117 réponses à ce sujet

[desonnac00]

I am gonna avoid any and all spoilers ofcourse, so read without worry.
Ok, so we all know the reapers are coming- They will be here by ME3.
Thus far it was possible that their speedy arrival is due to someone IN Milky way helping them, because otherwise ME1 and ME2 don't make much sense.
Because we still don't know how separated in time ME2 and ME3 It's safe to assume that the reapers arrive shortly after ME2(The gyus who've played Arrival are rising a brow- I'm just avoiding spoilers.).
That negates the entire plot of ME2 AND ME1.
Picture, for a moment, a Reaper- a THING as old as... the Galaxy for all we know. Countless Eons of existense.
Let's forget ME1 for a moment:

So the Reapers have no Mass Relay way in what do they do?
*ME2's ending* to save them who knows how much time in FTL travel from darkspace.
Safe to say that they began *ME2 ending* making their alternate way in 2 years ago to secure a way in. Without spoiling anything- They're using their enemies to do it- that is a liability.

BUT IF they'll just get here in 2 years- WHY BOTHER!?
What are two years for an ageless machine that just go on autopilot and "sleep"?
2 years!?
Why draw attention to yourself? Why risk losing assets(*ME2 ending*[If])? Why create such a liability as *ME2 ending*?
Did the reapers NOT KNOW that they'd be there 2 years later? And that their "speedy way in" would not be finished by then?*ME2 ending*
What the hell? How retarded ARE the reapers? ME2 was pointless? Shep dies in the begining and can die in the end(not spoilers- they're in the trailers[btw- STOP SPOILERS IN MARKETING!!!]) so it could have just as well been a dream sequence.
What the hell writers? 
Someone get them away from the desk!!!

Modifié par desonnac00, 01 avril 2011 - 01:26 .

[flesheatingbull]

cool story, bro!

[Vieuxcruex]

What are you complaining about? The reapers may have had multiple plans.

Plan A was mass effect one, which would have completely crushed the galaxy had it succeeded.
Plan B was mass effect two, whichy would have allowed them another shot at Plan A.
Plan C is Arrival, which we have managed to foil.
Plan D is Mass Effect three, which succeds.

Plans A-C would have allowed them to crush the galaxy, without giving anyone the time to prepare. The Reapers use surprise as one of the largest weapons, and if A had of succeeded, it would have been impossible for anyone to stop them at all. Hence why they went for it.

B was similar, While C wouldn't have been as effective, if done quick enough they could have done the same amount of damage as in A but with more damage done to them,

Plan D is the one taht they didn't want to do, which gives everyone else to prepare for them and prepare anti reaper weaponry.

Now if I was a million years old machine, I'd happily choose A or B every time.

[desonnac00]

Wait... Technically- Arrival "succeeds" (At 50% mind you but still) Why is plan B decades slower than Plan C?
Plan B is not even remotely finished By the time they get here.
And I have to remind everybody that you can play Arrival anytime after Horizon. THINK ABOUT IT!!!
IF THEY ARE ALREADY here- why bother with *ME2 ending*.
The reapers cannot be that stupid!
Oh yeah- btw-

If you play Arrival before *ME2 ending*- the final cutscene makes no sense whatsoever. Think about it.
Think about what we are told in arrival- we only foil the second part of the plan. Remember what the first one was(avoiding spoilers).

For me- ME2 is officialy FUBAR

Modifié par desonnac00, 01 avril 2011 - 07:38 .

[Vieuxcruex]

I wouldn't say that Plan B would take decades. I mean, look how much work had been done on plan B in just two years. Also, remember that Arrival and Plan C actually take place AFTER the end of Plan B. Similar to LOTSB, its allowed to be done earlier, to allow those who have bought it to take advantage of the upgrades and cash you can get from it.

Besides, Plan C wasn't really much of a plan. It was merely something they would have done anyway. I mean, once Plan A had have been completed, Plan C would still have occurred, due to its likely characteristics. I mean, they choose the location of Plan C for a reason, perhaps that was because it connected to the most things. Plan C was just something that was always going to happen, and was simply them doing it anyway.

By us stopping Plan C, they need to find another one to use Plan D, and lets face it. if it wasn't for Shepherd turning up just in time, Plan C would have worked anyway. There was no away that the Reapers could have known that such a short amount of time wouldn be enough to keep Sheppard form stopping plan C.

[Dem_B]

The main thing in Mass Effect 2 was to help Miranda and a team to solve their personal problems.

The authors show us the problem of different races, told us more about them.
But is it main? Confronting the Reapers in the background - "Ah yes, Reapers"

I'm not even going to play in "Arrival" is certainly the Reapers will not arrive in DLC. No thanks.

Why do I need to solve the problem of Miranda in the game and stop the Reapers in the DLC?

In Mass Effect 3 I want to confront the Reapers, and not to collect many allies who are asked to assist them in petty issues, when we all in danger of complete annihilation.

Many people hope that Mass Effect 3 will be very special game, a game which will be a revelation, a game that will be remembered forever and will leave a slight feeling of sadness.
Always after the end of the great stories is sad, because the journey is over, but remains a sense of inspiration, because you were part of story, you have passed this way.

I want to see a clear plot, where everything is thought out and justified.

Great story remains forever in your heart.
I hope that Mass Effect will be a great story.

Modifié par Dem_B, 01 avril 2011 - 08:06 .

[desonnac00]

The thing is- They are not doing ANYTHING to save time- they just don't care.
Plan B is obsolete- it draws attention to them, they lose assets(possibly).
Plan B is not finished by the time Plan C is COMPLETE.
Remember *ME2 ending* ('They'll need a lot more')- B is not finished. Not by a long shot(avoiding spoilers- check vid for ending and listen).
Plan C works anyway- Plan B is obsolete if they are here. They don't need it, It's not integral to their objectives. Plan B, ME2's entire plot= plot devices!
The reapers are not stupid or impatient- there is no excuse for this bull excrement on my desk!

"Similar to LOTSB, its allowed to be done earlier, to allow those who have bought it to take advantage of the upgrades and cash you can get from it."

So they sacrifice story integrity for... 5`000 credits and some resources?
I'm not even gonna comment on that.

You have 2 options in assaulting an enemy camp:
A- You access the area of the camp with ur entire force, swarm the enemy and kill him.
B- You send one legless criple to "run" arround the camp in his wheelchair and shoot flares whilst yelling- THE BRITISH ARE COMING! THE BRITISH ARE COMING!
So he can open up the gates to the camp.

WHICH ONE WOULD YOU PICK?

Btw- as soon as the guy goes into the camp- an alarm is sounded and everyone is on alert- It is in that moment that you main force arrives. Before the enemy is distracted and after they are confused.

[Vieuxcruex]

There is one big difference between B and C. C is impossible to hide. The moment that C goes into effect, EVERYONE starts preparing to counter it.

B is far far far more stealthy. C proves to the enemy that you exist. With B, the only people who know you exist are believed to be crazy, by the time that B proves that they were right, its impossible to defend against. Remember, Plan A was ultimately defeated, because Shepherd and CO knew that Plan A was coming. This meant that there were defences in place to stop Plan A in its tracks. Even then, Plan A almost completely destroyed those defenses and its target.

The only reason why that Plan A was stopped, was because Shepherd was there. Plan A still managed to cause destruction that hasn't yet been fixed. Plan B, without the warning they received with Plan A would have completely smashed them aside. Especially considering the sheer amount of crap that was needed before they stood any chance against Plan B. Plan B wasn't a waste of time.

Think about it, they took the one guy that was able to rally them against them, and killed him. Plan B should have succeeded. Plan B would have succeeded, if it wasn't for the Actions of Cerebus. How could have the reapers predicted that Lazarus would have even been attempted,. let alone succeeded. Remember, Lazarus was considered to be impossible.

Plan B almost succeeded several dozen times. Plus, who is to say that Plan B wasn't a distraction. Remember, you spend so much time preparing to fight against Plan B, that Plan C comes within less then half an hour of success. HALF AN HOUR. If it wasn't for Plan B, shepherd and company could have knew about it months earlier, or even two years.

Not to mention they could have prevented certain rogue factors that almost caused Plan C to succeed from ever happening. Remember, Plan C left so little time to react, that shepherd wasn't even able to call in backup. Heck, if it wasn't for the first part of Plan C, how you find out about it, Plan C would have worked.

Not Almost worked. WOULD HAVE. The only reason why Plan C failed, was because Mr H called you in. Plan C almost succeeded, Plan B should have Succeeded. Heck, the protherians might not have even defeated Plan A. Shepherd and teams could have been the first people in millions of years to stop ANY of their plans.

You said it yourself. The Reapers don't care. We can kill as many geth, as many Collectors, as many of Plan C's pawns as you want, but the reapers just wont care. They don't care about their pawns. They could sacrifice millons of similar beings and creatures, if not billons, without affecting their plans. Becuase the moment a single plan works, they replace them in an instant.

It takes but a single success to completely undo any damage that shepherd and company can do.

Modifié par Vieuxcruex, 01 avril 2011 - 08:11 .

[AdmiralCheez]

The C[spoiler]s were invasion prep--gather intelligence, find a suitable candidate for "ascension," run tests, begin construction if possible... By defeating them, you slow [you know who] down and take away a valuable resource.

ME1, ME2, and Arrival are all efforts to delay the inevitable so we can give ourselves a fighting chance.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 01 avril 2011 - 08:24 .

[Phategod1]

Vieuxcruex wrote...

What are you complaining about? The reapers may have had multiple plans.

Plan A was mass effect one, which would have completely crushed the galaxy had it succeeded.
Plan B was mass effect two, whichy would have allowed them another shot at Plan A.
Plan C is Arrival, which we have managed to foil.
Plan D is Mass Effect three, which succeds.

Plans A-C would have allowed them to crush the galaxy, without giving anyone the time to prepare. The Reapers use surprise as one of the largest weapons, and if A had of succeeded, it would have been impossible for anyone to stop them at all. Hence why they went for it.

B was similar, While C wouldn't have been as effective, if done quick enough they could have done the same amount of damage as in A but with more damage done to them,

Plan D is the one taht they didn't want to do, which gives everyone else to prepare for them and prepare anti reaper weaponry.

Now if I was a million years old machine, I'd happily choose A or B every time.

This I think it was too irrational This guy figured it out in the 1st response post.

[Kreid]

OP, plan B is a part of the cycle, they have to do it regardless of the invasion, it's not even a conquering plan it's apart of the "schedule" they have to fulfill, they start after they find the correct species to get it done, thanks to Shepard's they found said species even before arriving.

Think about it this way, they didn't success at plan A, but they found a little bit piece of important info, so they mobilized their "cover agents" to start speeding up the procces, to have half the work done when they arrived.

[Irrepressible]

Vieuxcruex wrote...

There is one big difference between B and C. C is impossible to hide. The moment that C goes into effect, EVERYONE starts preparing to counter it.

B is far far far more stealthy. C proves to the enemy that you exist. With B, the only people who know you exist are believed to be crazy, by the time that B proves that they were right, its impossible to defend against. Remember, Plan A was ultimately defeated, because Shepherd and CO knew that Plan A was coming. This meant that there were defences in place to stop Plan A in its tracks. Even then, Plan A almost completely destroyed those defenses and its target.

The only reason why that Plan A was stopped, was because Shepherd was there. Plan A still managed to cause destruction that hasn't yet been fixed. Plan B, without the warning they received with Plan A would have completely smashed them aside. Especially considering the sheer amount of crap that was needed before they stood any chance against Plan B. Plan B wasn't a waste of time.

Think about it, they took the one guy that was able to rally them against them, and killed him. Plan B should have succeeded. Plan B would have succeeded, if it wasn't for the Actions of Cerebus. How could have the reapers predicted that Lazarus would have even been attempted,. let alone succeeded. Remember, Lazarus was considered to be impossible.

Plan B almost succeeded several dozen times. Plus, who is to say that Plan B wasn't a distraction. Remember, you spend so much time preparing to fight against Plan B, that Plan C comes within less then half an hour of success. HALF AN HOUR. If it wasn't for Plan B, shepherd and company could have knew about it months earlier, or even two years.

Not to mention they could have prevented certain rogue factors that almost caused Plan C to succeed from ever happening. Remember, Plan C left so little time to react, that shepherd wasn't even able to call in backup. Heck, if it wasn't for the first part of Plan C, how you find out about it, Plan C would have worked.

Not Almost worked. WOULD HAVE. The only reason why Plan C failed, was because Mr H called you in. Plan C almost succeeded, Plan B should have Succeeded. Heck, the protherians might not have even defeated Plan A. Shepherd and teams could have been the first people in millions of years to stop ANY of their plans.

You said it yourself. The Reapers don't care. We can kill as many geth, as many Collectors, as many of Plan C's pawns as you want, but the reapers just wont care. They don't care about their pawns. They could sacrifice millons of similar beings and creatures, if not billons, without affecting their plans. Becuase the moment a single plan works, they replace them in an instant.

It takes but a single success to completely undo any damage that shepherd and company can do.

Agree with this. Though there is potentially another angle on Plan B. An angle which takes into account a potential reason why the Reapers do what they do... for survival. The Reapers are essentially machines, and machines generally require power, something which may not be unlimited. The Reapers harvesting every 50k years after allowing civilisations to become advanced enough could be out of necessity rather than choice, in that sense because they are behind schedule after the events of ME1, the events of ME2 could be an act of desperation in order to strengthen themselves knowing that travelling to the Milky Way the hard way will drain their power considerably.

[desonnac00]

Ok, ok... I get your arguments, but I don't think I'm phrasing mine right.
1- B is more stealthy?- Kidnapping thousands of colonist doesn't seem very stealthy- It's what triggered project Lazarus= fail.
2- Let's assume the cannon is- Arrival is (storywise) after ME2 ending.- The reapers are way out there in dark space when they BEGIN their journey to Milky way. There get here really, really, really quickly.
Plan B is basically - make somethin' big so we can get in and start killin'
Plan C is- just get there ourselves and start killin stuff.
Their only aim is to get there- they don't need stealth- They're sucking Reapers. What do they have to fear? To take Sovereign it took a combined CItadel Fleet- what r they gonna do to ALL the reapers?
Why would they set into motion plan B when it's just a roundabout route to their goal, if they launch plan C- they get there sooner; they ALL get there- no frak-up possible CUZ THEY'RE THE REAPERS.
Why would they care if they prove their existence? If all the Reapers are there- it doesn't matter anymore. They only care of the organics know BEFORE the invasion.
Which they do(unless the writers keep drinking cheap whiskey) thanks to plan B.
Again- the only arguments pro Plan B is to save themselves the long. long. long. long journey from dark space via FTL.
But Arrival negates that completely.
Why would you give your enemy:
1-time
2-information
3-weapons and resources
4-PROOF OF YOUR EXISTENCE
5-TIME
They aren't saving time with B- they are wasting it. It makes no sense!

[Bamboozalist]

While the Human Reaper as a whole doesn't make a lot of sense...We're never told why they're making it specifically beyond them needing to "find another way" it could be they were making it as a back up in case their invasion failed and they all died to continue their race since it was "safe" beyond the Omega-4 relay.

As for being obsolete - ME2 will only be obsolete if the ME2 squad is not a large part of ME3 solely because that was what 90% of ME2 was about, getting us to care about the characters. The collector's stuff was just there to get the squad building started. ME2 didn't really need to advance the Reaper invasion since we knew they were coming since the end of ME1 when Shepard uses his/her magical powers of knowledge to tell us that. So we do what in ME2? Delay them again? Yeah cause it's not like we just spent a whole game doing that or anything, wait I have a great idea...let's rehash the story of the first game and just paste it into the 2nd game with new locations.

Sprawling "Epic" Trilogy Structure -

Part 1 establishes the premise and gets us hooked on the plot doesn't focus too heavily on the characters beyond how they start out and what draws them into the conflict.
Part 2 gets us emotionally invested in the characters for Part 3 while not advancing the plot that much, so that the entire trilogy isn't the same story retold 3 times and it feels fresh again when you get to part 3.
Part 3 focuses on the plot heavily similar to part 1 but we are now more emotionally invested in the characters and we get to see a resolution to their character arcs.

[Bamboozalist]

desonnac00 wrote...

The reapers are way out there in dark space when they BEGIN their journey to Milky way. There get here really, really, really quickly.

1) The ending shot of ME2 is for cinematic purposes and should not used as an accurate judge of distance, the whole Reaper's decending on the galaxy shot doesn't work when you can't see the majority of the galaxy.
2) Realistically the Reapers probably put 2+ plans into action once plan A failed and left for the Milky Way the second plan A failed
3) People don't regularly explore intergalactic space especially with uncharted worlds still existing in the galaxy, the Reapers probably aren't that far into dark space to save on travel time if plan A ever fails.
4) We don't know what Reaper FTL capabilities are.

[CroGamer002]

Mesina2 wrote...

My theory is that Human Reaper was actually Plan C.

In case something went wrong with Alpha Relay, Reapers will be forced to drain more energy and have to start harvesting Earth while there's a huge danger while they are weaken to get attacked by united multi-species forces.

That's why they were building Human Reaper, it's purpose was to attack Citadel while most of the defense forces were away to attack Reapers on Earth and kill their leaders and cut off communications which would make attack in complete jeopardy and the Cycle would continue with slight delay.

Happy?

Modifié par Mesina2, 01 avril 2011 - 11:15 .

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

How was me2 pointless? No matter what happens me2 seemed like the game that allowed you Too assemble a small army learn more about the reapers and gain a ship that has no ties too the alliance or council thus making you able too pursue galactic salvation in me3. In edition adding more depth and perspective too the ME universe.

[Bamboozalist]

Mesina2 wrote...

My theory is that Human Reaper was actually Plan C.

Hell it probably could have even been plan Q, hell during WW2 there were plans that were there incase the war continued for 20 more years. We might find out all the other crazy nonsensical plans the Reapers came up with "just incase" during ME3. I mean who is to day they don't have 85 back up plans? Especially with all their "You have changed nothing" from Harbinger.

[CroGamer002]

Bamboozalist wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

My theory is that Human Reaper was actually Plan C.

Hell it probably could have even been plan Q, hell during WW2 there were plans that were there incase the war continued for 20 more years. We might find out all the other crazy nonsensical plans the Reapers came up with "just incase" during ME3. I mean who is to day they don't have 85 back up plans? Especially with all their "You have changed nothing" from Harbinger.

Did you even bother to read anything else I wrote?

[Bamboozalist]

Mesina2 wrote...

Did you even bother to read anything else I wrote?

Yes. Did you read anything I wrote?

I was saying that while it could be what you said, it could also be something save for WAY, WAY, WAY down the line, not just a sneak attack suprise reaper. We really don't know what they were using it for, there are many possibilites.

[morrie23]

Problem is nobody knows what the h**** Reaper was for, sure we have nice ideas,conjecture and theory. But as of yet the all powerful BioWare writers have not explained the purpose of the h**** Reaper. Was it a new Vanguard? A science experiment? Something else? This is kinda important to know if we are going to start judging whether Arrival has caused a plot hole.

Modifié par morrie23, 01 avril 2011 - 11:44 .

[Bamboozalist]

morrie23 wrote...

Problem is nobody knows what the h**** Reaper was for, sure we have nice ideas,conjecture and theory. But as of yet the all powerful BioWare writers have not explained the purpose of the h**** Reaper. Was it a new Vanguard? A science experiment? Something else? This is kinda important to know if we are going to start judging whether Arrival has caused a plot hole.

It doesn't really need to be explained. The Reapers are "beyond our comprehension" by them having actions that don't necessarily make sense it makes them more alien and foreign to us. Some times it's good to not spoon feed every detail about your big mysterious death race of intergalactic gods.

[morrie23]

My point was Arrival can't really be judged as causing a plot hole with the information we have, not that I think the purpose of the h**** Reaper should or shouldn't be explained. People like to come up with their own theories, but fact is we have no idea what the purpose of the h**** Reaper was, and if the writers are going with the 'Reapers are unknowable' angle, fine.

Modifié par morrie23, 01 avril 2011 - 11:55 .

[Dem_B]

Bamboozalist wrote...

It doesn't really need to be explained. The Reapers are "beyond our comprehension" by them having actions that don't necessarily make sense it makes them more alien and foreign to us. Some times it's good to not spoon feed every detail about your big mysterious death race of intergalactic gods.

I'm involved in the story, I am interested in the motives and origins of the Reapers. That's why I play Mass Effect, to get an answer.

If I wanted to play a shooter, I would have played in Call of duty

If the motives of the Reapers remain unknown, the story makes no sense.

I don't play in usual game, I am involved in the great story.
If the story does not make sense, if I need to just kill universe villains, I'll be disappointed.

I hope that Mass Effect 3 will be a revelation, the meaning of all story.

[Bamboozalist]

Dem_B wrote...

I'm involved in the story, I am interested in the motives and origins of the Reapers. That's why I play Mass Effect, to get an answer.

If I wanted to play a shooter, I would have played in Call of duty

If the motives of the Reapers remain unknown, the story makes no sense.

I don't play in usual game, I am involved in the great story.
If the story does not make sense, if I need to just kill universe villains, I'll be disappointed.

I hope that Mass Effect 3 will be a revelation, the meaning of all story.

The story would be better if Bioware didn't try to explain it. It wouldn't make the story suddenly not make sense, the story is about Shepard saving the galaxy and that fun 1980s sci-fi feel not a deep look into the motivations of the Reapers. The unknown is one of the most powerful forces in fiction. By explaining the Reapers with motivations that make sense to us they lose the factor of the unknown and become much less a supreme race of unknowable beings and more an understandble advesary that you can equate human traits to which makes them less threatening.

What would you rather face? A serial killer who is killing for no apparent reason who you can't reason with and can't understand or a serial killer who is killing for some sort of logical reason, that while you won't agree with it, you can understand it?

Not everything has to be explained, whatever happened to viewer imagination? And people wonder why things get more and more dumbed down.