55 réponses à ce sujet

[Viyu]

About the nudity: I think this came about because of Fox News' idiocy. But  Bioware, seriously. Damage control is FAR FAR too late. By Awakening the main villain is a broodmother with like, 12 BARE BREASTS. That's what I can never understand. Broodmother ******? A-ok! Half naked characters?! Oh dear God no!

Modifié par Viyu, 09 mai 2011 - 12:31 .

[SwordsmanofShadow]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but Bioware should have taken a page from Epic Games on how to do a sequel. Gears of War 1 was a successful game, both in terms of reviews and revenue- Like DA:O. What they did with GoW2 (and GoW3) is what Bio needed to do.

GoW2 came out after the massively successful COD4. GoW3 is coming out after MW2 and Black Ops. They did not (and are not) try to appeal to the CoD type of market by changing the fundamentals of how their game plays. They instead stuck to their guns and what they did best- third person gameplay. It was a wide open market (with only Mass Effect and Ghost Recon as real competition), and they choose to focus on their own market rather than trying to reinvent the wheel. You didn't hear them going "Let's make Gears a FPS with real world weapons!"

What happened with GoW2 was better storyline, faster gameplay, more entertaining multiplayer. They built on the first, and not only appealed to the TPS market, they got other markets(FPS crowd, casual gamers) by showing a fun alternate to CoD. They're doing it again with GoW3.

Bioware/Ea, in an attempt to draw a larger market, decided to do an upheaval of their series. We have seen the results. In an attempt to get more, they've offended more and drawn less.

What I think they failed to realize (and continually fail to realize) is that perhaps the CoD/FPS/Casual market doesn't want more FPS style CoD. Maybe, just maybe they look at other games for a different experience. I enjoy Modern Warfare, GoW style games. But just because I play those type of games doesn't mean I want to see FPS/TPS features in an RPG.

If I want to play something with COD style of play- I'll play CoD, or Medal of Honor. If you want to appeal to that market, build a game from the ground up that is meant for that market.

If they aren't capable of realizing something that simple, they deserve to fail.

[erynnar]

SwordsmanofShadow wrote...

I can't believe I'm saying this, but Bioware should have taken a page from Epic Games on how to do a sequel. Gears of War 1 was a successful game, both in terms of reviews and revenue- Like DA:O. What they did with GoW2 (and GoW3) is what Bio needed to do.

GoW2 came out after the massively successful COD4. GoW3 is coming out after MW2 and Black Ops. They did not (and are not) try to appeal to the CoD type of market by changing the fundamentals of how their game plays. They instead stuck to their guns and what they did best- third person gameplay. It was a wide open market (with only Mass Effect and Ghost Recon as real competition), and they choose to focus on their own market rather than trying to reinvent the wheel. You didn't hear them going "Let's make Gears a FPS with real world weapons!"

What happened with GoW2 was better storyline, faster gameplay, more entertaining multiplayer. They built on the first, and not only appealed to the TPS market, they got other markets(FPS crowd, casual gamers) by showing a fun alternate to CoD. They're doing it again with GoW3.

Bioware/Ea, in an attempt to draw a larger market, decided to do an upheaval of their series. We have seen the results. In an attempt to get more, they've offended more and drawn less.

What I think they failed to realize (and continually fail to realize) is that perhaps the CoD/FPS/Casual market doesn't want more FPS style CoD. Maybe, just maybe they look at other games for a different experience. I enjoy Modern Warfare, GoW style games. But just because I play those type of games doesn't mean I want to see FPS/TPS features in an RPG.

If I want to play something with COD style of play- I'll play CoD, or Medal of Honor. If you want to appeal to that market, build a game from the ground up that is meant for that market.

If they aren't capable of realizing something that simple, they deserve to fail.

And you really couldn't have said it any better. BioWare shouldn't have gone for a different crowd, and stuck with what they do best evolving it and making it an even bettter and stronger RPG.

[Dragoonlordz]

@ SwordsmanofShadow

I feel as do many people I have noticed that the way to make sequals is to improve on the former title specifically baby steps and not try something new without an extremely good reason. Framed narrative (akin to me of focusing on the main protaganist character and his or her experience) and cinematic experience games are a dime a dozen the marketplace is flooded with them. I think the crowd that EA want and Bioware agreed with was to pull in the more casual action gamer (Darksiders, Dantes, GoW) rather than the FPS crowd. Bioware already had a game of that standing and type with Mass Effect, I see/saw no reason why they should convert/change another franchise into the same as that.

Spice is the variety of life as I have mentioned before and having their toes dipped in both genres and narrative styles (Action RPG of Mass Effect and swords and spells BG style RPG aka DAO) is broadening the fanbase as opposed to diluting or converging two different franchises into one style. This is just my view but it rings true as far as I am concerned. People keep talking change for the sake of avoiding stagnation but in reality it's merely (fear) of stagnation, as DAO was not a stagnating franchise it in fact was highly successfull within the genre that Bioware make their games and always have (RPGs). It's really a shame Bioware can't understand that imho.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 mai 2011 - 01:38 .

[Elhanan]

Viyu wrote...

About the nudity: I think this came about because of Fox News' idiocy. But  Bioware, seriously. Damage control is FAR FAR too late. By Awakening the main villain is a broodmother with like, 12 BARE BREASTS. That's what I can never understand. Broodmother ******? A-ok! Half naked characters?! Oh dear God no!

So, what is your fave flavor of Kool-Aid?

And do you really believe that immature males are snapping shots of a Broodmother in the same way they speak about Bethany and Isabella on the forums? What this game does not need is increasing the discussed levels seen and heard already; needs cold-showers, Palmolive for it's rich bouquet, imagination, and a Gibb's slap....

[erynnar]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I feel as do many people I have noticed that the way to make sequals is to improve on the former title specifically baby steps and not try something new without an extremely good reason. Framed narrative (akin to me of focusing on the main protaganist character and his or her experience) and cinematic experience games are a dime a dozen the marketplace is flooded with them. I think the crowd that EA want and Bioware agreed with was to pull in the more casual action gamer (Darksiders, Dantes, GoW) rather than the FPS crowd. Bioware already had a game of that standing and type with Mass Effect, I see/saw no reason why they should convert/change another franchise into the same as that. Spice is the variety of life as I have mentiond before and having their toes dipped in both genres and narrative styles is broadening the fanbase not diluting or converging two different franchises into one style. This is just my view but it rings true as far as I am concerned. People keep talking change for the sake of avoiding stagnation but in reality it's merely (fear) of stagnation, as DAO was not a stagnating franchise is in fact was highly successfull within the genre that Bioware make their games and always have (RPGs).

Yeah slammed that turd of an argument earlier today on a different thread. The quaint "fear of change" argument.

I said:
Okay, that argument, "can't except change" is utter bull****e and has
been disproven on this forum. It sounds cool for marketing and for DA
devs being interviewed as a little catch all for trying to explain away
the poor response to DA2 in the hopes it will keep the media from asking
anymore questions.

It is utter crap and anyone still using it
knows it. Along with "confirmation bias."  Both sound so full of
righteousness in a nice litle sound bit; when in actuality, both
arguments are full of sound and fury, full of hot air, tales told by
idiots (to paraphrase Shakespeare, that blessed bard).

Not all
change is good, as is proven by the poor reception to DA2.  There were
plenty of changes I was expecting from DAO to DA2. What I wasn't
expecting was a hybridized mediocre game (anime, CoD, hack n' slash,
button_awesome masher, with a smidgen of RPG) that tried to wear too
many hats, serve too many masters, and wound up falling flat on it's
face because of this. It pleased  neither of the groups in the genres it
was trying for because of this. And  it became... bleh. That's what
happened when they tried to make an RPG for people who don't like RPGs
in a grab for millions more fans and more money.

So the "afraid of change" ****e can be flushed down the crapper, just like the turd it is.

[KilrB]

I'd like to express my appreciation for this thread.

I wish that I had the time, patience, and where-withal to voice my objections and dislikes to DA2 with the objectivity and eloquence displayed here.

(Reading through this is keeping me from doing my job atm.)

The argument about "fearing change" especially angers me as I was really looking forward to some of the changes story/plot wise.

They quite simply did a very poor job of it.

Thank you for this Dragonlordz.

And for your reasoned responses I thank the rest.

Ah ... my machines call me away.

Modifié par KilrB, 09 mai 2011 - 02:47 .

[Dragoonlordz]

KilrB wrote...

Thank you for your response, the maturity in tone of reply and appreication of time spend creating the thread is warmly recieved.

[Rockpopple]

Agree with you for some, disagree with you for most. I don't think your opinion about the game is news to anyone and engendered an entirely new post, but whatever. That's why they say opinions are like ****s: everybody has one.

Edit: I just realised this is a month old zombie thread. My apologies for my part in reviving it.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 09 mai 2011 - 03:48 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Rockpopple wrote...

Agree with you for some, disagree with you for most. I don't think your opinion about the game is news to anyone and engendered an entirely new post, but whatever. That's why they say opinions are like ****s: everybody has one.

Edit: I just realised this is a month old zombie thread. My apologies for my part in reviving it.

As long as people keep responding to me in it talking about my views I will continue to reply to them whether it's month old or a year old out of courtesy. I created this thread then copied it into the CC back on like page 30-40 or something of after the CC thread was made. The one I placed in the CC was for the developers to read, the one here was for the rest of us to read and debate.
 
I actually hate that the CC thread has people arguing points over each others opinions and would prefer in that specific thread people posted what they wanted to see and left it. Kind of feels like everyone is trying to convince everyone else they wrong on these forums for the most part and I hate that the CC thread has also in part become like this. 

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 mai 2011 - 04:41 .

[KilrB]

Rockpopple wrote...

Agree with you for some, disagree with you for most. I don't think your opinion about the game is news to anyone and engendered an entirely new post, but whatever. That's why they say opinions are like ****s: everybody has one.

Edit: I just realised this is a month old zombie thread. My apologies for my part in reviving it.

Some threads are worth reviving.

We don't all have time to read through 75+ pages of older threads to find the good ones.

[erynnar]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

Agree with you for some, disagree with you for most. I don't think your opinion about the game is news to anyone and engendered an entirely new post, but whatever. That's why they say opinions are like ****s: everybody has one.

Edit: I just realised this is a month old zombie thread. My apologies for my part in reviving it.

As long as people keep responding to me in it talking about my views I will continue to reply to them whether it's month old or a year old out of courtesy. I created this thread then copied it into the CC back on like page 30-40 or something of after the CC thread was made. The one I placed in the CC was for the developers to read, the one here was for the rest of us to read and debate.
 
I actually hate that the CC thread has people arguing points over each others opinions and would prefer in that specific thread people posted what they wanted to see and left it. Kind of feels like everyone is trying to convince everyone else they wrong on these forums for the most part and I hate that the CC thread has also in part become like this. 

I quit going on the CC thread, I posted what I thought, and I didn't want to try and convince anyone to change their minds (still don't). I had no idea it had gotten that bad on CC. thanks letting us revive this zombie thread!

[schminck]

I've been disappointed for a long while ever since the credits rolled on DA:II.

I also do not understand why anyone would disagree with this review for the most part.  Sure, everyone has their own opinion, but honestly how can someone walk away from DA:II with a skip in their step?  Why wouldn't anyone say after playing DA:II "...Bioware? I would like a BETTER game than that, please, next time..."

If we don't hold people accountable for their mediocre products, we'll keep getting mediocre results.  What's wrong with us demanding higher standards?

Modifié par schminck, 18 mai 2011 - 06:08 .

[erynnar]

Because, some like less RPG and more streamlined. Some found it they can love it despite all the flaws. There are those that love it, and more and more, even agreeing that there are things wrong with it (bless them, I wish I could be one). They know it's not the best BioWare has ever made, but they like it. Nothing wrong with that.

You and I schminck, and quite a few are in the other camp. It's just preference (except for those glaring issues we all agree on).

[Dragoonlordz]

erynnar wrote...

Because, some like less RPG and more streamlined. Some found it they can love it despite all the flaws. There are those that love it, and more and more, even agreeing that there are things wrong with it (bless them, I wish I could be one). They know it's not the best BioWare has ever made, but they like it. Nothing wrong with that.

You and I schminck, and quite a few are in the other camp. It's just preference (except for those glaring issues we all agree on).

LOL the specific comment "bless them" made this image pop into my head...



P.s. Devs not allowed to tell me off for this thread being bumped, someone clicked on my review and they are entitled to read and post in it. I am grateful that they took the time to read it, so thanks.

[erynnar]

ROFL! I didn't mean it in a patronizing way! Sorry if any one took it that way. Aw that image is cute.

I did think your review very well thought out.

[Lestatman]

Great post. With the companions armor I heard that the set armor was to give the companions their unique personality but no matter what armor I put on Morrigan she was still Morrigan and changing her armor did nothing stop that.

Would also agree that I would rather wait if EA would let Bioware make a more larger open world game that redoing the same areas again and again as Dragon Age 2 felt more like Deja Vu 2.

[Dragoonlordz]

Lestatman wrote...

Great post. With the companions armor I heard that the set armor was to give the companions their unique personality but no matter what armor I put on Morrigan she was still Morrigan and changing her armor did nothing stop that.

Would also agree that I would rather wait if EA would let Bioware make a more larger open world game that redoing the same areas again and again as Dragon Age 2 felt more like Deja Vu 2.

I consider personality forged through dialogue not what they wear, I think Bioware used that phrase as an excuse for some point down the line a) selling people costume packs didn't have the time or skill to change the models and effect of the cinematics. Either way both reasons are not good enough for me to remove customisation. I could wear jeans and t-shirt or a tutu neither of which changes my personality just my fashion sense. We all had to use our imaginations to make excuses for Bioware in the shortfalls of DA2 whether from barely changing world over time to being the only mage in Kirkwall that templars never noticed even when throw a fireball in front of their eyes and prior to even being someone of importance that they would not wish to attack.

Even making excuses as to why you can never talk to your companions outside of handing in or starting quests or timed events, which makes your character feel like a leper or clearly not part of the gang because they wont talk to you. Then there's having to make excuses as to why it's still daylight in 'dark'town at night or static NPCs for years, more gangs and bandits than the entire population of Kirkwall x 100. Psychically knowing who a random found body part belongs too or item picked off the ground and many, many more things including corpses that after a vast amount of years still exist in Fenris's mansion not even decayed. It wouldn't take anymore imagination to use the concept that what gear you equip your companions to wear was something they wanted to wear.  

When Morrigane I put some different clothes on her, she was still Morrigane, she still spoke and acted like Morrigane and her personality was the same so this limitation in DA2 was nothing more than an excuse to me for lack of effort or bad judgement. So I agree with you completley on that.

Sorry took so long to reply, thanks for reading too.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 19 mai 2011 - 04:54 .

[Moshiecat]

Im so glad I happened across this thread - it summarises so competey the utter sense of disappointment I felt when I payed this game.

I had kinda put off playing it for a while as I'd heard of the changes that had been made and I didnt want to taint my current paying of DA:O. The game was ok, not half what I expected,and while I can forgive a few restrictions for the sake of saving money, the streamlining of DA:2,lack of character interaction, irritating combat (except for mage - although I do think AOE spells should not be so 'easy', even if knocked back, the spell was still cast instantaneously) and i miss the way my rogue could block, its to rushed and repetitive, lazy sidequests and inventory, and the ugly animation choices, I dont understand why the elves look so wierd when they are supposed to be deemed beautiful, creepy looking Sandal (who I adored in DA:O) and I cant describe whats wrong with Zevran and Alistair  amongst other issues - despite this I do have a soft spot for Anders and I respected his choice at the end, but there wasnt much of a story outwith the whole mage/templar aspect, the qunari quests (whilst a cool race) didnt make a whole lot of sense to me.

Dragoonordz you have eloquntly surmised the game to a tea, I ony wish I had the grammar to do the same and im really glad this has not become a b**tching fest which I have seen on other threads on this forum. It may because im more mature than a lot of the players, but slagging everyone off just makes it look petty and no one is going to heed any constructive critism on the back of that. im just gutted I missed out on all the discussion back in March.

Modifié par Moshiecat, 01 septembre 2011 - 06:51 .

[Zanallen]

Really? You just happened to "come across" a four month old thread?

[Maconbar]

Zanallen wrote...

Really? You just happened to "come across" a four month old thread?

haha

[Dragoonlordz]

@Zanallen

As the review is listed in my signature and has been since day I made the thread, I imagine the 'happened across this thread' could allude to fact clicked on the link in my signature. I created the thread actually 5 months ago Zanallen it got bumped at 4 months and now again by people seeing me post elsewhere followed by then noticing my signature.

Thanks, glad you enjoyed the read Moshie.

However while I am glad you enjoyed it Moshie, I am certain it will now end up being locked more than likely since it's second time been bumped by someone seeing it in my signature and reading then leaving a comment. Plus DA team don't really like me very much lol.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 01 septembre 2011 - 07:14 .

[Zanallen]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

@Zanallen

As the review is listed in my signature and has been since day I made the thread, I imagine the 'happened across this thread' could allude to fact clicked on the link in my signature. I created the thread actually 5 months ago Zanallen it got bumped at 4 months and now again by people seeing me post and then seeing my signature.

Thanks, glad you enjoyed the read Moshie.

However while I am glad you enjoyed it Moshie, I am certain it will now end up being locked more than likely since it's second time been bumped by someone seeing it in my signature and rading then leaving a comment. Plus DA team don't really like me very much lol.

That's fine I suppose. I just wish people would stop necroing threads. It has been happening rather a lot lately.

[Rockpopple]

I guess it's bound to happen when the boards slow down.

On the topic of this thread, I actually went back recently to re-play Dragon Age II, and I found that I was still enjoying it, perhaps even a little more now. It ages remarkably well. I've finally reached the point where I've done more playthroughs with II than I did with DA:O.

Someone asked - well to paraphrase - how people can enjoy this game or go away from this game with a skip in their step. Another person - En, very learned person - said many can like it while admitting its flaws. I'm one of them.

Is this game flawed? Hell yeah. (Though we have a mostly sharp disagreement as to what those "flaws" are) Could it be better? Much, MUCH better? But is it deep enough, engaging enough, -fun- enough for me to revisit months later and still have a blast? Yes. Absolutely. The journey is so very much worth it.

But that's just one gamer's opinion.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 02 septembre 2011 - 03:11 .

[Moshiecat]

Hey Dragoonlordz, I did just click on the link in your thread, but ive also found a lot of old threads through google (including the thread which led me to your link which I appreciated and certainly nothing to be persecuted over) as im new to the forums and as such have reactivated a bunch of threads.
I dont really see why this should be a problem - no-one is forced to read or comment on these threads, but if someone new wants to add to a discussion surely this should be welcomed on a social forum. I dont see the point in starting a new thread when I can add to an existing one
I can imagine why the DA team may not be keen on you, but providing contstructive critism is an asset, not to be overlooked in my opinion - everyone should be able to learn from their mistakes etc undulating praise offers no room for improvment imho