219 réponses à ce sujet

[Cybermortis]

Note that both ME and DA2, that have the DRM, are games that once installed on a PC don't require a physical disk in the drive to play the game. The intent therefore was clearly to try and stop people from simply buying one copy, installing it and then passing the disk onto someone else. You can't do this with ME2 or DAO since you still need the disk to run the game.

Yes there are ways around the DRM. But the average customer isn't going to know how to do that, where as with some form of DRM all they'd have to do is install the game and pass it on.

[Ronin2006]

Oh and Mr Tijger, I've found a little quote that you might find interesting.

Chris Priestly wrote...
...
We appreciate your patience and feedback on this.  DRM is always a topic of much debate, even internally.  It requires a delicate balance between providing some level of IP protection while minimizing the inconvenience or intrusion to a player’s experience....

Perhaps you can care to explain to me how using DRM for IP protection isn't a way of saying that they are trying to prevent piracy?

You may have tried to sidestep the debate, but you certainly missed the point in doing so.

Modifié par Ronin2006, 02 avril 2011 - 06:15 .

[Paeyne]

An interesting and thoughtful review of many points that a large number of people have issues with.

Here is my take on the subject, for what it may be worth.

Mike Laidlaw dismissing some of the concerns of disillusioned DA O fans.

I admit that when I read this interview I was mildly insulted.  His tone, as I read it, did come across to me as dismissive.  However, I have read this kind of spin from so many publishers over the last twenty years that you really have to take it with a grain of salt.  If I were to offer him any advice, I would say that you can defend your position without trivializing the other sides concerns.  That's something many on this board could also learn.


The use of DLC at launch for an arguably incomplete game.

I don't think the Prince DLC really was game breaking in any way.  The story was very linear at its core and the presence or absence of Sebastion really had very little impact.  This DLC was a perk, as I understand it, for pre-ordering early.  It was a nice incentive for those who got it but I don't think those without it are really missing much.

Short development cycle. 

No matter how much you love the game or hate it, I think we can all agree that fifteen months to put a game together is extremely ambitious.  I think, given the time scale, that they concentrated on some things that didn't need to be changed and ignored some of the core things that would have improved the game.  Those 'things', of course, change depending on who you talk to.  Could they have benefited from more time?  Maybe, maybe not.  Sometimes taking more time does not equal better.  I will say that the game does not feel as cohesive to me as previous titles.  Whether that's the fault of a lack of time or the story style chosen is hard to say.

Trying to appeal to the masses.

You can't really blame them for wanting to broaden their fan base.  I do think they could have made some choices that would have brought new people to the RPG genre rather than changing core of the game to please an audience that may not buy the game anyway.  If you need a game where this has been done far more effectively, you need only look to Assassin's Creed 2.

"If you push a button, something awesome has to happen."

Instant gratification is what people want now a days.  I don't really mind this if it had been done well, but I don't think it was.  The spells are flashier, rogues leap on their prey, and fighters explode their opponents in gouts of blood and gore.  I guess you have to decide whether what happens when you push a button is really all that "awesome".  To me, awesome is stuff like finishing moves, special animations on critical hits, or impressive effects if you manage to get synergistic attacks off.  I don't remember seeing much of that.

DRM

I have the Xbox version so I can't really comment on this.  I will say that piracy is a huge problem.  I can't really blame Bioware wanting to protect their intellectual property, hard work and substantial monetary investment.  If that means that I am slightly inconvenienced I will live with that.


Those are my thoughts for what they are worth.

[ScotGaymer]

Paeyne wrote...
Mike Laidlaw dismissing some of the concerns of disillusioned DA O fans.

I admit that when I read this interview I was mildly insulted.  His tone, as I read it, did come across to me as dismissive.  However, I have read this kind of spin from so many publishers over the last twenty years that you really have to take it with a grain of salt.  If I were to offer him any advice, I would say that you can defend your position without trivializing the other sides concerns.  That's something many on this board could also learn.

Yeh I mean I agree here. It did come off as mildly insulting and rude, but I don't know if he actually intended it that way; or if perhaps I misunderstood the context of what he was saying.
Perhaps an interview or statement to clarify might clear it up for me.

The use of DLC at launch for an arguably incomplete game.

I don't think the Prince DLC really was game breaking in any way.  The story was very linear at its core and the presence or absence of Sebastion really had very little impact.  This DLC was a perk, as I understand it, for pre-ordering early.  It was a nice incentive for those who got it but I don't think those without it are really missing much.

Personally I dont think the Prince DLC added all that much to the game. I used him on my first play thru for what little of the game you could actually use him for; and he isnt all that exciting as a character.
He could have been done really well; helping him to decide "what to do" would have been really great but as with most things in DA2 it doesnt matter what you do or say; he goes ahead and takes the same path every time without any input even if he had agreed with you prior that he should probably go the other direction.

To be honest I was left feeling kind of flat where he was concerned. At the end when he demands I choose in his favour I was like "no duh im gonna choose against you cos I have more to care about where the other person is concerned."

Short development cycle. 

No matter how much you love the game or hate it, I think we can all agree that fifteen months to put a game together is extremely ambitious.  I think, given the time scale, that they concentrated on some things that didn't need to be changed and ignored some of the core things that would have improved the game.  Those 'things', of course, change depending on who you talk to.  Could they have benefited from more time?  Maybe, maybe not.  Sometimes taking more time does not equal better.  I will say that the game does not feel as cohesive to me as previous titles.  Whether that's the fault of a lack of time or the story style chosen is hard to say.

There is just no way you can say that the short development cycle didnt cause problems for this game; no way

Okay so there were other reasons but it could have been solved with a proper QA cycle and another 3 to 6 months development to polish the game. It wouldnt have felt as rough if it had been given a little longer.

Trying to appeal to the masses.

You can't really blame them for wanting to broaden their fan base.  I do think they could have made some choices that would have brought new people to the RPG genre rather than changing core of the game to please an audience that may not buy the game anyway.  If you need a game where this has been done far more effectively, you need only look to Assassin's Creed 2.

See I never understood that assertion that they wanted to appeal to a "wider" gaming Audience.

DAO was their best selling game every; and its sales were up there with the likes of Call of Duty, Halo, Warcraft, TES, Fallout, God of War, etc.
Given the sheer amount they sold with DAO, I really dont get how they could get an even wider audience than they got with DAO. It just doesnt make any sense to me.

What they did instead of getting the more "casual" crowd into the game, which argueably they were already into given the sales figures they had to be, they alienated most of them.

No sense whatsoever.

"If you push a button, something awesome has to happen."

Instant gratification is what people want now a days.  I don't really mind this if it had been done well, but I don't think it was.  The spells are flashier, rogues leap on their prey, and fighters explode their opponents in gouts of blood and gore.  I guess you have to decide whether what happens when you push a button is really all that "awesome".  To me, awesome is stuff like finishing moves, special animations on critical hits, or impressive effects if you manage to get synergistic attacks off.  I don't remember seeing much of that.

Yeh I agree with this. I didnt mind the combat; some of the things made me go "ooo funky hehe" but nothing really struck me a stellarly awesome.
And the whole exploding enemies into unappetizing meaty bits randomly was just jarring, weird, and not at all realistic, immersive, or awesome in any way shape or form. Its not even particularily gorey.
Gorey is lopping off an arm and seeing it go flying, and blood spurt from the wound in a kill bill manner; gorey is slicing off a head and seeing it go rolling away. Randomly unrealistically exploding enemies when they are bashed with a stave is NOT gorey, or awesome.

DRM

I have the Xbox version so I can't really comment on this.  I will say that piracy is a huge problem.  I can't really blame Bioware wanting to protect their intellectual property, hard work and substantial monetary investment.  If that means that I am slightly inconvenienced I will live with that.

Have a search for articles on DRM and piracy by Brad Wardell CEO of Stardock; and tell me again Piracy is a huge problem.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 02 avril 2011 - 11:47 .

[Horus Blackheart]

I understand there are always constraints with any commercial product. What I don't understand Is why the gaming industry seem to equate good change with 'lets go entirely in the other direction and turn up the WOW factor to 11 so we can grab more users. Frankly I think it's a flawed premise to assume that the casual market they want to attract with all this will even be remotely interested in this . Nor I'm I suggesting that casual gamers are neolithic in there tastes and aspirations.
For many people its comes down to time and social factors. They might have a few hours a week to game so in that time they want something to pick up and play. RPG's by definition require time investment even deablo . Changing a core product to chase an audience that will likely never have time to sit down and finish a game like daO Then turn around going OMG the numbers tell us people arnt finishing the game lets streamline . That's counter-productive, for two reasons

First You are assuming the reason people stopped playing was because the game was to complex or bad ignoring social and economic factors.

second By appearing to radically streamline based purely on meta data you alienate your core audience that you spent a massive investment of time and money attracting.

Note these are just my take on things I don't pretend its perfect or even all that accurate i'll let others decide for themselves. .
:

[CitizenSnips]

I'm actually surprised that I agree with most of these points.

[Horus Blackheart]

The scenario I described has been going on for quite a few years now. It only got blatant in the last 5 years or so however. It's like when Hollywood try to make more men interested in romantic comedy's simply by adding fart jokes and car chases. It is always a disaster, simply because its knee-jerk and over simplistic.

[neppakyo]

Horus Blackheart wrote...

The scenario I described has been going on for quite a few years now. It only got blatant in the last 5 years or so however. It's like when Hollywood try to make more men interested in romantic comedy's simply by adding fart jokes and car chases. It is always a disaster, simply because its knee-jerk and over simplistic.

I like fart and dick jokes, with car chases

[Sandmanifest]

The whole post was very well done, and I could not agree more especially about points 1 and 2. I remember feeling pretty insulted reading the interviews as well. I've also always had a problem with launch DLC, and I think it's complete bull****. That's one thing a really, really don't like about how EA does things.

[Horus Blackheart]

and that's good, just dont let a Hollywood PR hack hear you else we will get a ton of films with that thrown in for at least 5 years.

[Horus Blackheart]

EA have done some miss steps yes but imho they arnt as blatant or offensive as activison, not by a long way. I hope the bean counters change course long before we get to that point.

[Legbiter]

Too long.

Executive summary?

[CitizenSnips]

Legbiter wrote...

Too long.

Executive summary?

The current business decisions made by this company seem to be shallow and shortsighted.

[Legbiter]

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

Legbiter wrote...

Too long.

Executive summary?

The current business decisions made by this company seem to be shallow and shortsighted.

Ah ok.

[Horus Blackheart]

I thought my post was quite concise actualy.

[Ariella]

neppakyo wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Zeevico wrote...

I'm fine with a 2 year dev cycle and its consequences, but...
(a) The graphics in DAO were more or less fine. Why spend time redoing them so much, ground up?
( The same goes with inventory screens.
© And tactics screens.
(d) Faces/Armor/Etc: the graphics were okay by me.

Actually tactics is much better now if only for one addtion: dead status.

The reason for the redesign in graphics was one of the major feedback pieces that Bioware got was that DAO looked too generic and too washed out colorwise. Thus the redesign on the art.

In fact a lot of what they did mechanics wise was in response to fan feedback from DAO. Bioware's better at listening than most people give them credit for, especially right now.

Heh combat improved? Debateable. Seems like they went to the extreme opposite in response to DA:O combat.
like "Lets take meth, it'll be FAST, oh, and add mind numbing waves and waves of enemies that appear out of THIN air weeee, squeee herp derp"

My opinion. Just sayin'

Waves were in the console version for the larger fights in DOA due to memory concerns, and I always found that a lot more tactical that the huge mob of monsters coming at you all at once. It's once of the reasons I've always hated combat in CRPGs over the years and ended up using the "kill switch" cheat more than once in most Infinity engine games. The other problem of course was the AI for companions sucked, as does my micromanagement skill. I absolutely fell in love with the tactics concept in DAO, and when "dead" was added to the possible statuses for DA2, it made it that much easier to get my party up again in fights. Is the combat perfect, no of course not, but out of 2 play throughs I've only had mobs "appear out of thin air" in one combat. That's a spawn placement issue. The others climbing or jumping down from the sides of buildings makes perfect sense to me, and adds to the atmosphere of Kirkwall being a corrupt city.

As for speed, I played DAO to completetion again right before DA2 came out, on both my systems. There's no comparison. Targetting is better. In getting rid of that trundle toward the enemy, it did give combat a sped up feel, plus it gives more immediacy when the PC is bolting toward a target rather than stomping like she's carrying the weight of the world on her shoulders. And while that WAS the case ofr the Warden, it never really needed to be so literal in combat. Also the removal of the take downs. Thank God for that. The animation was nice, but it slowed combat down and didn't allow you to get to your next target quickly because of the canned slo-mo animation. Something that could cost a party member in combat, especially if you were facing things like Ogres, but still had other darkspawn around. Again, combat wasn't perfect, but I still honestly believe Bioware is still finding their way into the shape of the mechanics for DA universe. I do think that the defining aspect of those mechanics will finally be their unobtrusiveness, and that the DA universe is going to be more about the lore than the nuts and bolts.

[Horus Blackheart]

I'd rather have take down than constant blood bag critcals personaly. As for the point about 'The others climbing or jumping down from the sides of buildings makes perfect sense.' i'm not seeing it It might fit in jade empire because its consistent with the martal arts movie style its going for. We expect over the top action with a setting like DA yes, there are over the top moments but those have impact because the rest of the world is grounded. I.E you have a heavy sword there for the blows are heavy. you cant for example swing it around with wild abandon and still feel grounded (unless its DA2 aparently).

[pbpirate29]

Cybermortis wrote...

After my first playthrough I found the 'awesome' button on the PC.

It was labelled 'Exit Game'.

LOL

[planed scaped]

OP is made of truth and win.

[Ariella]

Horus Blackheart wrote...

I'd rather have take down than constant blood bag critcals personaly. As for the point about 'The others climbing or jumping down from the sides of buildings makes perfect sense.' i'm not seeing it It might fit in jade empire because its consistent with the martal arts movie style its going for. We expect over the top action with a setting like DA yes, there are over the top moments but those have impact because the rest of the world is grounded. I.E you have a heavy sword there for the blows are heavy. you cant for example swing it around with wild abandon and still feel grounded (unless its DA2 aparently).

Horus, one of the reasons it makes perfect sense to me is because in the fantasy genre rogues/theives/assasins and others up to no good at night tend to use the rooftops as not to be seen by the guard. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Raymond E. Feist's Riftwar Saga, but the rooftops and the sewers of the city of Krondor are referred to as the Thieves Highway, and that's only one example. So, Bioware is taking from common fantasy usage in this.

As for the issue with the two handers. I've seen mobs and NPCs carrying mauls, for example, and there's definately a weight went they swing them. I didn't notice any really lack of that, except in maybe some cut scenes in the beginning with Carver. I tend not to keep a two hand wielder in my party for various reasons, so it's probably not something I pay as much attention to. I will grant that Hayden's Razor just looks clunky as sin, and I have NO idea how it's even wieldable, except by magic. Only reason I ever give it to my two hander is because it's better than any other two hand at the beginning.

[Horus Blackheart]

For the two hander point just watch fenris swing his weapon around, serously. the swings or more to the point the interval between them is non exestant. As for point about rogues I get that they might be hidden but to just leap off a roof on top of a party is just plain silly. once perhaps but all the dam time? again not seeing it.

[chris1110022]

My answer to this is...Final Fantasy. Final Fantasy XIII was as I understand it a major departure from the previously established series, was much more action-oriented, used a simple button press and sold 5.5 million copies. So I think in other words, you are articulating your bias, not really sound advice. By the way...every time a sequel is made as an overhaul of the original, there's static from people who liked the original. It's cool...but games are a changing marketplace and you use what people like...Origins was never as highly rated as Mass Effect 2 so if you're building a game, what feedback do you examine? Reviews for the consoles called origins good...but flawed and outdated in play style. So while I'll agree, simply mapping a single button as awesome isn't exactly visionary, but neither is dragging around a clunky system Bioware developed clear back when they made Neverwinter Nights as I understand it...which was in 2002?

I'm just saying, if you're upset Bioware changed this game...that's cool but also their position is fair, too. You cannot just bend over backwards for the established fanbase when you're also trying to build a new one. Had Bioware not changed Dragon Age II substantially given the success of Mass Effect 2 and Final Fantasy XIII, Dragon Age II would have been rejected for what Origins was: graphically outdated, and as slow as molasses in January in pacing. So, I suppose when examining a business decision in a creative exercise, you have to not only look at the hard fanbase (which is where most of the anger is coming from) but also you have to look at your competition. Japanese RPG's are flat out not selling in North America BECAUSE THEY DON'T CHANGE...in fact it's so much so that JRPG has become a prejorative. Back in the PS1's heyday and also the PS2, JRPG's were great and fresh...then Oblivion migrated to the new powered up consoles, Fallout 3 was made, and so was Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2. Face it...as Final Fantasy XIII's success in a down market worldwide shows...action is the direction RPG's are headed...as a gamer, I welcome the change. I like my old PS1 games (I downloaded quite an impressive group off PSN) but those are for the purpose of nostalgia, not a fresh experience or a refuge. That's my rebuttal to your argument that this is a dumb business decision...look at who's performing in the market and who isn't and then get back to me. Oh, and I'm sure Bioware just like Square-Enix can withstand the criticism with the influx of sales revenues, I'm sure.

I know my argument reads like an epic crackback with a side of "move on" but it's not really intended to be, it's just reality. Games like films are ever-changing as they explore new ways to deliver essentially the same story to us..it's all been done before is my point. The direction is toward player engagement...now does Dragon Age II play like say, Xenogears? No it does not and that game was avante garde RPG if I ever saw one! The game system was like playing a fighting game, complete with combo's and power moves....if Bioware's devs (hint, hint) go back and play Xenogears...maybe map some combo's in addition to the snazzy button mapping of abilities...they'll have an instant classic, and it will make you probably angrier than...well, I won't finish that, you can. They have a workable model going forward to improve upon and a giant game world full of interesting mythology, places and people...if Origins was textually unbalanced visa vie fighting and Dragon II was unbalanced into action (although I don't really agree it is, but I'll accept the premise)...maybe Dragon III can merge both styles, or not..maybe Bioware can just improve what they've created here, which will also be excellent. Even if it doesn't...I'll still play Dragon Age III because I think Bioware has some very bright people working for them and I'd like to see what they do next.

Modifié par chris1110022, 03 avril 2011 - 03:57 .

[Zeevico]

Ariella wrote...

Zeevico wrote...

I'm fine with a 2 year dev cycle and its consequences, but...
(a) The graphics in DAO were more or less fine. Why spend time redoing them so much, ground up?
( The same goes with inventory screens.
© And tactics screens.
(d) Faces/Armor/Etc: the graphics were okay by me.

Actually tactics is much better now if only for one addtion: dead status.

The reason for the redesign in graphics was one of the major feedback pieces that Bioware got was that DAO looked too generic and too washed out colorwise. Thus the redesign on the art.

In fact a lot of what they did mechanics wise was in response to fan feedback from DAO. Bioware's better at listening than most people give them credit for, especially right now.

My point is that they didn't improve the graphics in redoing them. Everything is bare bones. Why not work from what you have instead and improve it, instead of substituting them with worse, boring graphics?

If you're going to invest time in a graphics upgrade, make sure it ends as an upgrade--or don't do it at all. If you're on a tight time frame you need to ensure that you invest as best you can in what works. The redesign isn't an improvement. Visually this game is worse than DAO. Isn't that amazing? A sequel with worse graphics than the original?

Is bare kirkwall an improvement over the cinematic landscapes in, say, the korcari wilds? Or Orzammar--which was very well designed, imo?

Maybe DAO's graphics pale in comparison to modern games (and the games of its time). But DA2's graphics pale in comparison to DAO's. And that's just silly. The money they spend on graphics could have been spent on making this game better in other ways.

So much about DA2 is uneven: the horrid, standard fetch quests, the lack of dialogue with NPCs. Kirkwall feels dead, not just visually but also in terms of its populace. Create a few proper tiles, borrow from the old tiles in DAO; use DAO characters as a graphical base, improve only on their faces. Exchange more than two lines of dialogue with non-essential NPCs.
 
If you have the time and money to make the graphics good, then by all means, improve them. If you don't--focus on what you can do.

Modifié par Zeevico, 03 avril 2011 - 04:46 .

[Horus Blackheart]

chris1110022 You put a well thought out argument and I respect your view. I would like to respond to what you say are my bias. When I posted I was attempting to be objective, and I would argue that just because somthing sells 5.5 million units it does not mean on the strenth of that number alone that the product was good or even well liked. We dont know how many copys were returned or sold on after thay left the retail channel.

i'm not arguing that change is bad I simply question the haphazard way it is done and the massive swing to favour one group of users over another. meaningfull change can be rapid, But with a fast pace that change is jarring. Change is better when you allow tastes to be refined slowly you cant just switch from making red wine, somthing you have a solid reputation for to going in to the wisky market. The demands and expectations are totaly diffrent, you cant just mash the two together and expect harmoney. It might look great on paper but personal tastes can;t be distilled in to a spreadsheet.

As for DA0 looking outdated thats due to the fact pre production started after kotor. It woult have been prohibtive to ajust things to keep up with the cutting edge gfx. remember developers want their games to sell as much as posable. It was worse for console users due to hardware limatations. DAO was intended to be pc onlly then at sompoint consoles were included.

I guess I will end with this: as a user I dont want to be told 'your tastes are less valid than the hip croud that will lap the changes up' thats insulting. i'm simply arguing for some consistency in direction, and that means not trying to balt on aspects of every other game out there to try and grab the mithical white whale. Its not going to happen.

Modifié par Horus Blackheart, 03 avril 2011 - 04:55 .

[Zeevico]

Horus Blackheart wrote...
As for DA0 looking outdated thats due to the fact pre production started after kotor. It woult have been prohibtive to ajust things to keep up with the cutting edge gfx. remember developers want their games to sell as much as posable. It was worse for console users due to hardware limatations. DAO was intended to be pc onlly then at sompoint consoles were included.

True. It's not a major complaint for me about DAO. Content>graphics. It's a complaint about DA2, whose visuals are worse than DAO (in my respectful view).