Either by their own actions, or by their inability to prevent a demon from taking their body.  The Chantry and the Templars have the power to prevent the vast majority of people from dying at the hands of magic.  They use that power because if they don't, they would be responsible for those deaths.

You keep a gun in a lockbox because a gun can dangerous to others.  And until there is a need for the gun, there is no reason to brandish it about, creating dangerous situations for no reason.  The Circles are, in essence, lockboxes for mages.  One can make the premise that mages are people, and not just weapons of magic.  But the fact that the only people who say that in Thedas are mages.... Well, it is highly doubtful that the sentiment will ever change.  Especially when mages are blowing up Chantries because they feel slighted.