219 réponses à ce sujet

[Cody211282]

Blood-Lord Thanatos wrote...

Who the eff necro'd this abomination of a thread? Someone summon Moderatus, before it causes a cataclysm.

You have Ronin to thank for that.

[Nerdage]

Ronin2006 wrote...

I felt that he still believes that DA 2 was a good game, and thus the future games in the series are likely to be in the same direction, but with a few small amendments.

He said as much, and -- beyond the bugs -- you can't say as fact that it wasn't. It certainly had its problems, he says that too, but you can't equate "He doesn't share my view of the game" to "He refuses to see the truth!"

The fact that Mr Laidlaw felt the need to abstain from the forums in order to post in a professional manner speaks volumes about his character and his ability to handle widespread criticism in the heat of the moment (it's much easier to take a step back , then it is to face the fire and the wrath at it's most vicious).

So say he came on to the forums while those inconsiderate, self-righteous people were demanding he be fired ('facing the fire', as you put it), and tries to start a reasonable discussion, how do you see that ending? As much as he may have wanted to collect himself before posting, the forum also needed time to calm down before any real discussion could happen. Besides, have you ever had dozens of people you've never met making personal insults at you, demanding you lose your job? I think you're confusing being professional with being human.

[marshalleck]

nerdage wrote...

So say he came on to the forums while those inconsiderate, self-righteous people were demanding he be fired ('facing the fire', as you put it), and tries to start a reasonable discussion, how do you see that ending? As much as he may have wanted to collect himself before posting, the forum also needed time to calm down before any real discussion could happen. Besides, have you ever had dozens of people you've never met making personal insults at you, demanding you lose your job? I think you're confusing being professional with being human.

It's part of the job. If he can't handle it, he's not cut out for a highly-visible position like project lead or producer or whatever his official title actually was. No sympathy.

Besides, it's easy enough to filter the reasoned criticism from the insane ranting.

Modifié par marshalleck, 06 juin 2011 - 04:06 .

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

marshalleck wrote...

nerdage wrote...

So say he came on to the forums while those inconsiderate, self-righteous people were demanding he be fired ('facing the fire', as you put it), and tries to start a reasonable discussion, how do you see that ending? As much as he may have wanted to collect himself before posting, the forum also needed time to calm down before any real discussion could happen. Besides, have you ever had dozens of people you've never met making personal insults at you, demanding you lose your job? I think you're confusing being professional with being human.

It's part of the job. If he can't handle it, he's not cut out for a highly-visible position like project lead or producer or whatever his official title actually was. No sympathy.

Actually, I figured that Laidlaw was doing the sensible thing by avoiding the forums, as I know that were I in his postion, I would have avoided the forums because of the out of control flame wars and trolls spamming the boards. Laidlaw's Job does not mean that He has to stand for any abuse from pathetic gamers who can't shut up about their opinions. Marshalleck, I am not referring to you.

[marshalleck]

You're right, it was sensible to let things calm down for a while. It would have been almost impossible to have a conversation without it exploding into flames. That still doesn't mean he shouldn't be ready to face some heat for a product he had a direct hand in shaping.

[Firky]

marshalleck wrote...

It's part of the job. If he can't handle it, he's not cut out for a highly-visible position like project lead or producer or whatever his official title actually was. No sympathy.

I'd disagree with that, based on the idea that no-one should be subject to abuse in the course of doing their job.

I was a high school teacher for 6 years, in kinda a rough part of town, and faced weekly, sometimes daily, verbal abuse, not to mention occasional physical threats of violence. Although it happened all the time, no-one accepted it as "part of the job." A teacher's job is to teach, plan lessons, inspire learning, not put up a wall against abuse. Hence, the school had strict procedures in place as consequences for abusing a teacher (or another student) and they were followed; detentions, suspension etc. All of that disciplinary stuff was considered outside a teacher's role. (Because no-one should have to put up with abuse in the course of doing their job.)

[marshalleck]

It's the internet. I don't think Mr. Laidlaw has had to face an angry mob wielding pitch forks and torches in real life.

[Firky]

I find it worrying that the internet is becoming increasingly divorced from reality, and people think that's OK, but I guess that's another issue.

[marshalleck]

The internet has always been divorced from reality. It's why opinions--especially loud, obnoxious, incendiary ones--should be taken with a grain of salt. People say things online they would never have the guts to voice in real life. I'm speaking of course of some of the worst insults that were directed at Mr. Laidlaw--I don't know why he'd take them so seriously that he felt he needed to retreat. Perhaps he's just a genuinely nice guy who cares too much.

[Firky]

Just like people say to high school teachers, "teenage years are a difficult time, hormones are running wild" to explain/excuse it when a student gives you some crap. It's true, but it doesn't make it acceptable behaviour either. This particular school of thought was hammered home to me when I was teaching, because they were really clear on the idea that you shouldn't need to be "tough" to be a teacher. You could be whoever you were, as a person, and fulfil your role well, without having to "buck up" or learn to live with abuse. It was important.

[Sharn01]

It is unfortunate that the internet is a place where people say things they would never say in person most of the time. The argument goes both ways as well, for every post screaming in anger at how bad the game was there is another post screaming about how their opinion doesnt matter, and even the devs and moderators are making posts that they could never get away with when speaking to someone face to face.

[marshalleck]

Heh. I can easily imagine "suck it up, princess" leading to a heated--if not physical--exchange in real life.

[Firky]

I'm sure that this is as far as I can take the teacher analogy but, in the school where I worked, teachers would routinely snap too and say something inappropriate. Teaching is a tiring and demanding job. Was it OK to yell in a student's face or say something rude? No. Did it happen? Yes. I know I apologised to students on probably 4 occasions over 6 years for "losing it." The system was supportive of teachers in that situation. Not tolerant - and if it happened lots of times, or once in a really bad way, I'm sure there'd be consequences. But supportive. Just as they tried to help students who snapped just as much as they disciplined them, they'd make sure someone talked to the teacher and got to the bottom of the problem.

The internet is populated by humans. I just don't see why it needs to be devoid of humanity. I get that, sometimes, it is. Just not why it should just be accepted that that's the way it is.

Still, I'm probably very OT, so I'll shut up. I just don't believe that anyone should have to accept (or engage in) verbal abuse as part of the nature of their work. Whether or not verbal abuse is a reality, is a seperate issue.

[In Exile]

Ronin2006 wrote..
Are you sure you even read my post?

Yes. It read as if you were unaware of the concept of a shareholder derivative lawsuit.

Actually, if the fact that I wrote "*cough* "apology" thread" didn't clue you in to the fact that I personally don't think of it as such, and that I was making fun of it being referred to in this manner, then I'll explain it a little further.

You said, and I quote:

''My interpretation of Mr Laidlaw's response was that although he has
eaten some humble pie''

Humble pie:

''to apologize and face humiliation for a serious error''

So, based on the literal wording of your statement, it sounds as if you think it was on any level designed to be an apology or retraction for the direction of DA2.

But that wasn't it. It was a carefully crafted statement (I would wager someone from the in-house legal department had a look at it) that was directed toward the buyers of the game, partly to thank them for their support and partly to shore-up the part of the fanbase that was dissapointed about the quality of the features introduced in DA2.

Despite the vague nature of the letter, some people think that it is in some way a redeeming letter, and that perhaps all should be forgiven as Bioware strive to make a better game in the future.

The letter was very specific. It just wasn't binding in the sort of commitments it made. Again: google shareholder derivative lawsuit. If I was an EA investor and one of the project leads suddenly blasted his work, the company, or the product (in a way that could negatively affect sales), I would flip my ****.

For me personally, reading between the lines of the letter, I saw it as being from someone who is very stubborn and only grudgingly accepting of criticism for the simple fact that the criticism has become so overwhelming that he has to try to placate it somehow.  I felt that he still believes that DA 2 was a good game, and thus the future games in the series are likely to be in the same direction, but with a few small amendments.  The fact that Mr Laidlaw felt the need to abstain from the forums in order to post in a professional manner speaks volumes about his character and his ability to handle widespread criticism in the heat of the moment (it's much easier to take a step back , then it is to face the fire and the wrath at it's most vicious). 

Looking at any public statement from a company as large as EA as a comment made by a private individual and not as a comment made by the corporation through the individual is incorrect. As project lead, Mike Laidlaw addressed the direction of the product and the recognition that DA3 and subsequent DA2 products need to be of a higher standard.

[In Exile]

marshalleck wrote...

It's part of the job. If he can't handle it, he's not cut out for a highly-visible position like project lead or producer or whatever his official title actually was. No sympathy.

Besides, it's easy enough to filter the reasoned criticism from the insane ranting.

His fundamental responsibility is to the shareholders. That's his job. There is a media component to a lead video game designer, but that's a very different kind of discourse than a public post-mortem and generally managing the community reaction. After a product performing at the level of DA2, and with his general media exposure, Mr. Laidlaw's comments would be under intense scrunity. At that point, everything is walking a tightrope.

I would bet very good money if you PM'ed a developer on about a planned feature for DA2 or DLC you'd hear 'no comment' and then have a vague and nebulous statement like 'various implementations of feature x are being experimented with and we at Bioware are committed to a high quality user experience, etc. etc. etc.'

Otherwise, the general mantra is ''watch for future releases to judge the quality of what we produce' which is consistent for a company undergoing an intense post-mortem.

Modifié par In Exile, 06 juin 2011 - 05:12 .

[marshalleck]

Firky wrote...

Still, I'm probably very OT, so I'll shut up. I just don't believe that anyone should have to accept (or engage in) verbal abuse as part of the nature of their work. Whether or not verbal abuse is a reality, is a seperate issue.

I'm not so much saying he needs to "accept" verbal abuse as I'm saying it should be easy to shrug off the worst of it. Calling for his job doesn't tell Bioware how to improve the next game, so I don't know why A) anyone at Bioware would spend even 5 seconds thinking about those comments, and anyone making such comments should expect to have their opinions taken into consideration.

[Firky]

^ Well, we are in agreement there, for sure.

[Zanallen]

marshalleck wrote...

It's part of the job. If he can't handle it, he's not cut out for a highly-visible position like project lead or producer or whatever his official title actually was. No sympathy.

Besides, it's easy enough to filter the reasoned criticism from the insane ranting.

It actually isn't. He has no obligation to come on here and post. The devs do it because they want to.

[Persephone]

marshalleck wrote...

Heh. I can easily imagine "suck it up, princess" leading to a heated--if not physical--exchange in real life.

So this quote is still completely torn out of context?

It wasn't said as a reaction to DAII criticism, geez. And pretending otherwise is nonsense.

[Stanley Woo]

Please don't resurrect old threads. THank you.

End of line.