240 réponses à ce sujet

[CChocobo]

You guys are wayy to mean towards the lil ol' Queen.

big deal she betrays some of you [never betrayed me] She's playing the game called "politics" and by marrying her you're one step ahead of her so in the end you play it better. Or if you get Alistair to become King you play the game better than she does.

[Akka le Vil]

The Angry One wrote...

Loghain, despite being completely wrong about everything, at least believed he was doing what was right.

Well, he was SAID to believe what he was doing was right.
In the game, his actual acts simply didn't went along that. It may be a writing flaw, but he didn't felt at all consistent with his supposed beliefs. Raw, total insanity was the only plausible explanation to the obvious blunders and inconsistent character lines he was filled with, not righteousness.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

All she ever does is plot and scheme to maintain her cosy lot in life, she doesn't give a damn about the country or her responsibilities.

All the epilogues with "Anora as queen" disagree with you. She ends up being a very good ruler who is well loved by her people. 

Granted she cracks down on the elves later on due to food riots, but that's pretty part and parcel for any sort of medieval-style ruler. I'd be surprised if she didn't crack down on the elvish riots. 

Of course, if I had my way, I'd have sold all the elves to Tevinter long ago. Even the Dalish. Well, those who survived the great purge that gave me acess to my werewolf armies at least. 

Modifié par Cpl_Facehugger, 21 novembre 2009 - 09:12 .

[sylkwyrm1]

Akka le Vil wrote...

That he is her father has little to do with it, a competent ruler puts the good of the nation before family.

Especially considering the very reason she holds her father is such a high regard was that he was supposed to think of his country first, and that her only argument for being named as ruler is that she pretends to be competent and efficient and placing the good of the nation above anything.

So you can add "hypocrite" to the long list of her personnal flaws.

So in my opinion, she's the worst possible candidate to rule. Installed by marriage, accessory to tyranny. She has no place on the throne and preferably should be thrown into the Deep Roads with a sign saying "FREE BROODMOTHER" stapled to her back.
Not that I'm sadistic or anything..

Amen, sister !

sylkwyrm1 wrote...

i'd have liked the option to kill her and then landsmeet option

[persuade/lie] She was killed by arl howe, as you well know. She never could accept what you did to Cailan could she, Loghain?

or something to that effect for the bad guys

probably would have made him attack then and there, and outright refuse becoming a grey warden, coulda been a nice outcome

Amen bis ! Just how I would have LOVED this :x

Bis? BIS?! what is that bro+sis? you been reading my romance related posts?

[sylkwyrm1]

Cpl_Facehugger wrote...

All she ever does is plot and scheme to maintain her cosy lot in life, she doesn't give a damn about the country or her responsibilities.

All the epilogues with "Anora as queen" disagree with you. She ends up being a very good ruler who is well loved by her people. 

Granted she cracks down on the elves later on due to food riots, but that's pretty part and parcel for any sort of medieval-style ruler.

if you marry her to Alistair things greatly improve for the elves, at least they did for my ultimate sacrifced elf mage

[The Dead Milkman]

In reality it was Loghain ruling the nation. Anora said as much herself. I think the Queen is an uppity ****. I seriously hated her after my first playthrough. She's a spoiled brat who only wants power.

I think Alistair would make a much better ruler. Since he's reluctant and views it as responsibility rather than birthright. He's more like Maric than Anora ever would be.

Modifié par The Dead Milkman, 21 novembre 2009 - 09:15 .

[Cpl_Facehugger]

sylkwyrm1 wrote...


if you marry her to Alistair things greatly improve for the elves, at least they did for my ultimate sacrifced elf mage

Interesting. I never actually got her to marry Alistair, simply because I didn't have the balls to kill Loghain in front of his daughter. Not after he finally realized just how wrong he's been. 

[sylkwyrm1]

you can arrange the marriage harden alistair and then spare loghain, apparently he will still leave the party but the wedding will continue, i suspect this is the best possible outcome for a good non-noble, no morrigans offer, giving loghain the chance to redeem himself by sacrificing himself for his country etc,



not done it yet will do on a playthrough after i've married alistair, not sure whether hardening him will still make his and anoras marriage as good for everyone as it is otherwise

[Akka le Vil]

Cpl_Facehugger wrote...

Interesting. I never actually got her to marry Alistair, simply because I didn't have the balls to kill Loghain in front of his daughter. Not after he finally realized just how wrong he's been.

Coward.
Both of them deserve it, and they had done much worse to many more people. Your mercy is an insult to their victims

[Vormaerin]

Anora is a pretty cool character. Contrary to previous assertions, she neither colludes in Loghain's tyranny nor does she fail to oppose it. We have cut scene where she challenges her father and she ends up locked up by Howe precisely because she is working against them. She doesn't openly challenge them because that's stupid. The royal army died with Cailen and the soldiers around Denerim are her father's and Howe's. Arl Eamon is the only one standing up to her father at all successfully and she arranges contact with him at soon as its possible.



She's rightfully distrustful, though, because she knows Eamon could chose to punish her with her father. She thinks Alistair is a spineless git, which is a pretty reasonable thing to believe based on his past actions and demeanor. She thinks she'd be the best choice for ruler and she likes being Queen anyway.



She doesn't betray you if you deal straight with her. But saying "I'm going to put an incompetent, inexperienced doofus on the throne" or telling her "I'm going to execute your father no matter what" results in her deciding you are a threat to her and to the country. And she's right.



The only thing she does that is remotely dubious is demand Alistair's life and she backs off that if you ask her to.

[The Angry One]

Vormaerin wrote...

Anora is a pretty cool character. Contrary to previous assertions, she neither colludes in Loghain's tyranny nor does she fail to oppose it. We have cut scene where she challenges her father and she ends up locked up by Howe precisely because she is working against them. She doesn't openly challenge them because that's stupid. The royal army died with Cailen and the soldiers around Denerim are her father's and Howe's. Arl Eamon is the only one standing up to her father at all successfully and she arranges contact with him at soon as its possible.

She ends up locked up because she put herself in that position in the first place.
Were she at all effective as ruler she'd have the knowhow and connections to tell Loghain and Howe to take a walk off the highest floor of the royal palace.
Instead she meanders around when he becomes regent and only does something about it when HER OWN POSITION is directly threatened.

She's rightfully distrustful, though, because she knows Eamon could chose to punish her with her father. She thinks Alistair is a spineless git, which is a pretty reasonable thing to believe based on his past actions and demeanor. She thinks she'd be the best choice for ruler and she likes being Queen anyway.

Alistair is a Grey Warden who has more courage in his pinky finger than she has ever demonstrated. She has no reason to think that, other than her own arrogance.

She doesn't betray you if you deal straight with her.

Yes she does.

But saying "I'm going to put an incompetent, inexperienced doofus on the throne" or telling her "I'm going to execute your father no matter what" results in her deciding you are a threat to her and to the country. And she's right.

The only thing she does that is remotely dubious is demand Alistair's life and she backs off that if you ask her to.

Her obvious jealousy of the man who has a rightful claim over hers is the only thing showing here.
That Alistair is incompetent is the opinion of biased players who have nothing to back it up, as for her father. He's a tyrant. If she had ANY consideration for the wellbeing of the nation she'd understand that Loghain needs to be neutralized one way or another.
She is a selfish fool who puts her own needs ahead of anything else, and that's the kind of leader nobody needs.

Modifié par The Angry One, 21 novembre 2009 - 09:30 .

[Akka le Vil]

Vormaerin wrote...

She doesn't betray you if you deal straight with her. But saying "I'm going to put an incompetent, inexperienced doofus on the throne" or telling her "I'm going to execute your father no matter what" results in her deciding you are a threat to her and to the country. And she's right.

You're a threat to the country because you don't want someone whose crimes would take a year to list to get away from it ?
Wow.

And the real reason she wants the throne is the power, NOT the good of Ferelden. Alistair being weak is only a pretext.

[Dherelv]

Well.. I think she is a ***** tbh.



First time i released her from the Arl's house in Denerim, i tryed to reason with that Logain's partner, by saying that the Queen was held captive. She just denied me at the spot! And she even said i was a kidnapper! The hell with that ffs.



Well, i got killed by the guards (just too many of them) and i had to go back, then i decided to turn myself in ... but the bad impression remained...



Alistar for King!

[Dherelv]

double post... sorry

Modifié par Dherelv, 21 novembre 2009 - 09:33 .

[screwoffreg]

Just marry her as a human noble and force her to wake up every morning to your lovely visage.  The ultimate punishment...

[The Angry One]

screwoffreg wrote...

Just marry her as a human noble and force her to wake up every morning to your lovely visage.  The ultimate punishment...

I wouldn't go for that even if I played a male noble.
I mean, she'd probably spike your drink with spider venom the very next day.

[UnAffectedFiddle]

I find it odd she quickly claims Alistair is unfit to rule because of his temper tantrums and your emotions are clouded. Then does a 180 and claims her father should be spared and not killed for regicide, mass murder, civil war and god knows what else.



Heloooo, double standards you spineless little banshee.

[deltaxsi]

 She is her father's daughter.

Loghain delusionally  thought HE was the only one who could save Ferelden from both the Blight AND Cailin (who keeps bringing in these 'allies' like Orlesians and Grey Wardens who Loghain also thinks thinks are threats).  So he pits his his enemies against each other, thinking they'll weaken each other enough for him to take down whomever comes out on top.  Unfotunately, the Blight wins.

Anora see's herself as Ferelden's only savior, and Alister as her greatest threat.  If you notice, she hangs you out to dry against Ser Catherine ONLY if Alistair is in the party.   If he's not there, she slips out early.  She literally tries to execute him right there, and if the PC is caught in the cross-fire, so be it.  But if she can get the PC to support her for the thone, then all the better for her.

She truly is evil, by looking out for herself first and other's who have/will done more for the country second (Alister, who also has the RIGHTFUL claim to the thone).  Or she's just deluding herself as badly has her father is.

I'd like to lock her and Morrigan in a small closet for a while and see what happened.  Just thinking of the two of them trapped in there, in close quarters, with the temperature rising, and tempers flaring right along with their nostrils . .. . ..  excuse me.  Time to head back to my tent for some 'Ohgrain Time'.

[Vormaerin]

The Angry One wrote...

She ends up locked up because she put herself in that position in the first place.
Were she at all effective as ruler she'd have the knowhow and connections to tell Loghain and Howe to take a walk off the highest floor of the royal palace.
Instead she meanders around when he becomes regent and only does something about it when HER OWN POSITION is directly threatened.

Alistair is a Grey Warden who has more courage in his pinky finger than she has ever demonstrated. She has no reason to think that, other than her own arrogance.

Yes she does.

Her obvious jealousy of the man who has a rightful claim over hers is the only thing showing here.
That Alistair is incompetent is the opinion of biased players who have nothing to back it up, as for her father. He's a tyrant. If she had ANY consideration for the wellbeing of the nation she'd understand that Loghain needs to be neutralized one way or another.
She is a selfish fool who puts her own needs ahead of anything else, and that's the kind of leader nobody needs.

I know you vehemently believe this, but its flat out wrong.   She doesn't have soldiers of her own to oppose them and she initially believes her father, because she doesn't have any reason not to.   However, she realizes pretty quick that he's off his rocker and starts working against him.    Even with you and her working together, it takes military force to get Loghain and Howe out of the picture.   Just where was she supposed to get that military force, since the royal troops died at Ostagar and Howe's and Loghain's didn't?

Alistair is spends the entire game whining about his responsibilities and doing what he's told by others.   He's brave in combat, but a wimp in conversation.    Which of those do you think being king involves more?    She has every reason to believe he'd be a weak king.   Grant was a great general, but a lousy President.

There is no evidence that Alistair's claim is more valid than her's.   He's illegitimate.   There's nowhere in Europe that bastards have a claim in a single inheritance system.   Most places wouldn't accept her claim to /rule/, but she'd remain a Queen.    But then most of Europe wouldn't accept a ruling woman at all, so...    Fact is, if this was medieval Europe the person with the best claim would be Eamon or Teagan with Anora a distant second and Alistair not even in the picture.

No one has shown any evidence that she betrays you if you don't refuse to deal with her.   And she clearly thinks her father can't be reasoned with...that's why she's dealing with you.   That doesn't mean she wants him executed as a traitor.   She accepts his death at the Landsmeet, but that doesn't mean she's going to connive with you if you state in advance that you are going to kill him no matter what.   Its not even the best outcome to do so...conscripting him into the Gray Wardens is a lot better for the country that chopping his head off.  Riordan is definitely right about that.

You haven't produced any evidence whatsoever that she is especially selfish, much less that she is a fool or puts her own needs above anything else.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

The Angry One wrote...


She ends up locked up because she put herself in that position in the first place.
Were she at all effective as ruler she'd have the knowhow and connections to tell Loghain and Howe to take a walk off the highest floor of the royal palace.

What exactly do you want her to do? Loghain and Howe have the soldiers and hence, have the power. There's not exactly too much that "connections" would help with. She could publically denounce Loghain, but that would just be tossing her influence away for nothing (until there's a viable contender to Loghain, ie Alistair.) The fact is that Loghain is immensely popular; enough so that even his blatant lies like "The Wardens betrayed Cailan to the Darkspawn!" are believed even though anyone with an ounce of [cunning] would realize that the sole purpose of the Grey Wardens is to destroy Darkspawn.  

In the end she does the only thing she *can* do - that is, speak with her father and try and turn him from this mad quest of his. 

And that ends up with her locked up and possibly slated to be executed.

Nevermind that she doesn't even have any *proof* that Loghain is doing anything wrong initially. She's got nothing but a suspicion that maybe Loghain killed her husband. By the time she's seen enough to know what's really going on, Loghain's entrenched himself too well.

Her obvious jealousy of the man who has a rightful claim over hers is the only thing showing here.
That Alistair is incompetent is the opinion of biased players who have nothing to back it up, as for her father. He's a tyrant. If she had ANY consideration for the wellbeing of the nation she'd understand that Loghain needs to be neutralized one way or another.

She had a valid point. Alistair could easily be a threat to the throne.  He's got the bloodline and she doesn't. To a lot of nobility, blood matters far more than competence. And really, I'd argue that besides blood, she's got far more of a right to the throne than Alistair does. She's been the brains behind Cailan's kingship for some time; she knows how the Ferelden political structure works. She was already married to the king so leadership should naturally devolve onto her anyway too. She's also the daughter of the famous and much-loved (until he went crazy anyway) Teryn Loghain, a commoner who won a Terynship precisely because he was such a formiddable warrior.

Alistair, to compare, has blood backing him, and that's it. Not even legitimate blood. He's got the blood because Maric couldn't keep his fly shut. He doesn't have wealth, nor does he have experience running a nation. He doesn't even have experience running an army. He's the quintessential lieutenant. A good, reliable person. The kind of man every CO wants as their second. Not the kind of  man suited for the upper echelons of command. Alistair's a good man, but oftentimes you want a ruler who *isn't* a good man; see the Harrowmond/Behlen epilogues for reasons why.

As for Alistair being incompetent... He ends up not being so, but you certainly couldn't tell that from talking to him. he has a terrible lack of understanding of essential concepts like realpolitik, and he has tempertantrums at the player sparing his enemy's life even after he's potentially spent the entire game watching the player spare his enemies' lives. He also has no experience ruling; he even says he likes following more than leading, when Morrigan calls him on it.  

He's a good person... But then, Harrowmont was a good person, and we all know what happens to him. Alistair is frankly lucky that he doesn't lead Ferelden into an Orzammar-style civil war through his naivety and lack of leadership experience. 
 

She is a selfish fool who puts her own needs ahead of anything else, and that's the kind of leader nobody needs.

Again, the epilogues where she becomes queen all disagree with you. She turns out to be a much loved and very effective queen. 

[ReubenLiew]

She didn't sell me out to Cauthrien even with Alistair in the party. Did you so happen to tell Ser Cauthrien that you were rescuing the queen then asking her to back you up, even though she told you but 5 seconds ago not to?

[Jacks-Up]

Alocormin wrote...

What are your thoughts on the Queen?  Does she seem like a tyrant?  Will she make a good ruler?  Would she make a good partner on the throne? Does she seem like a **** or a decent person?

She was the only one available to be put on the throne at the end and I wanted to pull an Arthas & kill her I was disappointed I couldn't.

[sylkwyrm1]

she does not betray you cuz alistairs there, if you don't tell ser cauthrin that anora is there she doesn't betray you at all.



she says when you first ask her why she's dressed as a gaurd that howes men would likely kill her on sight and loghains men would return her to the palace where her father would likely have her killed,



if you force her to betray you she gives you a telling off after you escape the fort saying "what about the whole point of my disguise did you not understand?" (and she managed to escape the makers evil twin sister..uh..ser cauthrin somehow if you did turn her in)

[Vormaerin]

Dherelv wrote...

First time i released her from the Arl's house in Denerim, i tryed to reason with that Logain's partner, by saying that the Queen was held captive. She just denied me at the spot! And she even said i was a kidnapper! The hell with that ffs.

Of course she did.   She told you the absolute worst outcome of this whole thing would be to have her taken back to her father with evidence she was conspiring with the Gray Wardens.  And you just arranged for exactly that...

[MBirkhofer]

I think the character was done fairly well.

And is reasonably likeable.



Its asserted in a number of places that shes a good Queen. Prior to endgame, theres a codex that talks about how shes respected in other nations. As well as the people themselves respect her. She says she was the real brains behind the softer Cailan. And there is no reason to believe that isn't true. she stands up to her father and against him.

One of the reasons players don't like her, is you are trying to take away her power and undermine her, and shes responds in kind, and can become a bit of an aggressor towards you. Hence people calling her power hungry. But consider, shes already Queen. Of course shes not going to want to give that up.



The epilogue does her justice as well, continuing that is she is a good queen. The only blemish in my version was being forced to come down hard on a riot in the Elven alieange during a famine.





The writing can be a bit spastic. for example, trying some differant versions, She demanded Alistars head after I considered letting Logain live at the landsmeet, and Alister freaked and and said he was going to leave. Every other option, is marry him, or swear loyalty. but let loghain live, and suddenly she insists on killing Alistar. Bizarre.