117 réponses à ce sujet

[desonnac00]

Mesina2 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

My theory is that Human Reaper was actually Plan C.

In case something went wrong with Alpha Relay, Reapers will be forced to drain more energy and have to start harvesting Earth while there's a huge danger while they are weaken to get attacked by united multi-species forces.

That's why they were building Human Reaper, it's purpose was to attack Citadel while most of the defense forces were away to attack Reapers on Earth and kill their leaders and cut off communications which would make attack in complete jeopardy and the Cycle would continue with slight delay.

Happy?

See, that makes more sense.

As to The HR being there as a plan *insert random letter here* in case the invasion failed to continue their race- i don't buy. 
Phrases like "We are your end" and "We are without a begining, without an end" lead me to deduce that they don't really think they'll fail... at all.
But still. Why set in motion ANY plan for an alternate way in when You could be there in two sucking days?
There is thus far no indication that ANYTHING in the milky way can stop the reaper fleet. I'm pretty sure they know that at this point. So Shep *Arrival climax* and slows them down with an year or two (OR several months)- so what? It took Cerberus with all their free time, resources n stuff 2 whole years to build a frigate! That wasn't even that good- it's needed a major retrofit in the form of upgrades. 
Nothing in the Milky way can produce an Anti-Reaper force in 2-3-4-10 years. when they don't even have any proof or motivation to do so.
Plan B gives them proof=motivation and time to MAYBE do something. Plan C gives them what?
A report from a pyromaniac on a galactic scale who caused the combustion of a celestial body because he though there were monsters in his closet?(avoiding spoilers)
I'd like to think the reapers have at least some strategic planning expertise afte UNTOLD EONS of annihilation of stuff!

[Frybread76]

ME2 will be pointless if you have to build a squad from scratch in ME3, which could happen since all but one of you squaddies can die if you want Shepard to survive. Unless Bioware pulls a DA2 and brings some of your ME2 squad mates back whether they died in ME2 or not.

[Dem_B]

Bamboozalist wrote...

What would you rather face? A serial killer who is killing for no apparent reason who you can't reason with and can't understand or a serial killer who is killing for some sort of logical reason, that while you won't agree with it, you can understand it?

Not everything has to be explained, whatever happened to viewer imagination? And people wonder why things get more and more dumbed down.

You led a good analogy with a serial killer.
I pondered for a moment, maybe you're right, but ...
Imagine the situation.
Serial maniac killed your loved one, he is found, and sentenced to forced medical treatment because he was crazy and had no motive. 
Your loved one is dead, but his killer will live.
Are you satisfied? This is true?
But if he was not crazy, if he had reasonable motives, he will receive his punishment.
You'll know that the killer punished.

We see what we want to see.

But imagine that the Reapers are not serial killers.

All religions talk about life after death, the soul abandons the body, moving to another state of being.
People believe that their life will not end after bodily death. People believe that their soul is immortal.
But nobody can find the material immortality - the bodily immortality.
Therefore, everyone scared to die, nobody knows whether there is in reality a different life.

Perhaps in the distant past Reapers did not wanted to die and have created a way to keep your consciousness in this reality, in the form of an indestructible material form, free of all weakness.
Their body has become the machine, but the consciousness remains the same.
The consciousness of living beings.

What is the meaning of our life?
Accumulate wealth and live happily?
Create a family and raise children?
Prepare your soul to heaven?

We all live in, because we were born and we die because the time has come.
We can not change it.
We all want something else to do, something else to see, but nobody lives forever, and nobody wants to die.

What if the Reapers can show us a different life.
Life free of all weakness.

[88mphSlayer]

well people hated the plot of ME2 anyways so isn't this a good thing?

[desonnac00]

Viewer imagination is as fine and dandy, but this defies logic. They leave a lot of details and info to vagueness or oblivion altogether and what they DO give us just doesn't make sense!
Arrival renders ME2 insubstantial unless the entire ME2 main plot was a Reaper plan to waste Shepard's time chasing down what he though was the actual plan of the Reapers.
(Plot still suck mind you- sucks) This makes sense and pretty much fixes some of the major plotholes.
But somehow I DOUBT THAT. All we've seen so far is the writers pulling a "Lea is your sister" srap- Making chit up as they go along. I at least enjoyed ME2 thus far BUT THIS CHIT HAS GOT TO STOP!
Is George Lucas head writer or are they just making a mess on paper by getting a monkey drunk?

[SNascimento]

There is no need to be one or another.
.
My theory is that just after Sovereign is destroyed that last scene in ME2 takes place, where you see the reapers awaking and starting theirs move towards our galaxy. Meanwhile, the collectors under Harbinger control start to collect humans to advance the reapers plans somehow.

[AdmiralCheez]

So there was no point in stopping thousands of human colonists from being kidnapped and liquefied? HMMMM....

[Valmarn]

Dem_B wrote...

Bamboozalist wrote...

It doesn't really need to be explained. The Reapers are "beyond our comprehension" by them having actions that don't necessarily make sense it makes them more alien and foreign to us. Some times it's good to not spoon feed every detail about your big mysterious death race of intergalactic gods.

I'm involved in the story, I am interested in the motives and origins of the Reapers. That's why I play Mass Effect, to get an answer.

If I wanted to play a shooter, I would have played in Call of duty

If the motives of the Reapers remain unknown, the story makes no sense.

I don't play in usual game, I am involved in the great story.
If the story does not make sense, if I need to just kill universe villains, I'll be disappointed.

I hope that Mass Effect 3 will be a revelation, the meaning of all story.

Same here. If the devs don't have a damned good explanation prepared, I will be gravely disappointed.

The Reapers created the Citadel and the Mass Relays so that civilazations will develop along the paths that they desire, but to what end? They come back from Dark Space every 50,000 yearsand wipe the galaxy clean again, killing or enslaving its inhabitants...but to what end?

Much like I'm sure you feel, I don't care what Vigil said about our survival depending on killing them, and not  on understanding them. Shepard may not care how little sense it makes, but I, the player, do care.

[desonnac00]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

So there was no point in stopping thousands of human colonists from being kidnapped and liquefied? HMMMM....

No, actually- there was no point in kidnapping them in the first place. read before you write

[camcon2100]

The plan using the citadel is a focused attack. They kill off the major leaders than the civilization is unfocused. If they have to travel through dark space people know their coming and can organize some sort of counter attack. This is the way i see it while its not that big of a deal they need to travel through dark space but.......they loose that edge of surprise and cannot have a very focused and brutal attack.

[AdmiralCheez]

desonnac00 wrote...

No, actually- there was no point in kidnapping them in the first place. read before you write.

Yes there was: find a suitable species for uplift and make a [thing] out of them.  Looking at the timing of Arrival, the [thing] would still be under construction when the other [things] showed up.  Like I said, invasion prep.

[Ice Cold J]

In my opinion, they obviously need organic life for SOMETHING (fuel?)

For this reason and because of the Prothean's "victory," The Reapers apparently are behind schedule, so they have to act now to harvest organic life for whatever purpose they require.

[samurai crusade]

No Arrival did not subvert the plot of ME2. and NO ME2 is not pointless.
What do we know about the Reapers? that they harvest galactic life roughly every 50,000 years
What do we know about the previous cultures they've reaped? Next to nothing!
The reapers want to do it quitley.
Plan A - the Citadel. Allows an immediete attack on the galactic heart, much of the galactic forces, and gains access to galactic census data so they can hunt down the rest of the species.
Plan B - was to create a new reaper (or is that plan B...it could be the ultimate outcome of this 50,000year cycle? reguardless... the reapers intended to make a human reaper but it's clear that they needed to reach Earth(collector ship mission) eventually in order to gain the population needed to finish creation).
Plan C - the Reapers travel through space to reach the Alpha Relay... which allows for further relay travel. Ideally they would eather attack the Citadel or Earth so that they could finish Plan A or B. (But the new reaper is dead. and most likely the entire reaper fleet is on its way. So the Citadel just provides data they need).

They reapers want to take everything out... and leave very little evidence. Everything is done quietly and efficiently that's why they don't just rush in and announce themselves. They have to isolate star systems. Destroy defenses. Divide and conquere.

[Irrepressible]

^ That, with the exception that i'd argue that Plan B wasn't really a plan at all. The Citadel was Plan A, Alpha Relay is Plan B. Citadel being Plan A due to the fact that that is where the galactic government sit, taking the Citadel would plunge all lifeforms into disarray allowing the Reapers job to be much easier.

Whereas the main events of ME2 are more regarding how they survive rather than plan of attack. It's essentially what would of been happening everywhere had Plan A succeeded, but because it didn't they've had to attempt to bolster their forces via their pawns instead of their usual means.

I'm really not seeing how Arrival subverts the plot in any way, a whole number of responses in this thread explain possible theories in a pretty simple way. Just because something isn't explained thoroughly to you at mid point (well 2/3 point) does not mean it's lazy and a plothole, else a whole lot of literature and films would be deemed as crap.

Modifié par Irrepressible, 01 avril 2011 - 02:51 .

[Uszi]

Vieuxcruex wrote...

What are you complaining about? The reapers may have had multiple plans.

Plan A was mass effect one, which would have completely crushed the galaxy had it succeeded.
Plan B was mass effect two, whichy would have allowed them another shot at Plan A.
Plan C is Arrival, which we have managed to foil.
Plan D is Mass Effect three, which succeds.

Plans A-C would have allowed them to crush the galaxy, without giving anyone the time to prepare. The Reapers use surprise as one of the largest weapons, and if A had of succeeded, it would have been impossible for anyone to stop them at all. Hence why they went for it.

B was similar, While C wouldn't have been as effective, if done quick enough they could have done the same amount of damage as in A but with more damage done to them,

Plan D is the one taht they didn't want to do, which gives everyone else to prepare for them and prepare anti reaper weaponry.

Now if I was a million years old machine, I'd happily choose A or B every time.

Meh, but in reality Plan D is Plan C.  All we did was delay the same plan.

The biggest problem I have with Arrival, as others have pointed out, is that you can start it after Horizon.  People have tried to argue that it's supposed to take place after the SM, but it unlocks after Arrival.

This means that the Reapers could actually completely Plan C/D before the complete Plan B, and since Plan B was kind of retarded in light of how easy Plan C/D is, why on earth did they waste their time with Plan B?

I have to agree with the OP. 
The only reason I wouldn't complain a lot is that DLC is value added content, and I don't take it very seriously.

[Whatever42]

Well, plan B was clearly not plan B but another plan to another problem. A lot of people have argued this before Arrival, though. That doesn't subvert the plot per se but it does change my perception of the plot. We still want to stop the Collectors. It is still a Reaper plan to turn humanity into Reapers. It will obviously play a major role in ME3.

We just incorrectly thought it was a plan for the Reapers to return to the galaxy. It apparently is either just Reapers doing what Reapers do - reaping - or there is some other purpose which we have not yet divined.

[Vena_86]

Even if it does make sense, giving the Reapers so many options to come back kinda kills the epicness of ME1. In the end you fight one Reaper, barely win and you prevent the rest from comming back which would be an unstopable invasion and mean death to all advance live in the galaxy. Now that it was just plan A all along...meh

[Bamboozalist]

Valmarn wrote...

Same here. If the devs don't have a damned good explanation prepared, I will be gravely disappointed.

The Reapers created the Citadel and the Mass Relays so that civilazations will develop along the paths that they desire, but to what end? They come back from Dark Space every 50,000 yearsand wipe the galaxy clean again, killing or enslaving its inhabitants...but to what end?

Much like I'm sure you feel, I don't care what Vigil said about our survival depending on killing them, and not  on understanding them. Shepard may not care how little sense it makes, but I, the player, do care.

And you've described the ultimate problem with explaining "unknowable" beings, the unknown works because of threads like this, player's can use their imagination to come up with what they want it fit's their expectations. When someone gives you a definition it may be "damn good" to someone else but to you it might suck. The phrase "less is more" exists for a reason.

[JayhartRIC]

I just had a thought. In ME2, we saw what the Reapers were doing to the colonists. I think this happens every cycle. It's not a plan C. It's more like B1. Technically ME1 was plan B cause usually they all pop up at the Citadel unopposed. The reason they only worry about technologically advanced species is because they are the easiest to find. They aren't interested in exploring every single species on every single planet in the galaxy.

[Lisa_H]

Creid-X wrote...

OP, plan B is a part of the cycle, they have to do it regardless of the invasion, it's not even a conquering plan it's apart of the "schedule" they have to fulfill, they start after they find the correct species to get it done, thanks to Shepard's they found said species even before arriving.

Think about it this way, they didn't success at plan A, but they found a little bit piece of important info, so they mobilized their "cover agents" to start speeding up the procces, to have half the work done when they arrived.

I agee with this. A new reaper was probably already planned for. Since they knew what species they wanted to use, why not get started.

[Valmarn]

Bamboozalist wrote...

Valmarn wrote...

Same here. If the devs don't have a damned good explanation prepared, I will be gravely disappointed.

The Reapers created the Citadel and the Mass Relays so that civilazations will develop along the paths that they desire, but to what end? They come back from Dark Space every 50,000 yearsand wipe the galaxy clean again, killing or enslaving its inhabitants...but to what end?

Much like I'm sure you feel, I don't care what Vigil said about our survival depending on killing them, and not  on understanding them. Shepard may not care how little sense it makes, but I, the player, do care.

And you've described the ultimate problem with explaining "unknowable" beings, the unknown works because of threads like this, player's can use their imagination to come up with what they want it fit's their expectations. When someone gives you a definition it may be "damn good" to someone else but to you it might suck. The phrase "less is more" exists for a reason.

And this is not such an instance, in my less-than-humble opinion.

Fictional or not, unless they have a rational explanation prepared for Mass Effect 3, it is reckless, cheap, and downright lazy to use these "unknowable" beings as an excuse to come up with complete and utter nonsense that is, seemingly, unexplainable. .

Calling them "unknowable" is a cop-out, plain and simple.

As if that isn't bad enough, they find it necessary to constantly remind the player of how mysterious the Reapers' motives are, and how they are "beyond our comprehension," as though repeating those sentiments enough times will convince us to shut up and play the game.

TBH, any explanation that is moderately rational would suffice.

Hell, I'm going to go out on a limb, and say that nearly any explanation that's better than what we've already heard wouldn't suck.

On second though, there's enough room for improvement over what we've already heard that anything better wouldn't necessarily be rational or "unsucky."

[Bamboozalist]

Valmarn wrote...

And this is not such an instance, in my less-than-humble opinion.

Fictional or not, unless they have a rational explanation prepared for Mass Effect 3, it is reckless, cheap, and downright lazy to use these "unknowable" beings as an excuse to come up with complete and utter nonsense that is, seemingly, unexplainable. .

Calling them "unknowable" is a cop-out, plain and simple.

As if that isn't bad enough, they find it necessary to constantly remind the player of how mysterious the Reapers' motives are, and how they are "beyond our comprehension," as though repeating those sentiments enough times will convince us to shut up and play the game.

TBH, any explanation that is moderately rational would suffice.

Hell, I'm going to go out on a limb, and say that nearly any explanation that's better than what we've already heard wouldn't suck.

On second though, there's enough room for improvement over what we've already heard that anything better wouldn't necessarily be rational or "unsucky."

See I don't agree their actions making no sense and them constantly reminding us enforces this point combined with the fact that we really don't need an explanation. The main point now is stopping the Reapers and tying up all the subplot's and choices we've made over the past two games, bothing to explain the Reapers isn't really necessary in all that.

I mean the Reapers could do what they do because their giant cheese monster God tells them to. Or maybe there is a universe wide civilization of good Reapers and these are the rejects who are mentally unstable and retarded. It doesn't really need to be explained because every explination will remove the divine aspect of the Reapers.

[Inutaisho7996]

When was it ever stated that the human reaper was going to replace Sovereign as the vanguard of the reapers? For all we know, leaving after Sovereign failed was plan B. Maybe the collectors were getting a head start on the harvesting of organics to make a new reaper while the reapers were on their way to finish the job.

Also, the energy it would take to fly millions of kilometers for two years straight would be energy better spent killing organics. The reapers wanted to save their energy, make a surprise attack on the Citadel, cut organics off from the mass relays, and spend a couple centuries killing organics system by system. Now, the organics can move about the galaxy and fight back in muchn larger groups than the reapers have ever met. Sure the reapers might still succeed, but now, they might actually take casualties. As far as we know, it takes millions of organics to make one reaper every 50,000 years. How many would it take to replace even 10 reapers?

Modifié par Inutaisho7996, 01 avril 2011 - 07:55 .

[Valmarn]

JayhartRIC wrote...

I just had a thought. In ME2, we saw what the Reapers were doing to the colonists. I think this happens every cycle. It's not a plan C. It's more like B1. Technically ME1 was plan B cause usually they all pop up at the Citadel unopposed. The reason they only worry about technologically advanced species is because they are the easiest to find. They aren't interested in exploring every single species on every single planet in the galaxy.

Considering how incomplete their project was, and considering how many Reapers there seem to be, they would likely bleed the galaxy dry before they even got close to their goal. Plus, if it happened every cycle, where does that leave the Protheans? EDI hypothesized that they likely tried, but were unsuccessful.

Something worth noting is that humans are far from the most advanced species in the galaxy.

[Valmarn]

Bamboozalist wrote...

Valmarn wrote...

And this is not such an instance, in my less-than-humble opinion.

Fictional or not, unless they have a rational explanation prepared for Mass Effect 3, it is reckless, cheap, and downright lazy to use these "unknowable" beings as an excuse to come up with complete and utter nonsense that is, seemingly, unexplainable. .

Calling them "unknowable" is a cop-out, plain and simple.

As if that isn't bad enough, they find it necessary to constantly remind the player of how mysterious the Reapers' motives are, and how they are "beyond our comprehension," as though repeating those sentiments enough times will convince us to shut up and play the game.

TBH, any explanation that is moderately rational would suffice.

Hell, I'm going to go out on a limb, and say that nearly any explanation that's better than what we've already heard wouldn't suck.

On second though, there's enough room for improvement over what we've already heard that anything better wouldn't necessarily be rational or "unsucky."

See I don't agree their actions making no sense and them constantly reminding us enforces this point combined with the fact that we really don't need an explanation. The main point now is stopping the Reapers and tying up all the subplot's and choices we've made over the past two games, bothing to explain the Reapers isn't really necessary in all that.

No, we don't need an explanation, but it would certainly make their BS storyline a lot easier to swallow. Not everyone's standards in storytelling are at rock-bottom.

You don't say? Knowing the Reapers' true motives is not necessary? Hmm...perhaps not presently. I guess we'll have to see when Mass Effect 3 is released.

As I said, it's a total a cop-out; it's a just a lame excuse for the writers to make up nonsense that they couldn't, in a million years, hope to explain.

I mean the Reapers could do what they do because their giant cheese monster God tells them to. Or maybe there is a universe wide civilization of good Reapers and these are the rejects who are mentally unstable and retarded. It doesn't really need to be explained because every explination will remove the divine aspect of the Reapers.

Are you, at all, familiar with the suspension of disbelief?
If not, that would be one thing you have in common with the writers at BioWare.

Clearly, the Reapers require the inhabitants of the galaxy, for one reason or another. So, sorry to break it to you, but their divine aspect is already nullified.

Again, you make not require an explanation, but some of us hold storytelling to a higher standard.