124 réponses à ce sujet

[Whatever42]

this isnt my name wrote...

Citadel fractures the galaxy, and gives more info.

The plot in ME was stupid as a whole, ingnoring the conduit being useless, soverign still revealed himself needlessly, if he didnt during the battle everyone would be occupied with saren and have no idea what soverign was doing, also soverign could have said he was the last of his kind, he didnt, if he did shep wouldnt be expecting anything.

Why was Saren keeping a beacon in his base ? He destroyed the one on prime, or tried too, but kept this one despite already having used it.

Mass effects plot is just bad man, at this point tere isnt any point in rationalizing it, accept it was a cluster**** and tat ME3 will pull more stupid crap, and make more problems, at this point you may aswell just ignore te story, if I gget ME3 its for the atmosphere, music and visuals, the plot is just dead to me at this point.

Why are you even playing it?

[MDT1]

I think the OP misses two points:
- In ME1 I doubt that Saren would be able to conquer or hold the controle room alone against entire C-sec as even as SPECTER he has no reason to stand in the middle of the councile chamber and take over Station command with an unknown command console. He didn't use the conduit alone after all.
If there wasn't this one stubborn femal of a species he doesn't fully understand his plan would have been PERFECT.
-ME2/Arrival: It was never said that backdooring in ME1 was the fastest way to enter the galaxy for the reapers. Its just nice when you can in one attack destroy the enemys entire logistic capacities (mass relays) and thus prevent him from eny fleetmovement.
Also I'm quite sure that the reapers aren't afraid of fighting the entire galaxy it's more that with such a small population and reproduction rate looseing a hand full reapers would be an extrem drawback in the long term.

Just because anyone doesn't understand the plot it doesn't mean that there are plotholes.

Modifié par MDT1, 01 avril 2011 - 03:25 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]Anacronian Stryx wrote...

The reapers much prefer to use the citadel than going any other route,
[/quote]
Why, BTW? If the can as easlily fly back just in a couple of years?
[/quote]

Because this is the method they have used so far hence it's their prefered method, If they prefered another method they would have taken another route.

[/quote]


[quote]Anacronian Stryx wrote...

And you forget that Sovereigns method would have worked brilliantly if there hadn't been a guy or gal running around with player shield on(that hax). [/quote]
And you forget, that if not for Sovereign's EPIC FAIL, the Reapers would still have the element of surprise. And hit the Citadel en masse after FTL travelling to the Widow System (which, BTW, they still can).
[/quote]

Sovereign had no way of knowing that some insanely over powerful human would climb the citadel tower and kill the Geth, Krogan warlords, Krogan Battle masters, rocket towers, Geth drop ships, Get by Saren one way or the other and then finally best Sovereign it self in combat, If Sovereign was meta playing perhaps the reapers would have made other plans but really in game the plan did make a lot of sense.

 

[this isnt my name]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

The reapers much prefer to use the citadel than going any other route,

Why, BTW? If the can as easlily fly back just in a couple of years?

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

And you forget that Sovereigns method would have worked brilliantly if there hadn't been a guy or gal running around with player shield on(that hax).

And you forget, that if not for Sovereign's EPIC FAIL, the Reapers would still have the element of surprise. And hit the Citadel en masse after FTL travelling to the Widow System (which, BTW, they still can).

Because without a surprise attack on the Citadel through the conduit, they could just close the citadel arms, making it very difficult to take the place. Breaking it open might risk destroying it, which would destroy the citadel network.

Saren was already allowed access to te citadel, e had agents on his payroll, and could easily smuggle geth in, there was no reason for the conduit, the only purpose it served was to get shepard to follow Seren and stop him, whic just makes no sense. No it turns out the citadel isnt even that important, so all in all its a fail, the could have waited then gone through the alpha relay, call in the geth fleet to attack, maybe the collectors too.

[FellowerOfOdin]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

There are almost no plot holes in ME 1.

..despite the biggest plot hole in recent video game history aka "Asari councellor not using EMBRACE THE UNIVERSE".

[Zulu_DFA]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Because without a surprise attack on the Citadel through the conduit, they could just close the citadel arms, making it very difficult to take the place. Breaking it open might risk destroying it, which would destroy the citadel network.

Laughable. The Reapers can't open their own casket?

What about the Collectors? A mission to "establish diplomatic relationships" with the Citadel Coun... ASSUMIMG CONTROL...?

BTW, why didn't Sovvie use the Collectors, instead the Geth? OR in addition to the Geth? Or instead of the Thorian to give Saren the Cypher?

Why did Saren betray the Shadow Broker, who was about to enter (or, more probably had already entered) a very serious business relationship with the Collectors?

[this isnt my name]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

Citadel fractures the galaxy, and gives more info.

The plot in ME was stupid as a whole, ingnoring the conduit being useless, soverign still revealed himself needlessly, if he didnt during the battle everyone would be occupied with saren and have no idea what soverign was doing, also soverign could have said he was the last of his kind, he didnt, if he did shep wouldnt be expecting anything.

Why was Saren keeping a beacon in his base ? He destroyed the one on prime, or tried too, but kept this one despite already having used it.

Mass effects plot is just bad man, at this point tere isnt any point in rationalizing it, accept it was a cluster**** and tat ME3 will pull more stupid crap, and make more problems, at this point you may aswell just ignore te story, if I gget ME3 its for the atmosphere, music and visuals, the plot is just dead to me at this point.

Why are you even playing it?

Simple, I hoped to look over ME1s stupid plot, the best case scenario would be sealing them in darkspace, now its them arriving regaurdless, so i bought ME2 out of hope it would make some sense of the plot, shame it had potential, and now I am likely not to get ME3, if I di its like I said, visuals, atmosphere and music. Why would I care more about bioshock than another fps ? Atmosphere, its important in a game and can make a game great.

[Whatever42]

this isnt my name wrote...

Saren was already allowed access to te citadel, e had agents on his payroll, and could easily smuggle geth in, there was no reason for the conduit, the only purpose it served was to get shepard to follow Seren and stop him, whic just makes no sense. No it turns out the citadel isnt even that important, so all in all its a fail, the could have waited then gone through the alpha relay, call in the geth fleet to attack, maybe the collectors too.

He could easily smuggle in an army of Geth and Krogan? Right into the heart of the Citadel? What, dress several hundred Geth and Krogan in long cloaks and smuggle them down into the Presdium through C-Sec?

And the Citadel would allow the Reapers to monopolize the relay network, isolating everyone in their home systems, preventing any organized resistance. And it beheads galactic cooperation. And it allows them to grab all the records from the Citadel which can aid them in making sure that they don't miss anyone.

Simply attacking by flying back means they attack a few systems and then face galactic resistance. People will be able to flee, which makes getting them all a lot harder.

Did you think about this at all?

[piemanz]

Valmarn wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Oh look, yet another person who seems to think that the Reapers were coming through the Alpha Relay in Arrival, rather than approaching it in FTL. The Alpha Relay in no way makes the citadel obsolete. It's just a regular relay, albeit one that has a slightly longer range than the norm. What makes it special is simply that it's the closest to the Reapers' hibernation spot, and thus their first access point to the relay network as they approach the galaxy without the use of the Citadel Relay.

If the Alpha Relay was merely the relay closest to the Reapers' hibernation spot (i.e. they would still have to travel to said relay via FTL), then why/how were the Reapers only moments away from arriving?

Because the reapers have been travelling from their hibernation spot since the end of ME1, thats nearly 4 years.The Alpha relay has no special properties it is simply the first relay they can reach on their current path.

This has all been discussed to death and all points in the OP regarding plot holes have been disproven here.

Modifié par piemanz, 01 avril 2011 - 03:30 .

[Whatever42]

this isnt my name wrote...

Simple, I hoped to look over ME1s stupid plot, the best case scenario would be sealing them in darkspace, now its them arriving regaurdless, so i bought ME2 out of hope it would make some sense of the plot, shame it had potential, and now I am likely not to get ME3, if I di its like I said, visuals, atmosphere and music. Why would I care more about bioshock than another fps ? Atmosphere, its important in a game and can make a game great.

Well, we'll miss you. Take care.

[MDT1]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

There are almost no plot holes in ME 1.

..despite the biggest plot hole in recent video game history aka "Asari councellor not using EMBRACE THE UNIVERSE".

The councile was already convinced that Shepard truely believed in the reaper invasion because of the data that was planted in her brain.
Embracing the universe still could not proof that the data wasn't fake (which is the councils opinion)
I mean they have half a reaper after ME1 and still think it's fake ...

Modifié par MDT1, 01 avril 2011 - 03:30 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

There are almost no plot holes in ME 1.

..despite the biggest plot hole in recent video game history aka "Asari councellor not using EMBRACE THE UNIVERSE".

This would prove nothing more than Shepard really believed what (S)he said which was never in doubt by the council, Only Shepherds interpretation of events was in doubt.

EDIT : Ninja'd

[Zulu_DFA]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

The reapers much prefer to use the citadel than going any other route,

Why, BTW? If the can as easlily fly back just in a couple of years?

Because this is the method they have used so far hence it's their prefered method, If they prefered another method they would have taken another route.

So why didn't they prefer the more foolproof route?

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

And you forget that Sovereigns method would have worked brilliantly if there hadn't been a guy or gal running around with player shield on(that hax).

And you forget, that if not for Sovereign's EPIC FAIL, the Reapers would still have the element of surprise. And hit the Citadel en masse after FTL travelling to the Widow System (which, BTW, they still can).

Sovereign had no way of knowing that some insanely over powerful human would climb the citadel tower and kill the Geth, Krogan warlords, Krogan Battle masters, rocket towers, Geth drop ships, Get by Saren one way or the other and then finally best Sovereign it self in combat, If Sovereign was meta playing perhaps the reapers would have made other plans but really in game the plan did make a lot of sense.

According to your own words, Sovereign initially had no clue as to the nature of the problem whatsoever. In other words, Sovereign couldn't have any estimate of its chances to fix the unknown problem. Shepard indeed was not a factor here, because for all Sovereign knew the problem could have been unfixable... Oh wait, that exactly what the problem was, according to Vigil.

Therefore, any investigation was bound to bear the inherent risk of disclosing the existence of the Reapers to the otherwise unsuspecting Galaxy. Therefore, since the Reapers have really zero problem about travelling back to the Galaxy without the Citadel, they had to do it immediately.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 avril 2011 - 03:36 .

[piemanz]

this isnt my name wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

Citadel fractures the galaxy, and gives more info.

The plot in ME was stupid as a whole, ingnoring the conduit being useless, soverign still revealed himself needlessly, if he didnt during the battle everyone would be occupied with saren and have no idea what soverign was doing, also soverign could have said he was the last of his kind, he didnt, if he did shep wouldnt be expecting anything.

Why was Saren keeping a beacon in his base ? He destroyed the one on prime, or tried too, but kept this one despite already having used it.

Mass effects plot is just bad man, at this point tere isnt any point in rationalizing it, accept it was a cluster**** and tat ME3 will pull more stupid crap, and make more problems, at this point you may aswell just ignore te story, if I gget ME3 its for the atmosphere, music and visuals, the plot is just dead to me at this point.

Why are you even playing it?

Simple, I hoped to look over ME1s stupid plot, the best case scenario would be sealing them in darkspace, now its them arriving regaurdless, so i bought ME2 out of hope it would make some sense of the plot, shame it had potential, and now I am likely not to get ME3, if I di its like I said, visuals, atmosphere and music. Why would I care more about bioshock than another fps ? Atmosphere, its important in a game and can make a game great.

Seriously how can you 'seal' them in dark space? that makes no sense at all.

[Devbo22]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

If Sovereign was meta playing perhaps the reapers would have made other plans but really in game the plan did make a lot of sense.

 

What!?  The reapers aren't meta playing?

[Thompson family]

Good Lord.

1,180 words in the original post.

Sorry. I don't read writing critiques by people who are clearly in dire need of an editor.

[SmokePants]

this isnt my name wrote...

Saren was already allowed access to te citadel, e had agents on his payroll, and could easily smuggle geth in, there was no reason for the conduit, the only purpose it served was to get shepard to follow Seren and stop him, whic just makes no sense. No it turns out the citadel isnt even that important, so all in all its a fail, the could have waited then gone through the alpha relay, call in the geth fleet to attack, maybe the collectors too.

"Could easily smuggle Geth"? That's an assumption. The Citadel is not Noveria. His army of indoctrinated Asari commandos and Krogan would have drawn suspision. He only had one shot at a takeover attempt and the Conduit was simply the most fool-proof way of getting the necessary forces onto the Citadel.

And the Citadel is still important. The Reapers would love to be able to control the relay network. It's just out of reach now, so they have to get their hands dirty and sweep the galaxy the old-fashioned way. With the Citadel, it might have taken them centuries. Without it, it may take millennia and just generally be a less pleasant process for them.

[Mangalores]

piemanz wrote...
....

Seriously how can you 'seal' them in dark space? that makes no sense at all.

Actually, it does since they seem very dependant on the whole chicken dance routine of overwhelming the enemy via the Citadel gate. It's retarded to have your off switch there and not everywhere if you have options of easy entry via all other approaches.
Either the Citadel is important so negating them entry via there shuts them out for good or it is not important so the Reaper's invasion plan would work from any relay so you could trap us regardless.

The whole plot hole this fills is why artificial maschine beings would need human brains...

ME2 might not have plot holes per se - though I'd argue that because it is not clear if the Collectors try to kill or capture Shepard since most of what they do is too retarded to get him killed for certain but too dangerous to assume he or his body would survive - but the plot is really stupid and disjointed from ME1.

[Whatever42]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

According to your own words, Sovereign initially had no clue as to the nature of the problem whatsoever. In other words, Sovereign couldn't have any estimate of its chances to fix the unknown problem. Shepard indeed was not a factor here, because for all Sovereign knew the problem could have been unfixable... Oh wait, that exactly what the problem was, according to Vigil.

Therefore, any investigation was bound to bear the inherent risk of disclosing the existence of the Reapers to the otherwise unsuspecting Galaxy. Therefore, since the Reapers have really zero problem about travelling back to the Galaxy without the Citadel, they had to do it immediately.

The problem was that the Keeper's weren't listening. Sovereign could have easily figured out why and that they Citadel relay was still working. Saren could have scanned the Citadel tower for him.

And flying back to the galaxy and fighting a galactic war is a far poorer plan than seizing the citadel and shutting down the relay network. The galaxy is a big, big place. Appearing and attacking several system means there are probably hundreds of other systems who are now aware of you and are capable of mounting a defense.

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]SmokePants wrote...

[/quote]"Could easily smuggle Geth"? That's an assumption. The Citadel is not Noveria. His army of indoctrinated Asari commandos and Krogan would have drawn suspision.[/quote]
The Blue Suns disagree.


[quote]SmokePants wrote...

He only had one shot at a takeover attempt and the Conduit was simply the most fool-proof way of getting the necessary forces onto the Citadel.[/quote]
Supposedly, he didn't even learn what the Conduit was until after he alerted the galaxy to some kind of a large scale campaign he was undertaking and lost his hero-spectre priviliges.


[quote]SmokePants wrote...

And the Citadel is still important. The Reapers would love to be able to control the relay network. It's just out of reach now,[/quote]
No it's not. They still can FTL-fly to it, just like to the Alpha relay and London.


[quote]SmokePants wrote...

so they have to get their hands dirty and sweep the galaxy the old-fashioned way. With the Citadel, it might have taken them centuries. Without it, it may take millennia and just generally be a less pleasant process for them.
[/quote]
This is a baseless assumption.

[Whatever42]

Mangalores wrote...

piemanz wrote...
....

Seriously how can you 'seal' them in dark space? that makes no sense at all.

Actually, it does since they seem very dependant on the whole chicken dance routine of overwhelming the enemy via the Citadel gate. It's retarded to have your off switch there and not everywhere if you have options of easy entry via all other approaches.
Either the Citadel is important so negating them entry via there shuts them out for good or it is not important so the Reaper's invasion plan would work from any relay so you could trap us regardless.

The whole plot hole this fills is why artificial maschine beings would need human brains...

ME2 might not have plot holes per se - though I'd argue that because it is not clear if the Collectors try to kill or capture Shepard since most of what they do is too retarded to get him killed for certain but too dangerous to assume he or his body would survive - but the plot is really stupid and disjointed from ME1.

Would an on switch be everywhere as well? That would kind of defeat the purpose.

And that's assuming that the Reapers built the Citadel and Relays to being with, which is very very unlikely.

[piemanz]

Mangalores wrote...

piemanz wrote...
....

Seriously how can you 'seal' them in dark space? that makes no sense at all.

Actually, it does since they seem very dependant on the whole chicken dance routine of overwhelming the enemy via the Citadel gate. It's retarded to have your off switch there and not everywhere if you have options of easy entry via all other approaches.
Either the Citadel is important so negating them entry via there shuts them out for good or it is not important so the Reaper's invasion plan would work from any relay so you could trap us regardless.

The whole plot hole this fills is why artificial maschine beings would need human brains...

ME2 might not have plot holes per se - though I'd argue that because it is not clear if the Collectors try to kill or capture Shepard since most of what they do is too retarded to get him killed for certain but too dangerous to assume he or his body would survive - but the plot is really stupid and disjointed from ME1.

They can't just use any ralay to warp in from darks space it has to be the citadel and only the citadel.

Using the citadel is simply the faster route, it also has numerous tactical advantages over just flying from wherever they were in dark space.Not to mention the fact they have probably been travelling at FTL for 4 years, maybe longer, it's  going to take it's toll on their energy levels.The assumption they can just as as easily get here without the citadel is just plain wrong.

Modifié par piemanz, 01 avril 2011 - 04:01 .

[SmokePants]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

So why didn't they prefer the more foolproof route?

If you had to remove a trillion tons of snow, would you grab a snow shovel or wait until the snow plow was fixed?

Zulu_DFA wrote...

According to your own words, Sovereign initially had no clue as to the nature of the problem whatsoever. In other words, Sovereign couldn't have any estimate of its chances to fix the unknown problem. Shepard indeed was not a factor here, because for all Sovereign knew the problem could have been unfixable... Oh wait, that exactly what the problem was, according to Vigil.

Therefore, any investigation was bound to bear the inherent risk of disclosing the existence of the Reapers to the otherwise unsuspecting Galaxy. Therefore, since the Reapers have really zero problem about travelling back to the Galaxy without the Citadel, they had to do it immediately.

If they can't come in via the Citadel, then there IS NO element of surprise to preserve.

[MDT1]

Mangalores wrote...



Actually, it does since they seem very dependant on the whole chicken dance routine of overwhelming the enemy via the Citadel gate. It's retarded to have your off switch there and not everywhere if you have options of easy entry via all other approaches.

Actually from their point of view they had the swich everywhere as they just didn't expect it could be possible that the Keepers wouldn't react to their signal which they should be able to send from everywhere.

Just as Saren in ME1 they thought their plan was failsafe and both were ruined by a series of unexpectable fortunes in the end.

[Zulu_DFA]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

The problem was that the Keeper's weren't listening. Sovereign could have easily figured out why and that they Citadel relay was still working. Saren could have scanned the Citadel tower for him.

Solution: fix the Keepers. Undo the changes made by the "12 scientist". Use Benezia for the political pull, Saren for wet work, and Chorban for his already ready -to-use instruments. No need to blow up an entire colony and alert the Galaxy to your presense.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

And flying back to the galaxy and fighting a galactic war is a far poorer plan than seizing the citadel and shutting down the relay network. The galaxy is a big, big place. Appearing and attacking several system means there are probably hundreds of other systems who are now aware of you and are capable of mounting a defense.

*Sigh*

1. Fly to the Galaxy.

2. Entry point: the Widow system.

3. Our forces: 700+ Reapers.

4. Opposing forces:  a couple dozen clueless Turian dreadnoughts at most.

Gonna be a short war.