240 réponses à ce sujet

[Cpl_Facehugger]

MBirkhofer wrote...

but let loghain live, and suddenly she insists on killing Alistar. Bizarre.

That makes some sense. Remember at that point, Alistair was impulsively claiming the throne for the express purpose of putting her father to death. The whole "What? I don't believe this! You're letting him live? YES?!? Fine then, I don't want to be king, but if I have to be king to make sure he gets the death he deserves, so be it!" 

He just proved that he's not remotely reasonable to her mind. Remember that a lot of Loghain's atrocities aren't nearly as meaningful if you don't have a personal attachment to them. (Although indirectly aiding the blight makes him responsible for all those innocent girls who are going to get turned into broodmothers, and hence I think I need to burninate him on my next time around.) 

[Vormaerin]

Well, she's concerned that he'll raise another revolt or his kids will. But she backs off without any protest... its pretty much a ploy to get Alistair to renounce his and his heirs' rights formally before the Landsmeet. Its about the same thing as Alistair locking her in a prison tower in some endings.

[ReubenLiew]

What I find odd though is how one can find Alistair so emotionally attached to a father figure go to great lengths to see him avenged as acceptable behaviour and yet not see the virtue of a daughter going great lengths to save hers not.



And vice versa too, just so you know you're part of it too! Both were very devoted to their father figure, really it's down the player to weigh on just how much either one is justified.

[Melra]

I would've killed her off the second she chose to abandon me to the mercy of Loghain's men, if I didn't think that Alistair needed someone to work as his brain, when my PC wouldn't be around.

[sylkwyrm1]

true, there is the issue that one father figure died because he was guilty of dying trough betrayal while fighting for his country and the other father figure was gonna die for being guilty of treason, regicide, mass murder, salving, torture, assassination.. there's probably more

[ReubenLiew]

Can't that be said of your pc as well? You tried to abandon her to the mercy of ser Cauthrien by revealing her, after she went through the trouble of telling you to keep her identity secret so she wouldn't be caught by her father and arl howe's men?

And this is her fathers second hand woman at that.

[TuringPoint]

Queen Anora never fights an unreasonable fight. She picks her battles. Why can't people see that? When she accepts you as her consort, for one, she seems to think you'd be a strong candidate. If you die, she doesn't take any consort ever.



To say she is such a vile selfish person is unjust. In the epilogue she puts into place many good, progressive things that help Ferelden. She believes herself a good ruler, and I would tend to agree with her. I think she's fascinating.



The reason she wants to kill Alistair is because of the fit Alistair throws if you don't kill Loghain. He makes it clear he would fight for the throne for revenge, so she sees that he can't do that in the future. You can save Alistair, as far as I know you don't even need to do a persuade check.

[Vormaerin]

I find Eamon to be the real scheming git. He's the one who stashes the bastard in the temple for later use. He's the one who lets Alistair grow up as a spineless git with no leadership skills. He's the one who insists that Alistair take the throne anyway. He's the one who insists we deal with Anora. And, funnily enough, he's the one who stays behind as "special advisor" to the easily manipulated King if you succeed in putting Alistair on the throne.

[ReubenLiew]

sylkwyrm1 wrote...

true, there is the issue that one father figure died because he was guilty of dying trough betrayal while fighting for his country and the other father figure was gonna die for being guilty of treason, regicide, mass murder, salving, torture, assassination.. there's probably more

Now now, the issue I tried to bring up wasn't whether one deserved it or not, it's simply that people are unwilling to accept Anora's behaviour of going extreme lengths to save  her father and yet righteously call Alistairs extreme behavious completely acceptable because he's being a good son. Is she not being a good daughter as well?

Just playing both sides, is all. And I do think Loghain deserved to die, just probably not right there at the landsmeet. Messy business.

[sylkwyrm1]

Melrache wrote...

I would've killed her off the second
she chose to abandon me to the mercy of Loghain's men, if I didn't
think that Alistair needed someone to work as his brain, when my PC
wouldn't be around.

that only happens  if you're a short attention spanned idiot who wasn't listening when she explained the reason for her disgui... ooh shiney...

Modifié par sylkwyrm1, 21 novembre 2009 - 11:03 .

[ReubenLiew]

sylkwyrm1 wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

Can't that be said of your pc as well? You tried to abandon her to the mercy of ser Cauthrien by revealing her, after she went through the trouble of telling you to keep her identity secret so she wouldn't be caught by her father and arl howe's men?
And this is her fathers second hand woman at that.

that only happens  if you're short attention spanned idiot who wasn't listening when she explained the reason for her disgui... ooh shiney...

+1

[PuffyTail]

I didn't trust Anora enough to even give her a chance on the throne at Landsmeet (although I lied and told her I'd support her to prevent any scheming leading up to it). I was convinced that her first act as undisputed queen would be to kill Alistair, as he would surely be seen by such a person as a possible threat to her rule.

Modifié par PuffyTail, 21 novembre 2009 - 11:09 .

[ReubenLiew]

Actually if you played it straight with her, ie did not reveal her, told her she will be queen, and told her you'd try to save her dad, she'll only ask Alistair to give up all rights to the throne along with his heirs, which he probably wouldn't have if he was romancing the PC. She only asks him to be killed under very direct circumstances. Or you could convince both of them to marry beforehand, if you'd prefer, but you'd have to kill loghain yourself.

-edit- to be a little clearer I'm quite sure she only asks for Alistairs head if you refused to kill loghain which makes alistair declare himself to be king to force an execution on Loghain.

Modifié par ReubenLiew, 21 novembre 2009 - 11:11 .

[Vormaerin]

sylkwyrm1 wrote...

true, there is the issue that one father figure died because he was guilty of dying trough betrayal while fighting for his country

Of course, Duncan is a murderer, both before and after joining the Gray Wardens.    He was criminally negligent in accepting Ser Jory as a candidate... even Alistair is a better fit as a Warden (and he puts his own personal interests ahead of stopping the blight at the Landsmeet and quits the order in the epilogue).   So he's responsible for that murder, even if Jory was an idiot for starting the fight.    And he's complicit in the murders and riots at the Alienage, since he gives the elves weapons but doesn't stand with them himself.   And he was certainly fine with turning Cailen's childish fantasies into a weapon against the blight instead of getting him to accept reality.

The wardens just aren't an organization which "good" men belong to.    The organization was founded by deserters.  It recruits murderers and criminals.  Loghain is a great candidate for Warden after he loses the fight and accepts that the Wardens are serious, not wooly brained dreamers like Cailen.

[Akka le Vil]

ReubenLiew wrote...

What I find odd though is how one can find Alistair so emotionally attached to a father figure go to great lengths to see him avenged as acceptable behaviour and yet not see the virtue of a daughter going great lengths to save hers not.

Err...

Because Duncan is a rather nice man ready to sacrifices himself to fight a true threat, and who try to limit the collateral damages in doing so (even if he's ready to be rather ruthless), while Loghain is a traitor that sacrifices others for his power-hungry schemes and present himself as a hero while he's only being stupid and hypocrite ?

Because Alistair's desire for revenge is JUSTIFIED while Anora's desire to protect her father is simply pissing over the victims of his crimes ?

ReubenLiew wrote...

Can't that be said of your pc as
well? You tried to abandon her to the mercy of ser Cauthrien by
revealing her, after she went through the trouble of telling you to
keep her identity secret so she wouldn't be caught by her father and
arl howe's men?
And this is her fathers second hand woman at that.

Except you don't "abandon" her, you're telling to someone known for her sense of duty that the Princess was imprisonned and you saved her.
You aren't saying "here, take her back home", you're simply trying to convince the said right-hand woman that her superior is deceiving her. Considering how she comes clamoring "don't touch the princess, bastard", you can reasonably believe that she DOES care and could be convinced to let you go if the princess helped you. They most probably know each other and at least a discussion isn't out of the question.

Though honestly, the whole Cauthrien arrest wasn't really well-done. Cauthrien long rant about duty and honour when she saw first hand the treason of Loghain just doesn't make any sense. We have had, at least, the option
of calling her about that (something like "you're talking about honour and duty when you serve someone who betrayed his king and his nation and delivered them both to the DARKSPAWNS ?!"), but considering her character, honestly, she should have realized it from the get-go.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 21 novembre 2009 - 11:15 .

[Akka le Vil]

Alocormin wrote...

Queen Anora never fights an unreasonable fight. She picks her battles. Why can't people see that? When she accepts you as her consort, for one, she seems to think you'd be a strong candidate. If you die, she doesn't take any consort ever.

To say she is such a vile selfish person is unjust. In the epilogue she puts into place many good, progressive things that help Ferelden. She believes herself a good ruler, and I would tend to agree with her. I think she's fascinating.

The reason she wants to kill Alistair is because of the fit Alistair throws if you don't kill Loghain. He makes it clear he would fight for the throne for revenge, so she sees that he can't do that in the future. You can save Alistair, as far as I know you don't even need to do a persuade check.

The point is not that she's an inefficient ruler - it's pretty clear she's efficient.
The point is that she's a repulsive person that is out for personnal power, and doesn't care about betrayal, lies, manipulation, murder and the like as long as she can gets what she wants.
All her niceties are only because it helps her have her way, but she's completely selfish, self-serving and without morals.
That's why people dislike her.

[TuringPoint]

You people are seriously awful at reading between the lines.

Loghain wouldn't allow Anora to just go back to the estate of Eamon, Loghain's enemy. Would he? If she declared her allegiance, the fear is that Loghain - thus Ser Cauthrien - would consider her an enemy. If there's anyone loyal enough to Loghain to go through with taking her back to this palace for the treachery, and attacking/arresting the Warden anyway, it would be Ser Cauthrien.

Get it now? Not to be patronizing. Anora really is a smart lady, and she was written well.

Modifié par Alocormin, 21 novembre 2009 - 11:45 .

[sylkwyrm1]

when was Howe, loghains most trusted advisor, ever loghains enemy?

Edit: i can only assume you mean Eamon, not Howe, and yeah that was explained by her, though i was suspicious to see she escaped the makers evil twin sister somehow.

i reloaded and did it again though because i told allistair we would try to escape alone and found all my possessions in a chest ten feet away and realised it would not be a daring challenge so i wanted to be rescued instead heh

Modifié par sylkwyrm1, 21 novembre 2009 - 11:21 .

[ReubenLiew]

I would most certainly think discussion is out of the question for Cauthrien. She's insanely loyal to Loghain, and would've most certainly taken Anora back to Loghain irregardless of her protests or yours. Anora knows that, and I certainly knew she'd be that type of woman, afterall even after her disquiet about quitting the field she did so because she's loyal to Loghain no matter what.



And that the PC would blithely just tell her, Hey here's the queen, now take her back to Loghain now, scoot, RIGHT after she says that that would be really bad as then she wouldn't be able to make plans with Arl Eamon to topple her father. The PC basically just revealed how stupid or naive, or criminally honest they were to her. In fact if it were me I'd be facepalming myself and then running out the other way.



And shes not well known for her sense of duty TO LOGIC. She's well know for her sense of honor and duty to LOGHAIN. There's a huge difference to it, and she waffles on about all that is simply because she's human. She sees loyalty to Loghain is loyalty to all that is good about Fereldan and that he is the true regent. Her views are colored by her love for her captain. It's not that hard to see. If she could jump his bones I'm pretty sure she would've.

[Akka le Vil]

Alocormin wrote...

You people are seriously awful at reading between the lines.

Loghain wouldn't allow Anora to just go back to the estate of Howe, Loghain's enemy. Would he? If she declared her allegiance, the fear is that Loghain - thus Ser Cauthrien - would consider her an enemy. If there's anyone loyal enough to Loghain to go through with taking her back to this palace for the treachery, and attacking/arresting the Warden anyway, it would be Ser Cauthrien.

For what we have seen and heard about Cauthrien, she's supposed to be someone with a strong sense of duty. So the idea of talking her out of her errors isn't so outlandish - less outlandish than the idea of surrendering yourself, honestly.
Not to say it's necessarily the best option, but it's not totally stupid, I think.

Get it now? Not to be patronizing. Anora really is a smart lady, and she was written well.

No contest on this one. She's a repulsive character, but she's definitely a great one. Her repulsiveness stems from her good writing and she's a very consistent character - unless they were trying to make her sympathetic, in which case we have a severe case of reversed misaimed fandom

[TuringPoint]

A good ruler in this Fereldan system of government gets what they want, or nothing gets done. In democracy we focus on compromise and deliberation, but they don't even have a system developed for such things in Fereldan. You might as well call all of the effective leaders of olde times, the times of kings and queens, and the kings and queens of Thedas, power-hungry and deceitful. How do you think a single person gets so much power?



I just see it as beside the point.

[kraidy1117]

I personly found her an intresting character. If you tell her you will support her she will defend you at the landsmeet while if you don't support her she will betray you. It gives her so many personalities and more depth as a character.

[Vormaerin]

Akka le Vil wrote...

The point is not that she's an inefficient ruler - it's pretty clear she's efficient.
The point is that she's a repulsive person that is out for personnal power, and doesn't care about betrayal, lies, manipulation, murder and the like as long as she can gets what she wants.
All her niceties are only because it helps her have her way, but she's completely selfish, self-serving and without morals.
That's why people dislike her.

Except there is no evidence she's repulsive or only interested in personal power or uncaring about those crimes.    She challenges her father on those points, she sends the PCs to find out what horrors are going on in the Alienage, and she repeatedly comments that her father is out of control and unreasonable.

She doesn't want to keep Loghain in power.    She does want him deposed.  Just not executed.  And she accepts that if it comes down to it.   She only discusses Alistair's execution if he goes off on a rant about how he wants to be king just to have Loghain executed.    Anyone listening to that rant ought to be repulsed by Alistair, especially if you don't know how out of character is it.

Anora is widely liked before, during, and after the events of the game.   If she was really a repulsive, self serving power monger that would not likely be true.   Maybe you are the one person in the whole country who sees through her, but I find that unlikely.

[TuringPoint]

But that's what would've happened, and do you think you are the better judge of such a situation or Anora? You would've been arrested anyway, and Anora would've been taken back to the palace, and spoken with firmly or killed by her father. She's lived with him, she knows he allowed Cailan to die for the sake of Fereldan, and why wouldn't he do that to her?

I never said Howe was Loghain's enemy. The Warden is Loghain's enemy. If she accepts allegiance with the warden she is openly opposing her father long before that's necessary or fruitful. Also, if she accepts allegiance with the Warden she accepts allegiance to Howe's killer - like you said, the most trusted advisor of Loghain is Howe. That trust is misplaced, but that's a sidetrack.

LOL at the repulsive character comments.  Anora is the only person in the royal palace siding with the Wardens, though.  

I want to also point out that Anora's decision-making ability isn't perfect - she cracks down on the alienage as queen, when consideration of the alternatives might have been better.  Such is monarchy.

Modifié par Alocormin, 21 novembre 2009 - 11:30 .

[ReubenLiew]

I don't think he meant people as in in-game people, so much as players.