124 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

Not much need for subtlety. All Sovereign needed was that the ban for Keeper's studies be removed, and that the studies themselves be conducted by people on Saren's payroll.

If one random Salarian geek can come up with a way to study the Keepers, another can too. Say, wasn't Mordin interested in studying the Keepers?

Like I said. If the Reapers had no way to open the Citadel from the ouside, then they'd be just laughable morons. Even if that was the case there were multiple options for a diverion like Saren's one, only more sensible, like sending in the Collectors on a "diplomatic" mission.

If everything else fails, leave a dozen of Reapers at the Citadel, to figure out the way to get in, or maybe just wait till the guys inside open it up again, while the rest 688+ Reapers could go on reaping.

And what's that stuff about planet crashing? You play to much ME2 DLC, man. A couple of hydrogene bombs would be enough.[/quote]
You're assuming that the Council would authorize experimentation on the Keepers. Big big IF. Why would they do that?[/quote]Why wouldn't they? The Salarians must be itching for it, the Turians wouldn't give a damn either way. So the problem must be the Asari, and that's where Benezia would come into play.[/quote]


[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

And how would Saren get his people in charge?
[/quote]
How did Saren get his people in charge of reviving the Rachni? Right, money talks.


[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

And Chorban merely scanned them and look what he found. If someone actually reported that to the council then wouldn't that be bad? Oh right, Saren is so politically powerful that he'll control the whole team and fabricate all the data to the council.[/quote]
That's right. Plus Sovereign surely could have provided some guidelines as to what to look for to get quick results. And the findings like Chorban's would have been presented as "amazing progress" of the studies, and all  Sovereign needed was to fix just a few keepers and BAM!

Anyway, that's definitely a more sound plan, than flying around the Galaxy, raising armies of genocidal robots, blowing up colonies and searching for a long lost planet, with no actual clue as to how it would really help with the main problem.


[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

That plan not only has great risk but is very tricky. I would argue that simply despositing a few hundred Krogan and Geth in the Citadel is safer.[/quote]
These words are golden!


[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

And again, you're assuming that the Reapers built the Citadel because Sovey said so. But yes, if the Reapers had really built it all and could remote control it all then they could just order the Citadel to fire up and gate in all the Reapers and this whole game is pointless. Except they can't. So they must not be able to.

And smuggling spies into the Citadel doesn't get you that much. The Citadel tower was very defensible. Ashley even comments on it. They needed an army to take it.[/quote]
Seriously? How about that Sovereign's claw that just crashed in through the ceiling?



[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

And leaving a few dozen Reapers to seige the Citadel while going off to make war still leaves you the problem with now you have to fight a war. And people will get away from you. And your cycle is toast.
[/quote]
Reapers don't fight wars. They just  reap and blow way everything that stands in the way. Bzz-bzzz, just like that.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 avril 2011 - 05:07 .

[scpulley]

this isnt my name wrote...

I know exactly what you mean OP, but good luck trying to proove yor argument here, people will not listen and then complain "STOP FINDING PLOT HOLES!".

But yeah MEs writing as just completely collapsed, it wasnt that good in ME1, but 2 is just adding to the trainwreck.
Just sit back and watch people defend bad writing, declare it the best in te industry, despite it being illogical.

And this is why it's REALLY hard to write what's considered 'good' science fiction anymore. Trust me, I've tried Generally science fiction fans are extremely hard to please because generally, there isn't as much suspension of disbelief like youi get in a fantasy setting, sci fi fans are looking for story that is 100 percent logical and based on the science we have now or at least working on makes sense. They aren't always the most creative people in the world that crap art and creativity all day. Is ME plot scientifically sound or make sense all the time? No. But the question is, does it qualify as decent Science Fiction? I'd say so, there are a few plot holes. Certainly better and more involved than any other science fiction video game, video game not book, I've played.

Modifié par scpulley, 01 avril 2011 - 05:13 .

[Whatever42]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Why wouldn't they? The Salarians must be itching for it, the Turians woouldn't give a damn either way. So the problem must be the Asari, and that's where Benezia would come into play.

There are lots of matriarchs. Being a matriarch doesn't get you listened to. And if they haven't done it in a 1000 years with the Salarians itching to do it, there must be some pretty sound reasons for not doing it.

How did Saren get his people in charge of reviving the Rachni? Right, money talks.

Buying a company that found a Reaper egg is one thing. Buying the Council is much, much more expensive. I'm thinking Saren couldn't afford it.

That's right. Plus Sovereign suredly could have provided some giudelines as to what to look for to get quick results. And the fidings like Chorban's would have been presented as "amazing progress" of the studies, and all  Sovereign needed was to fix just a few keepers and BAMQ

Anyway, that's definitely a more sound plan, than flying aroud the Galaxy, raising armies of genocidal robots, blowing up colonies and searching for a long lost planet, with no actual clue as to how it would really help with the main problem.

Again, you're assuming he could fix the Keepers or that the council would approve. Sovey clearly knew about the Conduit. They had a beacon already and he's been around long enough to piece together what happened. When the second beacon popped up, they just reacted to grab the info. Saren acted like Saren.

But the conduit is a great plan. Drop an army right on top of the Citadel tower and then hit them with a massive armada. Seriously. Why is that a bad plan? Taking the citadel is incredibly vital and Sovey can drop an army right in there.

Seriously? How about that Sovereign's claw that just crashed in through the ceiling?

What about it? I didn't say the tower couldn't be destroyed. Heck, that claw probably trashed the citadel relay controls. Sovey was likely perching on that tower to stop the Alliance from blowing it up. However, taking control of it is a different story.

Reapers don't fight wars. They just  reap and blow way everything that stands in the way. Bzz-bzzz, just like that.

You're right, they don't fight wars. But without the citadel they would have had a war. And if the Reapers were indestructible, why was sovereign hiding behind the Geth at the invasion? Why use the Geth? Except they're not indestructible.

And again, there is the point that systems would have just trashed their relays and scattered. The Reapers like the cycle. It works for them. They put a lot of thought into it. Having it all wiped away probably deeply upsets them. That's probably worth a little risk to get back their citadel.

[SalsaDMA]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
 Sovey was likely perching on that tower to stop the Alliance from blowing it up. However, taking control of it is a different story.

Not if you are a reaper. Then you simply....

ASUME CONTROL





Sorry, it had to be said

[piemanz]

At this point i will requote this.

SmokePants wrote...

The take-away from this thread is that there are a lot of people who simply don't want this story to work and are eager to dismiss very simple and elegant potential explanations to further their severe case of nerd rage.

David Gaider posted a few days ago how the "plot hole" arguments are generally a mix of "I don't get it." and "I don't like it."

For emphasis..

[Zulu_DFA]

piemanz wrote...

At this point i will requote this.

SmokePants wrote...

The take-away from this thread is that there are a lot of people who simply don't want this story to work and are eager to dismiss very simple and elegant potential explanations to further their severe case of nerd rage.

David Gaider posted a few days ago how the "plot hole" arguments are generally a mix of "I don't get it." and "I don't like it."

For emphasis..

AD HOMINEM + HIDDEN INSULT + GENERALIZATION.

For emphasis.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 avril 2011 - 05:37 .

[OGWS]

I guess the only explanation for another invasion route is that it then took two more years, but really, if the reapers already waited 50,000 years, whats two more? Whatevs, I still love the games

Heh, my post seems way out of place, seeing as I posted before reading the whole thing. Please, continue.

Modifié par OGWS, 01 avril 2011 - 05:42 .

[Whatever42]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

piemanz wrote...

At this point i will requote this.

SmokePants wrote...

The take-away from this thread is that there are a lot of people who simply don't want this story to work and are eager to dismiss very simple and elegant potential explanations to further their severe case of nerd rage.

David Gaider posted a few days ago how the "plot hole" arguments are generally a mix of "I don't get it." and "I don't like it."

For emphasis..

AD HOMINEM + HIDDEN INSULT + GENERALIZATION.

For emphasis.

Yes, he's generalizing. That's evident when he used the word "generally". He's not claiming all arguments are of that sort. Nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean that he's incorrect.

There is no ad hominem. Who exactly is being belittled? How are they being belittled? He's not saying person A is stupid so their argument must be stupid. He is staying argument A is stupid. That is not remotely ad hominem.

Hidden insult? Well, if you think your arguments are included in the generalization and think that you are being insulted when someone disagrees with you then I guess.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Actually, this is a fairly common issue for Science Fiction and Fantasy writers, and one of the reasons a lot of SF/Fantasy lit doesn't transition into the mainstream:

Regular Science Fiction readers are easily frustrated if they are told everything explicitly. They expect to make logical leaps, and they want information to be seeded throughout the narrative. Readers of non-genre fiction haven't assembled these detective skills, so when something unexpected happens they prefer an explicit explanation.

This is why Harry Potter and Twilight became mainstream, instead of more typical books in their respective genres: both offer heavy, explicit exposition in a way that may feel hokey and heavy-handed to some normal readers of SF, but which makes the world more inviting to those not used to the detective work and intuitive leaps most SF readers thrive on. In Harry Potter every exception to the assumed rules is carefully explained by someone we trust implicitly at the end of the story. "You see Harry, the reason you weren't killed is that you were protected by the love of your mother." Most normal fantasy readers would have inferred that, but people who haven't built up those tools need to be told why the curse didn't work, or it seems like a plot hole.

There's a lot of debate in the SF literary community about which way the wind is blowing: do we have to move toward more explicit exposition to gain the attention of less savvy readers, or will can we expect readers to become increasingly sophisticated, so they'll want to explore our little mysteries.

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Why wouldn't they? The Salarians must be itching for it, the Turians woouldn't give a damn either way. So the problem must be the Asari, and that's where Benezia would come into play.[/quote]

There are lots of matriarchs. Being a matriarch doesn't get you listened to. And if they haven't done it in a 1000 years with the Salarians itching to do it, there must be some pretty sound reasons for not doing it.
[/quote]
The only reason was that it seemed apparently pointless as the Keepers kept blowing up (no pun intended) without any results being achieved. All that Saren needed was to promise the results and gete some of it quick.


[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Buying a company that found a Reaper egg is one thing. Buying the Council is much, much more expensive. I'm thinking Saren couldn't afford it.
[/quote]
He didn't need to buy the whole of the Council. Just one decision and a group that would conduct the research.


[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Again, you're assuming he could fix the Keepers or that the council would approve. Sovey clearly knew about the Conduit. They had a beacon already and he's been around long enough to piece together what happened. When the second beacon popped up, they just reacted to grab the info. Saren acted like Saren.[/quote]
And Sovereign acted like a moron, if it'd forgone the more obvious and less loud options.


[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

But the conduit is a great plan. Drop an army right on top of the Citadel tower and then hit them with a massive armada. Seriously. Why is that a bad plan? Taking the citadel is incredibly vital and Sovey can drop an army right in there.
[/quote]
Right. Only there is no need for a Conduit in this plan. Like you said, infitlrate the Citadel old-fashioned way, smuggle some weapons, invite the Collectors for a "first contact" talks and Bob's your uncle. But by the time Saren found the Conduit, the Council was on alert, and (prepare for mind blowing stuff) he wouldn't have even reached the Council Chambers, if Shepard with his super powers and super team remaind there to back up the C-Sec grunts instead of chasing him accross the Galaxy and thus giving him a head start.


[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
[quote]
Seriously? How about that Sovereign's claw that just crashed in through the ceiling?
[/quote]
What about it? I didn't say the tower couldn't be destroyed. Heck, that claw probably trashed the citadel relay controls. Sovey was likely perching on that tower to stop the Alliance from blowing it up. However, taking control of it is a different story.
[/quote]
That about it that Saren's strike force could have been inserted into the Council Chambers directly from a dropship, instead of having to fight their way around the Presidium and up the Tower.



[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
[quote]Reapers don't fight wars. They just  reap and blow way everything that stands in the way. Bzz-bzzz, just like that. [/quote]You're right, they don't fight wars. But without the citadel they would have had a war.[/quote]
No they wouldn't. They'd just annihilate any opposition they encountered in a matter of minutes. Sovereign almost tore the 5th Fleet a new one all by itself. Imagine what a hundred of Reapers could do. And there are at least several hundreds of them.


[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

And again, there is the point that systems would have just trashed their relays and scattered.[/quote]
It appears that "trashing" a relay removes the problem and there is nothing left to scatter. But by that Point The Reapers would have already had full control of the relay system, simply by force, if they wanted to.


[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

The Reapers like the cycle. It works for them. They put a lot of thought into it. Having it all wiped away probably deeply upsets them. That's probably worth a little risk to get back their citadel.
[/quote]
And yet they are going to attack Earth first and not the Citadel.

[Tazzmission]

InvaderErl wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...


There are almost no plot holes in ME 1.

There are a couple, they're just not related to Saren/Sovereign's plan.

Two of the biggest off the top of my head are Shepard at no point prior to Iilos actually discovers that Saren is planning to attack the Citadel yet all of a sudden he knows this.

Another is Tali arrives with evidence of Saren and Benezia congratulating one another over Eden Prime several days before the attack on Eden Prime has even happened.

There are a few other such gaffes but those stuck out to me.

um tali explains how she got the evidence in the first place.... just because you didnt see the actual convo in game dosent mean its a plot hole....

and im willing to bet shepards knowledge on saren attacking the citadel is for how saren attacked eden prime and the info you get from anderson... also dont forget when your on vermire you do get open answers as to why saren does what he does. what better way to eliminate the humans is by willfully going with the reapers?

[Whatever42]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
The only reason was that it seemed apparently pointless as the Keepers kept blowing up (no pun intended) without any results being achieved. All that Saren needed was to promise the results and gete some of it quick.

They wouldn't want to know how he had this knowlegde? Or where the researchers came from? Or why their own people weren't allowed to obversve and participate? Or why he was altering them?

And Sovereign acted like a moron, if it'd forgone the more obvious and less loud options.

The beacon had to be destroyed, that's for certain. It held a warning. That Saren didn't destroy it imo is a plot hole - although I guess you could argue that Saren's ego made him stupid or that he really wanted it to survive. Regardless, the bombs were an evil villain comic book stunt.

Right. Only there is no need for a Conduit in this plan. Like you said, infitlrate the Citadel old-fashioned way, smuggle some weapons, invite the Collectors for a "first contact" talks and Bob's your uncle. But by the time Saren found the Conduit, the Council was on alert, and (prepare for mind blowing stuff) he wouldn't have even reached the Council Chambers, if Shepard with his super powers and super team remaind there to back up the C-Sec grunts instead of chasing him accross the Galaxy and thus giving him a head start.

If the Collectors were allowed into the tower and Saren had a few agents, that's a far cry from seizing citadel control and having enough forces to hold the tower. If an army of Geth and Krogan couldn't stop Shepard, you're right that a few infiltrators would get steamrolled.

That about it that Saren's strike force could have been inserted into the Council Chambers directly from a dropship, instead of having to fight their way around the Presidium and up the Tower.

Dropping a strike force is better than teleporting in an army of Geth in Krogan? You think so?

But you are using the magical powers of hindsight here. If given the option to land a strike team or teleport in a vast army, I'd go for vast army. Seems safer and more effective.

If Shepard hadn't used the beacon in ME1, this would be a foregone conclusion. Saren screwed up. Everyone is only alive because Saren screwed up. Heck, Sovey could have waited for the Reaper fleet if Saren didn't screw up. But he did and Shepard chased him down and it was either use the conduit or lose it. And at this point, the bad guys probably thought that the cat was out of the bag and it was better to move now than the alternative of what we're about to see in ME3.

They gambled, they lost. It happens.

No they wouldn't. They'd just annihilate any opposition they encountered in a matter of minutes. Sovereign almost tore the 5th Fleet a new one all by itself. Imagine what a hundred of Reapers could do. And there are at least several hundreds of them.

I didn't say we'd win the war. And there are other things you can do other than a standup fight. I'd hurl a relay at a planet that the Reapers were invading, for example.

It appears that "trashing" a relay removes the problem and there is nothing left to scatter. But by that Point The Reapers would have already had full control of the relay system, simply by force, if they wanted to.

No, you'd trash the relay when you realized that the Reapers were out there a-reaping. Or drag it into something really, really unpleasant. Reapers would then have to fly around at FTL speeds. And before that happened, different species could scatter also at FTL speeds.

The protheans had no clue what was going on until it was too late. With the relay system intact, most of the galaxy would figure it out and have options.

And yet they are going to attack Earth first and not the Citadel.

We don't know that. And again, attacking the citadel other than to seige it would be pointless. But we don't know the plot of the 3rd game. Perhaps flying 2 years at FTL without a core dump is even too much for the Reapers and they had to make sacrifices. Perhaps they don't have limitless energy. Maybe they hit several systems at once. We don't know.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 01 avril 2011 - 06:34 .

[this isnt my name]

scpulley wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

I know exactly what you mean OP, but good luck trying to proove yor argument here, people will not listen and then complain "STOP FINDING PLOT HOLES!".

But yeah MEs writing as just completely collapsed, it wasnt that good in ME1, but 2 is just adding to the trainwreck.
Just sit back and watch people defend bad writing, declare it the best in te industry, despite it being illogical.

And this is why it's REALLY hard to write what's considered 'good' science fiction anymore. Trust me, I've tried Generally science fiction fans are extremely hard to please because generally, there isn't as much suspension of disbelief like youi get in a fantasy setting, sci fi fans are looking for story that is 100 percent logical and based on the science we have now or at least working on makes sense. They aren't always the most creative people in the world that crap art and creativity all day. Is ME plot scientifically sound or make sense all the time? No. But the question is, does it qualify as decent Science Fiction? I'd say so, there are a few plot holes. Certainly better and more involved than any other science fiction video game, video game not book, I've played.

The science I can ignore, quite easily. Its the fact that no one uses logic, saren went after the conduit, a backdoor, when he could have easily walked around the citadel, now Saren has money, an army of Krogan, just disguise some,  or something so he has agents around the place, or not considering how the mercs were free to walk around the citadel in ME2. Also hae a few geth hidden, scattered to activate when you give the word. They know Sovering is Sarens ship, that could easily be inside the citadel cal in the geth fleet, the citadel closes, the geth and krogan then start attacking C-sec, during the chaos, Saren heads to the citadel tower, seals it, soverign does his thing. No pne knows soverign is doing damage, so they ignore him,  soverign opens the relay, reapers poir out, reapers win.

I can think of a better plan than a spectre, and a reaper in 5 minutes. Thye dont think, everything is set up just so they fail, thats what makes it so laughable, then ME2 adds on by making it so they dont need the citadel, hell they could have sent out the collector vessal to back up soverign, if the collector ship was there the second fleet would likely get its ass kicked, again they didnt use logic, the science I can ignore, but when the bad guys are completely incompitant and borderline and this stupid, I take issue with the writing, if its some stupid brainless enemy thats fine, but Saren, soverign and reapers arent stupid.

[ErebUs890]

I found a GIANT plot hole and it's been bothering me for some time. Shepard never uses the bathroom or even eats or sleeps!! Man, oh man... The writers have some serious issues going on if they can't even add sleep/eat/pissing mechanics.

Seriously though, you people worried about little things such as plot holes need to relax. It's a game, and a damn good one at that.

Modifié par ErebUs890, 01 avril 2011 - 06:51 .

[this isnt my name]

ErebUs890 wrote...

I found a GIANT plot hole and it's been bothering me for some time. Shepard never uses the bathroom or even eats or sleeps!! Man, oh man... The writers have some serious issues going on if they can't even add sleep/eat/pissing mechanics.

Seriously though, you people worried about little things such as plot holes need to relax. It's a game, and a damn good one at that.

Oh please, saying plot holes dont matter is stupid, why bother trying to wrote a decent story when its full of holes ? It ruins immersion to when you just stop and say "what the **** are they on about/doing" .


Besides BW is always praised as one of the best writers in the indusrty, they should be able to stand up to criticism, and prove it.

[Whatever42]

this isnt my name wrote...

ErebUs890 wrote...

I found a GIANT plot hole and it's been bothering me for some time. Shepard never uses the bathroom or even eats or sleeps!! Man, oh man... The writers have some serious issues going on if they can't even add sleep/eat/pissing mechanics.

Seriously though, you people worried about little things such as plot holes need to relax. It's a game, and a damn good one at that.

Oh please, saying plot holes dont matter is stupid, why bother trying to wrote a decent story when its full of holes ? It ruins immersion to when you just stop and say "what the **** are they on about/doing" .


Besides BW is always praised as one of the best writers in the indusrty, they should be able to stand up to criticism, and prove it.

I'd say his point has more merit than pretty much everything you've raised.

[piemanz]

this isnt my name wrote...

ErebUs890 wrote...

I found a GIANT plot hole and it's been bothering me for some time. Shepard never uses the bathroom or even eats or sleeps!! Man, oh man... The writers have some serious issues going on if they can't even add sleep/eat/pissing mechanics.

Seriously though, you people worried about little things such as plot holes need to relax. It's a game, and a damn good one at that.

Oh please, saying plot holes dont matter is stupid, why bother trying to wrote a decent story when its full of holes ? It ruins immersion to when you just stop and say "what the **** are they on about/doing" .


Besides BW is always praised as one of the best writers in the indusrty, they should be able to stand up to criticism, and prove it.

The problem is you cry plot hole even after all your arguments have been refuted.

[this isnt my name]

piemanz wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

ErebUs890 wrote...

I found a GIANT plot hole and it's been bothering me for some time. Shepard never uses the bathroom or even eats or sleeps!! Man, oh man... The writers have some serious issues going on if they can't even add sleep/eat/pissing mechanics.

Seriously though, you people worried about little things such as plot holes need to relax. It's a game, and a damn good one at that.

Oh please, saying plot holes dont matter is stupid, why bother trying to wrote a decent story when its full of holes ? It ruins immersion to when you just stop and say "what the **** are they on about/doing" .


Besides BW is always praised as one of the best writers in the indusrty, they should be able to stand up to criticism, and prove it.

The problem is you cry plot hole even after all your arguments have been refuted.

But they havent...

You know what, **** this, you cant convince biodrones, I will leave you in denial, good bye.

[ErebUs890]

this isnt my name wrote...

piemanz wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

ErebUs890 wrote...

I found a GIANT plot hole and it's been bothering me for some time. Shepard never uses the bathroom or even eats or sleeps!! Man, oh man... The writers have some serious issues going on if they can't even add sleep/eat/pissing mechanics.

Seriously though, you people worried about little things such as plot holes need to relax. It's a game, and a damn good one at that.

Oh please, saying plot holes dont matter is stupid, why bother trying to wrote a decent story when its full of holes ? It ruins immersion to when you just stop and say "what the **** are they on about/doing" .


Besides BW is always praised as one of the best writers in the indusrty, they should be able to stand up to criticism, and prove it.

The problem is you cry plot hole even after all your arguments have been refuted.

But they havent...

You know what, **** this, you cant convince biodrones, I will leave you in denial, good bye.

So long, farewell.

[Whatever42]

this isnt my name wrote...

But they havent...

You know what, **** this, you cant convince biodrones, I will leave you in denial, good bye.

Whew. I thought he'd never leave.

[Scar_Theory]

this isnt my name wrote...

piemanz wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

ErebUs890 wrote...

I found a GIANT plot hole and it's been bothering me for some time. Shepard never uses the bathroom or even eats or sleeps!! Man, oh man... The writers have some serious issues going on if they can't even add sleep/eat/pissing mechanics.

Seriously though, you people worried about little things such as plot holes need to relax. It's a game, and a damn good one at that.

Oh please, saying plot holes dont matter is stupid, why bother trying to wrote a decent story when its full of holes ? It ruins immersion to when you just stop and say "what the **** are they on about/doing" .


Besides BW is always praised as one of the best writers in the indusrty, they should be able to stand up to criticism, and prove it.

The problem is you cry plot hole even after all your arguments have been refuted.

But they havent...

You know what, **** this, you cant convince biodrones, I will leave you in denial, good bye.

Did you read any of what people have been posting? All of the things you consider plotholes can be easily explained. Just go back and play the games over again and read the codexes and such. I think the argument here is more of a misunderstanding of the plot and story than a bad move on Bioware or any such crippling of the series.

[kaotician]

To the issue of the point of Saren being ordered to find the conduit by Sovereign, and the arguments raised as to the point of the whole exercise, surely the idea is that a doorway into a place is also a doorway out of a place? ie, the Reapers didn't want anyone escaping or messing around with their plan prior to its initiation. In other words, as a tactical idea, isn't Saren instructed to 'go round the back and cover the back door', as it were?

[Whatever42]

kaotician wrote...

To the issue of the point of Saren being ordered to find the conduit by Sovereign, and the arguments raised as to the point of the whole exercise, surely the idea is that a doorway into a place is also a doorway out of a place? ie, the Reapers didn't want anyone escaping or messing around with their plan prior to its initiation. In other words, as a tactical idea, isn't Saren instructed to 'go round the back and cover the back door', as it were?

But their argument is that even looking for a back door was bad because they could be found out.  Of course, they could be found out trying to reprogram the Keepers. Or trying to smuggle in Geth and Krogran. Or they could be defeated trying to take the Citadel with a drop ship. But those are fine because we KNOW that the backdoor fails. We know this because it failed. Therefore it was a bad plan. Therefore they wouldn't have done it unless it were a plothole or bad writing.

The logic is pretty inescapable, I admit.

[Lapis Lazuli]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Tali found the Geth on a uncharted world,So she could have been a far shorter distance away from the citadel than Shepard arrived before Shepard and set up a meeting with Fist right away.

The Geth knew what happened on Eden Prime due to their instant nature of communication it is all damn convenient but not a plot hole.

I like this LOL

...and maybe there are time effects that we don't see addressed in the codex--something somehow related to sublight time dilation. Maybe limited FTL and mass effect relays have different effects on space-time intervals LOL

[M-Sinistrari]

This thread's a fascinating study on what people see and their interpretations on it.

My take on the storyline is once the initial signal to the keepers failed, that threw Sovereign for a loop enough to look into getting a local agent to find out what the hell happened. Going the Rachni route failed, but since it was handled as a more mundane level of fighting, it's not enough to really throw him off. Since he was already listening in on commchannels, he found Saren and likely had an opening angle on working with Saren's hate of humans. Since Saren's a Spectre, this gives Sovereign better access to find out what happened. This changed as Saren realized more about the Reapers and figures that going the servitude route's better than being reaped.

Through Saren, Sovereign finds out that it couldn't've been the current civilizations that tampered with the Keepers so that leaves the Protheans since the Keepers worked fine last go around. That leaves it likely that Sovereign was now wondering what the hell else did the Protheans do if they managed to somehow alter the Keepers since the Reapers are pretty big on their tech being the pinnacle of things and that during the actual reaping there was likely no opportunity for the Protheans to've done it during so that leaves it pretty clear some survived after the Citadel was cleared out.

So, by the start of ME1, it's still Saren piecing together what happened for Sovereign and is blundering around similar to Shepard. Since so little's left of the Protheans beyond the beacons, it fits as why they're being Saren's initial target. Whether he's able to share his Prothean visions with Sovereign's an unknown, but he's at least able to tell him enough that they're going to need something like the Cipher to piece it together as if there's no point to asking the Collectors since they're too far gone at this point even if initial indoctrination hadn't fried their minds, and Sovereign's knowledge of the Protheans will cover a lot but not be as inclusive of everything about them.

By the time Saren finds out about the Conduit and tells Sovereign, it's likely a big shock to the Reapers that a lesser species was able to replicate their relay tech, and gives added impetus to getting control of the Citadel since he's likely now really wondering what the hell else the Protheans might have lying about that the newer civilizations might not realized what they actually are.

Sovereign knows the current tech on ships is likely to maybe sting at most and goes charging in with the geth fleet while sending in Saren and a sizeable amount of Geth troops to ensure the Citadel arms remain open enough for him to lock on as well as cause chaos since everyone's expecting an attack only through the relays. We all know what happened next.

So, fast forward to ME2. The Citadel's key focus as an attack launchpoint's comprimised. The Keepers aren't listening to the Reaper signals and regardless of public statements, people are aware of the Reapers (There was that asari who published a holobook about the covering up). That makes the only advantage of taking the Citadel as a focal point for shutting down the relays, killing off the main leadership and having access to all Council space records. While the element of surprise tended to make things neat an quick in a Reaper perspective, at this point no matter how it's looked at, it's going to be a messy slog through. Since Shepard's a human and has been causing enough of a headache, it fits for the Harbinger to order a human reaper getting made since that'll cut down on the amount of trouble causing humans, distract Shepard and potentially have a new Reaper already in galactic space to implement anything. Well, we saw what happened with that, and now the Collectors as a usable resource are now gone.

Gunning for the Alpha Relay is likely just an attempt to get enough Reapers scattered around to get started. So, for guestimating towards ME3, while the Citadel's still a valid target, Earth now is one as well because it's the homeworld of those perpetually troublemaking humans and can strike a demoralizing as well as physical blow against the species if it's destroyed, though so far we've not seen how the Reapers are looking at the other galactic spacefaring civilizations. I can also see them monitoring the commchannels and potentially postponing an attack until they're sure Shepard's on trial on Earth since they can take out two troublesomes with one attack.

So, with all that said, I'm not seeing any huge plotholes. There are plenty of minor ones like Tali having the Eden Prime data. Even taking into account the speed of Geth communications, it's not reconcilable between days of her on the Citadel and the few hours since the attack and Normandy arrival to the Citadel. I can live with the minor ones.