Aller au contenu

Photo

A heads up to the writer(s) at Bioware: stop creating plot holes.


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
124 réponses à ce sujet

#1
Eain

Eain
  • Members
  • 1 501 messages
Let me start this by saying that Mass Effect so far is, to me, one of my favourite game series. I love it and I can't wait for ME3. Or well, I can. Because I have to. :P

At any rate, most of the criticism ME catches is gameplay related. People think its either too shooty or too RPG'ish, depending on what they were expecting going on. More of the former than the latter, admittedly. But that's not my gripe. I think the game's a very good mix of both. Arrival does make me fear for the RPG nature of ME3, that I will have to admit, but whatever complaints I have about the gameplay honestly pale in comparison to my gripes about the story.

I think it is really important that whoever writes this (Drew Karpyshyn I assume) understands what's going on here, because right now I don't think anybody really understood the storytelling ramifications of ME1 and the new Arrival DLC combined. Had they, I am convinced that this DLC would not have been published until the story had been polished. Because for a DLC that's supposed to bridge two games, all it seems to do is instead create a massive plot hole.

Let me tell you what I think is currently going on in the Mass Effect universe. Writing this from a female perspective since that's what my Shepard is, and Bioware insists that its a story about our Shepard and not about theirs. So in a nutshell:

Commander Shepard gets sent on a mission to prevent the inevitable return of an extragalactic sentient machine race from destroying all life in the galaxy. In the first game, she discovers that there is something called the Conduit that she has to find because it will bring the Reapers back. Turns out that the Conduit itself won't, it's simply a backdoor to the citadel that the game's main antagonist, Saren, only needs because he was stupid enough to risk his Spectre status in search for it. If he hadn't searched for it, he wouldn't have needed it, since the Conduit itself did not help any in the single thing that Sovereign needed Saren for: closing the citadel arms.

This is the big plot hole of ME1. The imminent Reaper invasion actually has very little to do with the Conduit itself, which was merely a backdoor device for the Protheans to sabotage the Citadel's relay function after the invasion had occurred. The Reapers could've taken their sweet time to search for, and destroy, the Conduit AFTER their invasion. All that was needed for the invasion itself to occur was for Sovereign to connect manually with the Citadel and activate its relay mechanisms. And all he needed Saren for was to provide him with... well. Come to think of it, I don't even know. Because if Saren hadn't died in that fight with Shepard, Sovereign's shields would never have fallen, and he wouldn't have died at all. He was invincible to the combined might of the citadel fleets right until Robo-Saren dropped.

But, I accepted ME1 as simply being a cool concept sloppily executed. There's too many holes in the story itself to actually care about any invidual one. So in a sense, I just accept ME1's events as "having happened" outside of the game itself, having them serve as a general backdrop to ME2. There was a Reaper invasion which was halted at the very last minute, and now it's up to Shepard to continue to safeguard the galaxy.

And this was a role that ME2 fulfilled fine. The writing seemed to be better because while ME1 was riddled with plot holes, ME2 didn't seem to have many of them, if any at all. You can sort of wonder why they were building the whole Terminator Reaper in the first place, but there's no real reason to count that as a plot hole since no actual justification for it was given and therefore there are no justifications to fail as such. All we're left with is that it happened and strangely enough, for storytelling purposes, sometimes that is enough. Sometimes it is better to not explain anything, rather than explain it in detail. Leave it to the imagination of the audience.

But now Arrival shows up and completely removes whatever remaining justification there was for the Conduit plot in Mass Effect 1. Because the only reason it had to exist was for the sake of the Citadel being the backbone of the whole Reaper invasion plan. As soon as there is more than one Relay through which to enter the universe, the point of sabotaging any single one is removed. Furthermore, the Reapers' approach at trying to reactivate the Citadel now seems amateurish and clumsy, since why not just do that AFTER the invasion that Arrival revealed was still inevitable? Why send Sovereign into organic space, risk discovery, and risk having your entire plan backfire? There was no need to reactivate the Citadel, there was no need to look for the Conduit, there was no need for Shepard to get alerted to anything, because guess what, there was another invasion point all along.

But it doesn't stop there. Suddenly the Collectors have turned into a massive waste of time aswell. Why spend two years harvesting people to make a new Reaper, when the Reapers themselves could've harvested a thousand times as many people, a thousand times faster. They would've had their new Reaper regardless, and now the sudden unexplained presence of the Terminator Reaper has been reduced to being an entirely arbitrary waste of time for a race of slave-Protheans whose only purpose has now been reduced to being a story-filler.

Whatever was good and solid about the ME2 story has now been reduced to nothing. And that is not an exaggeration, since with storytelling there is no middle road. Either your story adds up, or it doesn't. ME2 felt like a solid interlude between a beginning and an end. There was no imminent invasion danger, there was only the threat of the Collectors slowly building up a Reaper inside citadel space, presumably to, well... you think of it. That's the beauty of leaving it to the audience's imagination.

So to conclude this topic, I guess all I can say to Bioware is good job removing the only remaining justification for the Conduit plot in ME1, aswell as reducing the Collectors in ME2 to an arbitrary waste of time. I really doubt that you've given the story content of Arrival a lot of thought, and if it turns out that you have, I will have to honestly admit that I am sort of worried about ME3's story. The best thing you can do at this point is just retcon the whole Arrival DLC and admit to not having thought it through so well, but that would mean people feeling ripped off at having bought it. So that's what the choice seems to be between. Integrity and income.

And I wish it would speak for itself that you'd choose the former.

Modifié par Eain, 01 avril 2011 - 10:42 .


#2
Silmane

Silmane
  • Members
  • 822 messages
"Commander Shepard gets sent on a mission to prevent the inevitable return of an extragalactic sentient machine race from destroying all life in the galaxy. In the first game, she discovers that there is something called the Conduit that she has to find because it will bring the Reapers back. Turns out that the Conduit itself won't, it's simply a backdoor to the citadel that the game's main antagonist, Saren, only needs because he was stupid enough to risk his Spectre status in search for it. If he hadn't searched for it, he wouldn't have needed it, since the Conduit itself did not help any in the single thing that Sovereign needed Saren for: closing the citadel arms. "

This is all sorts of wrong. Sovereign needed a indoctrinated person to get into the Citadel to activate the relay because the Protheans, 50,000 years prior, sabotaged the Keepers. The Conduit was the only way to get in without attracting attention. This would have worked, but Shepard was on his ass.

How is this a plot hole? I don't get it. You even point out what I just mentioned and you go on to say the Reapers could've just found the conduit and destroyed it? For what reason?

How is the Conduit the backbone of the Reaper invasion plan when the Protheans were the one who built it? Is this a april fools post? No offense, really.

They didn't use Alpha Relay to start the invasion because it's not the element of surprise. The current space faring races have ships guarding a lot of relays and they could alert everyone of the Reapers. Using the Citadel first is a tried and true method that was disrupted by the Protheans. When the Reapers realized Sovereign was gone, they activated and started moving to Alpha Relay.

The Human Reaper was an experiment to see if Humans were able to be made into a Reaper. The Human-Reaper activating and attacking Shepard is proof that Humans are able to be made into Reapers. The Collectors served their purpose. Human Reaper wasn't a new vanguard for letting them invade, it was a test subject. 

Further, as far as the Collectors being just story filler, Bioware didn't have to make them Prothean at all. It was a decent twist to have them ex-Prothean as a way of saying "well, you aren't fit to be a Reaper, so we'll use you for something else." Sad fate for a race that was already damned from the beginning. 

Modifié par Silmane, 01 avril 2011 - 11:08 .


#3
Anacronian Stryx

Anacronian Stryx
  • Members
  • 3 134 messages
Mass Effect 1 starts just after Sovereign tried to contact the Citadel.

So what does Sovereign do now?

Well since the citadel worked perfectly last time he activated it to harvest the Protheons it fails to reason that something must have happened between those two event's - Now he knows that none of the younger races have found out anything concerning the citadel trap so the logic conclusion is that the Protheon did something to create this situation.

So Protheon artifacts suddenly gets very interesting to Sovereign..oh the humans have found a Protheon Beacon on Eden Prime, Better send Saren there to have a look at it.

Eden Prime happens(Saren and though him Sovereign merges with the Beacon).

Ahh this Beacon mentions something about the Conduit - This is unknown to me, Is it some sort of Protheon trap set to go of when i call my brethren from dark space?..some last act of defiance?
That does it, we must find out what this beacon is before taking any further action towards the citadel.

There are almost no plot holes in ME 1.

#4
Tezlaa

Tezlaa
  • Members
  • 335 messages
All of the above posts clarify what I was saying, so heres a summary.

They arent plot holes when you remember that Commander Shepard is constantly on the Reapers tail, performing ninja moves to save all life within the galaxy:ph34r:

Modifié par Tezlaa, 01 avril 2011 - 11:05 .


#5
InvaderErl

InvaderErl
  • Members
  • 3 884 messages

Anacronian Stryx wrote...


There are almost no plot holes in ME 1.


There are a couple, they're just not related to Saren/Sovereign's plan.

Two of the biggest off the top of my head are Shepard at no point prior to Iilos actually discovers that Saren is planning to attack the Citadel yet all of a sudden he knows this.

Another is Tali arrives with evidence of Saren and Benezia congratulating one another over Eden Prime several days before the attack on Eden Prime has even happened.

There are a few other such gaffes but those stuck out to me.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 01 avril 2011 - 11:18 .


#6
Anacronian Stryx

Anacronian Stryx
  • Members
  • 3 134 messages
[quote]InvaderErl wrote...

[quote]Anacronian Stryx wrote...


There are almost no plot holes in ME 1.
[/quote]

There are a couple, they're just not related to Saren/Sovereign's plan.

Two of the biggest off the top of my head are Shepard at no point prior to Iilos actually discovers that that Saren is planning to attack the Citadel yet all of a sudden he knows this.

[/quote]

[quote from Saren on Virmire] ..The citadel is the key to their success and now you would stop this...

[quote]
Another is Tali arrives with evidence of Saren and Benezia congratulating one another over Eden Prime several days before the attack on Eden Prime has even happened.

There are a few other minor one's but those stuck out to me.

[/quote]

Could you elaborate on this?

Modifié par Anacronian Stryx, 01 avril 2011 - 11:19 .


#7
Silmane

Silmane
  • Members
  • 822 messages
[quote]Anacronian Stryx wrote...

[quote]InvaderErl wrote...

[quote]Anacronian Stryx wrote...


There are almost no plot holes in ME 1.
[/quote]

There are a couple, they're just not related to Saren/Sovereign's plan.

Two of the biggest off the top of my head are Shepard at no point prior to Iilos actually discovers that that Saren is planning to attack the Citadel yet all of a sudden he knows this.

[/quote]

[quote from Saren on Virmire] ..The citadel is the key to their success and now you would stop this...

[quote]
Another is Tali arrives with evidence of Saren and Benezia congratulating one another over Eden Prime several days before the attack on Eden Prime has even happened.

There are a few other minor one's but those stuck out to me.

[/quote]

Could you elaborate on this?[/quote]

Yeah, the Tali thing doesn't make sense to me, either. Need some explainin here.

#8
InvaderErl

InvaderErl
  • Members
  • 3 884 messages
[quote]Anacronian Stryx wrote...


[quote from Saren on Virmire] ..The citadel is the key to their success and now you would stop this...[/quote]


He does not say this.

He says the Conduit is the key to their return, he never mentions the Citadel. When I first noticed this on my next playthrough I listened for when Shepard might have learned this, and there's no point where its even suggested Saren is after the citadel.

[quote]Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Could you elaborate on this?[/quote]

Tali finds evidence of Saren's involvement in the attack on Eden Prime, gets chased to the Citadel and contacts Fist looking for help all BEFORE the attack on Eden Prime even happens. There are several references to the fact that she arrived several days prior to Shepard's arrival which is only a few hours after the attack on Eden Prime ended.

The exact quote for reference from Tali's evidence is "Eden Prime WAS a major victory"

Modifié par InvaderErl, 01 avril 2011 - 11:29 .


#9
Bamboozalist

Bamboozalist
  • Members
  • 867 messages
There are no real plot holes in Mass Effect just retarded writting, Tali having the data so quickly is bordering on a plot hole but we don't know how long in "real time" has passed since Eden Prime. The investigation into Saren could have been months long.

A plot hole is not "this wasn't explained to me so I don't understand it because a million different completely retarded scenarios would be needed to explain it" a plot hole is "This was explained to me and then it was directly contradicted" Bioware tends to be vague as all hell in ME to avoid that.

Modifié par Bamboozalist, 01 avril 2011 - 11:39 .


#10
Autoclave

Autoclave
  • Members
  • 388 messages
The opportunities are already missed. Despite the conduit problem, ME1 had a pretty clear of plot holes story. You could argue that the Conduit was a failure on Saren and Sovereign's part because they did not know what conduit really was. The only knew it existed because of the prothean beacons and had something to do with stopping reapers invasion, but they had no idea that it was a mere backdoor into the citadel.

ME2 however is where everything has gone wrong. All this collector business paired with shepard's death&ressurection has turned the game into a huge plot hole. The series have been damaged permanently and you cannot possible hope to fix it.

I wonder who is behind ME2 plot failure? Who at Bioware approved it and what was his/her reasoning behind collectors and baby reaper terminator? Wpuld be nice to see them trying to defend their decision.

Modifié par Autoclave, 01 avril 2011 - 11:35 .


#11
InvaderErl

InvaderErl
  • Members
  • 3 884 messages

Bamboozalist wrote...

There are no real plot holes in Mass Effect just retarded writting, Tali having the data so quickly is boarding on a plot hole but we don't know how long in "real time" has passed since Eden Prime. The investigation into Saren could have been months long.


I did consider this but there are only two possible gaps within the game that time elapses off-screen. The first is Shepard getting knocked out which Chakwas informs us has only been a few hours and the second is when they dock at the Citadel Anderson says the ambassador will want to see them straight away and the first scene on the Citadel is Udina and Shepard meeting for the first time

#12
Zulu_DFA

Zulu_DFA
  • Members
  • 8 217 messages
This is a good idea, to be honest...

#13
EternalPink

EternalPink
  • Members
  • 472 messages
Saren was looking for more than just the conduit, he had to find the cypher first ( and we had to go find it as well ) to know where to look for the conduit.

As to the usefulness of the conduit itself, well sovereign needed a way to get to the citadel, the geth needed a way to get to the citadel.

The council tell us that they are all safe and well since all the routes to the citadel are blockaded by the fleet, now whether soverign and the geth could have just forced there way through any blockade to the citadel (assuming the currrent citadel races didn't know how to turn some relays off) is a possibility but virgil (thunderbird reference?) tells us that even sovereign can't fight everybody at once on his own so after running a few blockades ( assuming they are using dreadnoughts for these ) atttrition might have brought them down.

But ignoring that, lets say sovereign and the geth get to the citadel, sovereign has to manually activate the citadel since the proteans messed with the keepers and he needs saren to lock the other relays to prevent all the council races sending there fleets in (Joker, we are waiting at arcturus open the relay etc) and then the citadel arms to prevent sovereign getting attacked while he's busy activating the relay.

If it wasn't for Saren the council could have rushed every ship they own to the citadel so that as each reaper appeared there was a fleet of hundreds of ships to take a shot at it which would probably have been the best chance ever to wipe the reapers out and that comes with the big IF of them getting to the citadel.

#14
Bamboozalist

Bamboozalist
  • Members
  • 867 messages

Autoclave wrote...
ME2 however is where everything has gone wrong. All this collector business paired with shepard's death&ressurection has turned the game into a huge plot hole. The series have been damaged permanently and you cannot possible hope to fix it.

I wonder who is behind ME2 plot failure? Who at Bioware approved it and what was his/her reasoning behind collectors and baby reaper terminator? Wpuld be nice to see them trying to defend their decision.


NONE OF THOSE ARE PLOT HOLES. They're retarded, but they're not plot holes. The closest one of those comes to being a plot hole is Shepard being resurrected, but even that has enough handwaving being it with the whole "it's science-fiction and the fact that actual science combined with a low density and snow covered planet can explain Shepard's body not being complete mush. Also people have survived crazy ass falls in real life (33,300 feet is the record by a woman who was thrown out of an exploding plane). It's not planetary rentry but Shepard wasn't falling to Earth.

#15
Eain

Eain
  • Members
  • 1 501 messages
[quote]This is all sorts of wrong. Sovereign needed a indoctrinated person to get into the Citadel to activate the relay because the Protheans, 50,000 years prior, sabotaged the Keepers. The Conduit was the only way to get in without attracting attention. This would have worked, but Shepard was on his ass. [/quote]

How is this a plot hole? I don't get it. You even point out what I just mentioned and you go on to say the Reapers could've just found the conduit and destroyed it? For what reason? [/quote]

It's a plot hole because Saren was already a spectre. He risked everything he had to gain something he didn't need. He could've already just walked up to the council chambers and activate the whole thing. Hell, he could've even had his Geth buddies to protect him because Noveria demonstrated that it's apparently perfectly possible to smuggle Geth past high security scanners.

The Reapers could've just invaded straight away (Sovereign was already in the galaxy and already had the aid of Saren, the entire search for the Conduit was ridiculous at this point), then leave the Geth to guard the Citadel after the invasion to prevent anyone from using the Conduit to sneak back onto it, and then on their own good time scour the galaxy for the Conduit.

[quote]How is the Conduit the backbone of the Reaper invasion plan when the Protheans were the one who built it? Is this a april fools post? No offense, really.[/quote]

This is a matter of reading. The Citadel is the backbone of the Reaper invasion plan. That's what ME1 emphasised. The cycle of extinction takes place via the Citadel that acts as a relay in disguise. The Conduit was only made by the Protheans to sabotage the Citadel, what with it being the single galactic entrance point for the Reapers.

And now it's no longer the single galactic entrance point, which makes me wonder why the Reapers even bothered to enter via the Citadel to begin with. Their invasion was already imminent via the Alpha Relay. The reactivation of the Citadel was absolutely pointless and only served to alert the organic races. This is clumsy and removes the credibility of the Reapers as a galactic threat.

[quote]They didn't use Alpha Relay to start the invasion because it's not the element of surprise. The current space faring races have ships guarding a lot of relays and they could alert everyone of the Reapers. Using the Citadel first is a tried and true method that was disrupted by the Protheans. When the Reapers realized Sovereign was gone, they activated and started moving to Alpha Relay. [/quote]

This is all conjecture. Nobody had any idea the Reapers were entering via the Alpha Relay. That's what the whole point of Arrival is: Kenson supposedly had proof. If the Reapers had not revealed themselves at the Citadel, Kenson would've had no clue what the pulsating artifact was, or what its pulses indicated. They needlessly gave themselves away.

[quote]The Human Reaper was an experiment to see if Humans were able to be made into a Reaper. The Human-Reaper activating and attacking Shepard is proof that Humans are able to be made into Reapers. The Collectors served their purpose. Human Reaper wasn't a new vanguard for letting them invade, it was a test subject.[/quote]

And they could've tested the hell out of it a thousand times faster if they'd just kept low, kept quiet, invaded via the Alpha Relay and all adjacent connected relays, and then harvested humans at the speed of light compared to what the Collectors were capable of.

My point is this: the Alpha Relay nullifies the point of the Citadel being the backbone of the Reaper invasion, it nullifies the point of the Conduit as serving as a backdoor to sabotage the citadel with, it nullifies the entire presence of Sovereign in ME1, it nullifies the Collectors further alerting Shepard to Reaper activity, so on and so on. There's no point to any of this. The best option from the beginning would've simply been to not alert the galaxy to anything, invade via the Alpha Relay, harvest everything, and bugger off again.

The only way to now explain the nonsensical behaviour of the Reapers is to say that they are idiots. And that hardly seems fitting.

#16
InvaderErl

InvaderErl
  • Members
  • 3 884 messages
There is an easy way for them to get out of that, and that is to say the Reapers have burnt up an incredible amount of resources and power flying back into the Milky Way leaving them in a vulnerable state, it would make sense then why they would only use the Alpha Relay as a last resort. 

Modifié par InvaderErl, 01 avril 2011 - 11:55 .


#17
Zulu_DFA

Zulu_DFA
  • Members
  • 8 217 messages

Eain wrote...

The only way to now explain the nonsensical behaviour of the Reapers is to say that they are idiots. And that hardly seems fitting.

There is another:

Vigil was a bad guy.

The point of the Human-Reaper still remains unclear though.

#18
Guest_elektrego_*

Guest_elektrego_*
  • Guests
Just some incoherent opinions, since I don't have much time.
In ME Commander Shepard gets send on a mission to stop Saren, not the Reapers, since almost nobody believes in their existence. So summarizing the plot like you did is already wrong.
The reapers are old machines. Who is to say they follow they same logic as humans, when they start their invasion. Time means nothing to them, they have used the citadel countless times. Now Shepard came and stopped them. They have to think of something new, but then again you can't teach an old dog new tricks, but this is a human proverb and I don't know if i should apply it to the reapers...
If something doesn't follow their own line of reasoning, a lot of people dismiss it as wrong or holes. But as Cmmdr. Tuvok said: You're logic is flawed!
Just because you have a blind spot in your mind doesn't mean it is a hole in the plot...

#19
Nogthwai

Nogthwai
  • Members
  • 200 messages

Eain wrote...

And now it's no longer the single galactic entrance point, which makes me wonder why the Reapers even bothered to enter via the Citadel to begin with. Their invasion was already imminent via the Alpha Relay. The reactivation of the Citadel was absolutely pointless and only served to alert the organic races. This is clumsy and removes the credibility of the Reapers as a galactic threat.


The Citadel worked for the last 37 Million Years (possibly longer) and they defeated the organics every time - as others have said countless times, the arrival via the Alpha Relay is not a good choice since it alerts just about everyone. It is obvious that the Reapers want / need to relay on stealth to achieve a complete victory.

Also from the "bad" ending we can extrapolate that activating the citadel would not have been a clumsy and idiotic choice, since they would have achieved total victory in that case; they already win automatically if the alpha relay is not destroyed. So if Shepard had failed, a Reaper Victory would have been automatic.

Modifié par Nogthwai, 01 avril 2011 - 12:04 .


#20
Anacronian Stryx

Anacronian Stryx
  • Members
  • 3 134 messages
InvaderErl you're right about Sarens talk on Virmire i misremembered the conversation.

But then again doing the talk with Virgil he learns of :

Their fate.
How it was done.
What The conduit does.

So it's really just Shep putting two and two together - though what i do consider a plot hole is the fact that the Normandy can travel all the way back to the citadel in time to be in the front of the fifth fleet and that joker takes this action apparently though telepathy since Shep never contacts him and tell him to go.

Tali found the Geth on a uncharted world,So she could have been a far shorter distance away from the citadel than Shepard arrived before Shepard and set up a meeting with Fist right away.

The Geth knew what happened on Eden Prime due to their instant nature of communication it is all damn convenient but not a plot hole.

#21
InvaderErl

InvaderErl
  • Members
  • 3 884 messages

Anacronian Stryx wrote...



But then again doing the talk with Virgil he learns of :

Their fate.
How it was done.
What The conduit does.

So it's really just Shep putting two and two together - though what i do consider a plot hole is the fact that the Normandy can travel all the way back to the citadel in time to be in the front of the fifth fleet and that joker takes this action apparently though telepathy since Shep never contacts him and tell him to go.


But he tells the Council that Saren is planning to attack the Citadel BEFORE that, when the Normandy gets grounded. Our journal inexplicably gets updated with this information and one of the Council members say "If Saren is foolish enough to attack the Citadel, as you believe," but we never at any point find this out prior to that.

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Tali found the Geth on a uncharted world,So she could have been a far shorter distance away from the citadel than Shepard arrived before Shepard and set up a meeting with Fist right away.

The Geth knew what happened on Eden Prime due to their instant nature of communication it is all damn convenient but not a plot hole.



Again, Wrex/Garrus outright say Tali arrived on the station a few days prior.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 01 avril 2011 - 12:05 .


#22
G00N3R7883

G00N3R7883
  • Members
  • 452 messages

Eain wrote...

The imminent Reaper invasion actually has very little to do with the Conduit itself, which was merely a backdoor device for the Protheans to sabotage the Citadel's relay function after the invasion had occurred. The Reapers could've taken their sweet time to search for, and destroy, the Conduit AFTER their invasion. All that was needed for the invasion itself to occur was for Sovereign to connect manually with the Citadel and activate its relay mechanisms. And all he needed Saren for was to provide him with... well. Come to think of it, I don't even know. Because if Saren hadn't died in that fight with Shepard, Sovereign's shields would never have fallen, and he wouldn't have died at all. He was invincible to the combined might of the citadel fleets right until Robo-Saren dropped.


The main reason for starting the invasion at the Citadel is a tactical one, to kill off the galaxy's leadership with the element of surprise. After that, the rest of the galaxy would be in disarray and easy to pick off. In every cycle before this one, the equivalent of Saren would not have been needed because the Keepers would have opened the Citadel Mass Relay for the Reaper fleet. However the Prothean survivors reprogrammed the Keepers after the last cycle to stop this from happening in our cycle. Sovereign cannot open the Citadel relay, it has to be done from inside.

Honestly I stopped reading after that paragraph that I quoted because you clearly don't understand anything, please replay the games and pay attention. Sorry to be so blunt.

#23
Eain

Eain
  • Members
  • 1 501 messages

G00N3R7883 wrote...
The main reason for starting the invasion at the Citadel is a tactical one, to kill off the galaxy's leadership with the element of surprise. After that, the rest of the galaxy would be in disarray and easy to pick off. In every cycle before this one, the equivalent of Saren would not have been needed because the Keepers would have opened the Citadel Mass Relay for the Reaper fleet. However the Prothean survivors reprogrammed the Keepers after the last cycle to stop this from happening in our cycle. Sovereign cannot open the Citadel relay, it has to be done from inside.


This is what I keep being told repeatedly, as if this somehow serves to defeat my point. It serves to reinforce my point! Saren already had full access to the Citadel. He lost his spectre status while searching for something he didn't even need. There's no bloody need for the Conduit to be found BEFORE the invasion.

Honestly I stopped reading after that paragraph that I quoted because you clearly don't understand anything, please replay the games and pay attention. Sorry to be so blunt.


My argument is as simple and straightforward as it can be. Namely the following:

Why did Sovereign need Saren to find the Conduit?

In a solid story, questions like these can be answered without any form of ambiguity. You can't answer this question for Mass Effect without provoking further ones.

Why did Sovereign need Saren to find the Conduit?
1.Sovereign needed Saren to find the Conduit because the Protheans had used it to sneak onto the citadel before.

Why did the Protheans use the Conduit to sneak onto the citadel?
2. To sabotage it for the next Reaper invasion.

What does that have to do with the relay function of the Citadel?
3. It was sabotaged by Protheans who had used the Conduit as a backdoor onto the Citadel.

Who is going to use it as a backdoor onto the Citadel this time, considering that this is the Conduit's sole function?
4. Saren is going to use it as a backdoor onto the Citadel.

Why? Saren already has full access to the Citadel.
5. Saren needs to get his Geth armies onto the Citadel.

Why? Geth can be smuggled in past security terminals. They can, as demonstrated in ME2, just walk in past security aswell.
6. There needed to be a lot of Geth on the Citadel.

Why did there need to be a lot of Geth on the Citadel?
7. To stop Shepard from sabotaging Sarens attempts to protect Sovereign and reactivate the relay.

Why did Shepard want to sabotage Saren's attempts?
8. Because Shepard wants to stop the Reapers from the returning.

How did Shepard come to care about the Reapers in the first place?
9. Because Saren messed up on Eden Prime while looking for the Conduit.

Why was Saren looking for the Conduit?
10. To sneak his army onto the Citadel.

Why did Saren want to sneak an army onto the Citadel?
11. To defend himself against Shepard.

But Shepard was not a factor in Saren's plans when he initially began his search for the Conduit.
12. ...

And Saren already had access to the Citadel's functions due to his Spectre status, so again, what did he need the Conduit for?
13. ...

Why did Sovereign need Saren to find the Conduit?
14. There's no actual answer for this. They could've gone to find the Conduit after the invasion and guard the Citadel meanwhile. They could've just waited two years and invaded via the Alpha Relay and all other adjacent relays instead. The Reapers don't need to catch anyone offguard. Their technology is infinitely superior to that of the Citadel races.

#24
Nerevar-as

Nerevar-as
  • Members
  • 5 375 messages
If Sovie attacks before his troops are in control of the Citadel, then the citadel is closed. Only way to get enough soldiers to control the citadel was through the Conduit. Although apparently at first the Conduit was going to give access to the unaccessible core of the Citadel, but this idea didn´t make it.

An what´s the problem with alpha relay? It´s just the relay closest to galactic edge, so the Reapers get access to the network. It is NOT the relay they arrive through, they had to "walk" all the way from their sleeping place in dark space.
I guess playing it before SM bring s a plot hole unless the DLC removes the last scene from the game, as the Reapers are still far away from the MW. Either that or you killed 300000 people despite having months to spare.

#25
AdmiralCheez

AdmiralCheez
  • Members
  • 12 990 messages
You know, guys, looking at the timeframe in which Arrival takes place when compared to the events of ME2, had Shep not intervened, the Human Reaper would still be under construction. The point was never to build a Human Reaper, THEN invade, but to get a head start on the whole "ascension" bit since, thanks to Sovereign's death, they were behind schedule.

As for the Conduit, it was vital to a two-pronged attack--while Sov and his protective layer of geth canon fodder charge in from the front, Saren and additional goons are already attacking from behind.  Trying to board the station in the middle of a giant battle would have been... difficult.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 01 avril 2011 - 02:15 .