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[Akka le Vil]

Cpl_Facehugger wrote...

Counterpoint: Augustus Caesar. A skilled general and politician who created  perhaps the most infamous empire in the world.

Actually, Augustus was a rather weak general. His victories were mostly because he was smart enough to let his friend Aggripa, who WAS a good general, do the fighting, and because he was a consumed politician that managed to use his personnal prestige and Antony's upsetting Romans by adhering to Egyptian's cultural, to demoralize Antony's army.

If you want to get things straight : Octavian was a weak general and a good politician. Antony was a very good general (much better than Octavian) and a very bad politician.
If you want a better example to serve your point : Julius Caesar, who was BOTH a very good general and a very good politician.
Napoléon was not a particularly good politician, but he was an extremely efficient administrator and general.
Alexander was a fabulous general and a rather good politician.

But the point is : being one doesn't mean you're the other. They're mostly unrelated.

And Anora is a good politician and a good administrator, but a bad leader and an horrible person.

[TuringPoint]

The real issue is her speaking out against Loghain. Loghains betrayal of Cailan was politically motivated, and Cailan was nearly a son to him.



Even if Loghain wouldn't kill her, what about locking her up again? I think it wasn't mature for her to think Loghain would kill her, but I think she was very disturbed at the thought that Loghain was responsible for Cailan's death. If you talk to Loghain before the battle, Loghain seems to care about the king and respect him, as such, for his authority, but simply disagrees with him.



Then he lets him die.



If Loghain cares so much for his daughter, why doesn't he try to figure out why she's disappeared? I'm not saying he doesn't, but what's with that? Why should she risk that Loghain is the one behind her capture?

[TcheQ]

Alocormin wrote...

What are your thoughts on the Queen?  Does she seem like a tyrant?  Will she make a good ruler?  Would she make a good partner on the throne? Does she seem like a **** or a decent person?

Sometimes good leader's are complete ****es.  I mean, she wanted Alistair killed immediately

In AD&D, we would probably label her Lawful Neutral

[orpheus333]

She is an average queen at best. Concerned with little other than administration and the status quo. She didn't confront the dwarves after harrowmont shut of trade with the surface. Despite Alistair and I being around to aid her. She, over time, insighted more rebellion from the city elves.



Shes just average, nothing changes for the better in ferelden during her rule. And also i expect that she is barren. So dispite her almost convincing arguments about alistair bringing about civil war in the future. It will probably be her rule that does it.

[th3warr1or]

Alocormin wrote...

Either or both. People dont seem to get much impression of her. People seem to more often dislike her than like her. I think she's interesting and would like to hear others' perceptions of her, if any.

Her battle speech made me cringe, mostly for the voice acting.

Her voice acting was terrible. But I let Alistair kill Loghain, and married her.

[th3warr1or]

Alocormin wrote...

Either or both. People dont seem to get much impression of her. People seem to more often dislike her than like her. I think she's interesting and would like to hear others' perceptions of her, if any.

Her battle speech made me cringe, mostly for the voice acting.

Her voice acting was terrible. But I let Alistair kill Loghain, and married her.

[_purifico_]

good ruler, bad person.

[The Angry One]

[quote]Cpl_Facehugger wrote...

Exceptions usually mean that the rule is mistaken.[/quote]

No it doesn't or it wouldn't be an exception.

[quoteHow about Marcus Aurelius? Trajan? Hadrian?[/quote]

All of those had competent generals to lead their campaigns.

[quote]In American history, what of Eisenhower? Kennedy? [/quote]

Eisenhower was a mediocre president, Kennedy was never a general.

[quote]The royal army just got wiped out at Ostragar.[/quote]

And the Denerim guard? And The Bannorn?


[quote]There are other forms of leadership than military. It's just that there's not much those forms of leadership can do to counter-coup against a large army. [/quote]

It wasn't a coup, Loghain installed himself as regent with Anora's tacit approval.

[quote]Speak out in public and say... What, exactly? By the time she
realized that Loghain might have actually been responsible for
murdering her husband, the exigencies for speaking out against Loghain
had pretty much passed. And actually speaking out without any strong
and visible  would end up with her potentially dead or permanently
imprisoned.[/quote]

That she is Queen and Loghain has no claim to the regency.

[quote]I hope you're not saying she should immediately distrust her father before his craziness became evident.  I mean, before the craziness, Loghain was a pretty decent person. Initially she'd have no reason to disbelieve his story. [/quote]

And what the hel does that have to do with him becoming Regent?
If Anora held the true power then Loghain's regency is redundant. Why exactly does he suddenly have the right to take the throne aagainst the wishes of the Bannorn?

[quote]Why not? We saw that Loghain's troops were loyal enough to run away from Ostragar and leave their king to die. Hell, we saw they were loyal enough to believe Loghain's lies about the Wardens turning on Cailan when they were there to watch it all go down. Why should they be more loyal to their queen than their captain?  [/quote]

Because she's the ruler of Ferelden?
Troops in battle don't question their general, but realising that Loghain's own daughter opposes his obvious power grab would be a different matter.


[quote]It's the title that's important though. Remember how concerned everyone was with Alistair's blood.[/quote]

And? So? Therefore? They're concerned about Alistair's blood because it gives him a legitimate claim vs. Anora, not because they want him to sit on the throne and look pretty.
Did you even play the game? The Bannorn did NOT want Loghain to be regent.


[quote]Wasn't the "Alistair as King" stuff basically "Alistair becomes a popular king by spending time with the commonfolk rather than actually ruling like he should be doing"? Unless you harden him and turn him more like Anora? [/quote]

More like Anora? That's like saying good leaders need to be more like Hitler, there's a difference between ruthlessness to achieve goals to benefit the nation and being a selfish piece of crap.

[quote]I disagree. She showed herself very intelligent and shrewd in her decision making. Those are the traits you want in a ruler.[/quote]

How the god damn hell do you call a woman who throws her lot in with THE LOSING SIDE shrewd and intelligent?
She's a decent politician, sure. But she lets her personal goals and selfish desires override all else.
It is again only by writer's fiat that she isn't strung up from the roof of Ft. Drakon for her treachery.

[quote]Moreoever, she's so respected that even other nations admitted that she was the brains behind Cailan's throne, according to her codex entry. [/quote]

Respected by Orlais you mean. Big endorsement there. And ironic too.
As for being the real power, yes she was. Overseeing a Ferelden where elves are routinely raped and killed by the nobility. classy.
And oh yeah, she just let Loghain take over from her.


[quote]Her only crimes are loving her father too much, letting that get in the way of her otherwise rational decisionmaking process, and trying to secure the throne for herself; with her only doing anything remotely objectionable towards that end when Alistair shows what most people would consider quite unkingly traits.

None of that is remotely enough to justify turning her into a brood mother.    
[/quote]

Treachery, conspiracy, collusion with high treason, failure to assert herself as the rightful ruler, failure to put the good of the nation before herself. Shall I go on?

[barcooper]

The Angry One wrote...

She's either a tyrant or a terrible ruler, in that she either colluded with Loghain's obvious tyranny, or she was incapable of stopping him as Queen.
That he is her father has little to do with it, a competent ruler puts the good of the nation before family.

So in my opinion, she's the worst possible candidate to rule. Installed by marriage, accessory to tyranny. She has no place on the throne and preferably should be thrown into the Deep Roads with a sign saying "FREE BROODMOTHER" stapled to her back.
Not that I'm sadistic or anything..

best summarisation i have read!
never understood, how one could conclude she would be competent. sure she says it all the time, but that hardly makes it true.

[TuringPoint]

Thank God we don't live in a Democracy.



Oh, wait.

[Toroi]

Okay, I think many people are taking an overly naive view of both Anora, and Loghain.  First, Loghain: he's responsible for the death of the king, Duncan and probably hundreds of the royal army and gray wardens.  Then, usurping the throne.  He's also heavily involved in slavery.  Murder and treason of the worst degree along with human traficking.  Does it really matter that he feels "sorry" at the end?  Think about it.  Do we let murderers off in the real world because they realize they had done something bad?  Not at all.  I'm glad he realizes his mistakes at the end, but he more than deserves to be executed for his very serious crimes.   I think it could be a bit more tastefully done later by an official execution, but his crimes are never in doubt and sparing him seems to be a bit of a slap in the face to the families of all those dead men he betrayed.

Now, Anora.  I don't think we really know enough to judge if she's evil or not, really.  Remember, she is never the true ruler of Ferelden, her husband is.  Yes, she makes the decisions behind the scenes, but she is never the true power.  With her father declaring himself regent, she really doesn't have the backing to oppose him, and is locked away when she tries.  Its obvious she loves her father, so it is also easy to see how she'd believe the best of him at first.  She does eventually realize what he's become and seek to oppose him.  So far, I'd say none of this makes her evil.

Is she a schemer?  Heck yes!  She'd be a lousy queen if she wasn't.  And think of what she's got on the line - her life.  Generally, former queens don't have great lives if they are deposed.  Can we say locked in a tower for the rest of your life?  Or killed.  She has no option at this point but to try and end up on top.  I'd scheme with the best of them, or the worst of them, if that was what was at stake.  Remember, she's done a dang good job behind the scenes as queen so far, so its not like she's betraying Ferelden by wanting to be queen.  From her view, it must be a lot like "if I want to live, I'm going to have to remain queen somehow."   And let's face it, Alistair doesn't make a great first impression.  I can see her honestly thinking she'd make a better ruler than him.

I simply see no evidence that she is somehow ignoring Ferelden in favor of herself.  She's trying to save herself, of course.  So would most anyone else.  But she also sees the need to unite Ferelden and fight the blight.  There just aren't many good candidates around and I just can't see it as evil for her to want to remain queen.  And later putting down the food riots, well, that doesn't make her any more or less evil than all the other humans that see elves as lesser citizens.  And its not like she can just let them revolt as they please.  Could she be better?  Yes, but she's hardly an evil monster that so many seem to think.

Let's face it, Anora is human.  Is she the most honorable upstanding person that ever lived?  No, but wouldn't that be boring and unbelievable.  She's a queen that's been put in a very very dangerous position and is fighting the only way she can to stay alive, and, yes, save Ferelden.

[Invalidcode]

Her battle speech made me cringe, mostly for the voice acting.

Her voice acting was pretty good besides this part. To be fair battle speech acting isn't something easy to do.

[Korva]

Nyaore wrote...

I rather liked Anora to be honest despite her faults. She's a strong character, and very much a breath of fresh air compared to all the other 'Queen/Princess' archetypes you see in most media.

This, I agree with at least in part. I'm really sick of the all too common meek little trophy/damsel/enabler girls that pass for female characters in fiction. Anora has focus and brains and skill and refuses to be a worthless silent shadow that only exists to look pretty and spit out sons. Good on her!

But, she cannot be entirely as competent as people claim -- else why did she not see what her father and his lackeys were planning and doing even before Ostagar? Or did she at least suspect something yet did nothing because she wanted to stay firmly in power? That would be even worse.

My problem with her is that she simply is not trustworthy in any way. And she is her father's daughter, in the sense that she seems to be 200% certain that she and ONLY she is qualified to take charge, period, and Maker help you if you cross her or she even thinks you may cross her, because she will stab you in the back and do her best to get rid of you. That is not someone I want in any position of power. The way I see it, it is easier for a good guy with low self-esteem and no leadership experience to "grow into" the crown than it is to break an arrogant power-freak of their entitlement complex.

I could like her even if she isn't "likeable",  if she gave a more trustworthy impression and wasn't so totally "me first". Would she sacrifice her life and limb for her people? I just can't see that happen. Would she allow more "purges" in the Alienages when the elves cannot take the crimes against them anymore? How do the city elves fare when she gets the throne?

I might consider hooking her up with Alistair in a future playthrough with a more pragmatic character, but in my first/"canon" game, Alistair rules alone.

[Curlain]

With Anora I knew she was untrustworthy when her maid with the whole line about rescuing her (true or not, it just screamed trap to me, which it kinda was), and I knew she was someone to be dealt with carefully. She's someone I certainly wouldn't ever wait to trust my life or anything else to, she's to focused on what's politically and personally good for her, it does make her a good politician. However I'm not sure she was a good ruler, because the only one you find this out from is Anora herself, who's hardly a humble, shy and retiring type, but definitely believes in herself. However, I see no evidence that she was necessarly ruling, only that she thought she was, and she was easily manipulated out of power by her father (though admitedly he knows her so he has that advantage), when I think she was assuming she would take power. It's a main reason she seeks the PC out, to help her regain power.



I think Anora is to much like her father personaly, but worse in a way in that she is primarily concerned only with her position and power rather then Ferelden like Loghain is. Both Loghain and Anora are great as commanders and someone who advises the ruler, they provide said ruler with that absolutely pragmatic and ruthless point of view that is needed, however such people in my opinion generally make bad rulers or leaders, because they lack the humanity to see the wider picture. How will this action fit into the larger scheme of things, how will it impact other decisions or people, is the cost worth the loss, do you destory what you are fighting for doing it, and is there a compromise. People like Loghian and Anora don't think in this way, they see a cause of action, see it sloving the immediate issue and pursue it, it make Loghain a great commander, and Anora a great political operator and survivor but it doesn't give them the humanity to see wider perspectives and conquences.



That was why Maric and Loghian were a great partnership for Felerden in the end, Loghian gave Maric the necessary pragamtic viewpoint and cold view on events, but Maric could balance it with a wider perspective.



Anyway, those are my thoughts on it

[voidwarrior]

Elanareon wrote...

Haha Queen Anora is my wife!! And im the next king of Ferelden.

Lol. You mean you are her "husband"  and consort king. Which requires you
to submit to her will, as she rules while you are a mere figurehead.

[Willowhugger]

I think it could be a bit more tastefully done later by an official execution, but his crimes are never in doubt and sparing him seems to be a bit of a slap in the face to the families of all those dead men he betrayed.

For me, it was a Return of the Jedi moment. Lord Cousland had just butchered Arl Howe in his estate, avenging his family and all of the Tevinter mages. However, he'd already let go the Tevinter Mage Supreme because at this point, he was just sick to death of all of the slaughter. Yes, killing Loghain was "justice" but the justice Fereldan sucks ass as its been repeatedly shown.



Loghain was a powerful asset who saved all of Fereldan once. If that wasn't worth a pardon then I don't know what was. Besides, he was stripped of his title and possessions as a result of his crimes.