240 réponses à ce sujet

[sylkwyrm1]

suggest you reread your own post

[TuringPoint]

Not necessary.

Modifié par Alocormin, 21 novembre 2009 - 11:47 .

[Akka le Vil]

Vormaerin wrote...

Except there is no evidence she's repulsive or only interested in personal power or uncaring about those crimes.    She challenges her father on those points, she sends the PCs to find out what horrors are going on in the Alienage, and she repeatedly comments that her father is out of control and unreasonable.

Actually, you can notice that all this relate strictly to how it helps to grab the throne. She doesn't care about the victims themselves, but only about how she can use them to fight the political power of her father. She's the one crushing the Alienage revolts if she becomes Queen, once the elves have become expandable.

She doesn't want to keep Loghain in power.    She does want him deposed.  Just not executed.  And she accepts that if it comes down to it.   She only discusses Alistair's execution if he goes off on a rant about how he wants to be king just to have Loghain executed.    Anyone listening to that rant ought to be repulsed by Alistair, especially if you don't know how out of character is it.

Actually, it speaks more in favour of Alistair. Anora tries to protect a criminal from justice, Alistair wish to bring a criminal to justice. Considering the crimes of Loghain, I find much more repulsive to try to protect him than to try to not let him get away with it.
Also, considering the very specific crimes of Loghain against the Grey Warden, I totally understand how Alistair can see how making Loghain a Grey Warden would be a mockery.

Anora is widely liked before, during, and after the events of the game.   If she was really a repulsive, self serving power monger that would not likely be true.   Maybe you are the one person in the whole country who sees through her, but I find that unlikely.

How is it unlikely ? She's an able deceiver that manipulate everyone to further her ends - even Loghain confirms it if he survives - and that's basically what she did.
The whole "save the princess from a certain death" is a complete manipulation - Loghain, again, confirm that he would never have killed her.
All her decisions are strictly based upon how they can help her to get the power. She also nearly directly confirms it herself at the Arl's house if you talk about the different possibilities for Ferelden's future rulers.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 21 novembre 2009 - 11:38 .

[sylkwyrm1]

Alocormin wrote...

You people are seriously awful at reading between the lines.

Loghain wouldn't allow Anora to just go back to the estate of Howe, Loghain's enemy. Would he? If she declared her allegiance, the fear is that Loghain - thus Ser Cauthrien - would consider her an enemy. If there's anyone loyal enough to Loghain to go through with taking her back to this palace for the treachery, and attacking/arresting the Warden anyway, it would be Ser Cauthrien.

Get it now? Not to be patronizing. Anora really is a smart lady, and she was written well.

i also edited my response to what i can only assume was a typo once i realised what you meant, and i thought, at least, that i was making a contributoin to this discussion as much as anyone, my bad i'm sure.

[sylkwyrm1]

eamon says things along the same lines about her when he tells you to do what you must, inculding lying, to ensure her support, remember anora was raised in the castle (she says and i believe that it was marics wish that his blood and loghains blood would found a new dynasty) she was what she was raised to be, especially considering she was groomed to marry cailan who had more interest in being a king from a fairy tale than a competant ruler "oooh swords.."

[TuringPoint]

I will correct that typo now. Why didn't you just say that, instead of continuing to act condescending?  

Very well.  I can see this is a matter of clarity and not spam.

Modifié par Alocormin, 21 novembre 2009 - 11:44 .

[sylkwyrm1]

i use the quick reply box rather than using the quote button, might have made it a bit more obvious if i had

[TuringPoint]

Self-serving, repulsive people who lie are often well-liked. Generally more wildly popular, too.

I think Alistair is at least just, and perhaps Anora doesn't even trouble herself with the concept of justice when there's a matter of power.  I hope my Grey Warden can temper some of her rough edges as a ruler  Alistair certainly wouldn't.  He doesn't even want to deal with her.

I see her as basically a good ruler.  She desires power, but so does Alistair.  Alistair doesn't have goals in mind, although goals can be overrated if not tempered by wisdom.  I'm not sure how wise Anora is - she certainly has wits though.

As for Loghain, I think it very just for him to become a Grey Warden.

Modifié par Alocormin, 21 novembre 2009 - 11:56 .

[Vormaerin]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Yes, she wants to be Queen.  If wanting the throne is evidence of being power hungry, she's guilty.   There's also no evidence you give a rat's patootie about the elves except how it stops Loghain either, so I'm not sure what your point i there.  She puts down a riot in the Alienage, but then most rulers put down riots.    Its pretty obvious that everyone from Calenhad to Maric was repulsive, since they all had alienages.

Its funny how's she's a "master deceiver" who can fool whole nations, yet she deals straight up with you.   She tells you honestly what she wants, why she wants it, and why she thinks its good for everyone that she gets it.   She supports her father at the Landsmeet if she doesn't have a credible alternative, because the country has to be united to face the blight.    She doesn't have any reason to accept that the PC knows best or has the country's interests at heart.

Its entirely possible for the PC to be as corrupt and self serving as Loghain, you know.   You can deal with demons, defile holy relics, place tyrants on thrones, enslave souls for your army, leave villages to be slaughtered, and who knows what else...  So please don't tell me the Wardens aren't a fit place for Loghain.   Its an organization of criminals.   Loghain would fit right in.  And does.

[sylkwyrm1]

as far as the elves go without being married to allistair (who may or may not have been influenced by the PC being an elf, i was and things turned out good for them) anora as queen has no real effect on them, i.e as you said they are treated as poorly as they have been since calenhad

Modifié par sylkwyrm1, 22 novembre 2009 - 12:06 .

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Actually, you can notice that all this relate strictly to how it helps to grab the throne. She doesn't care about the victims themselves, but only about how she can use them to fight the political power of her father.

I don't think we see enough of her to make such a determination.

She's the one crushing the Alienage revolts if she becomes Queen, once the elves have become expandable.

With the alternative being... What, letting the elves riot and burn down the alienage? Potentially starting a fire that could gut the whole city?

Actually, it speaks more in favour of Alistair. Anora tries to protect a criminal from justice, Alistair wish to bring a criminal to justice. Considering the crimes of Loghain, I find much more repulsive to try to protect him than to try to not let him get away with it.

Murdering a man who surrenders in a duel is not justice. Let him be tried and condemned to death and not beheaded while is daughter is standing right there.

Better, let that death mean something, for to drink of the tainted blood is inevitably a death sentence whether it takes moments or years.

I think Alistair failed his [Grey Warden] check.

Also, considering the very specific crimes of Loghain against the Grey Warden, I totally understand how Alistair can see how making Loghain a Grey Warden would be a mockery.

The whole point of Wardendom is "stop the blight, by any means necessary. We take anyone, including thieves, murderers, blood mages... Anyone who will wield a sword or sling a spell against the Darkspawn is welcome."

I wanted to slap Alistair in that scene. You don't execute men who have surrendered out of hand, no matter what their crimes. Certainly not when they could be of great use in fighting the Darkspawn. That is, the whole purpose of the wardens. 

How is it unlikely ? She's an able deceiver that manipulate everyone to further her ends - even Loghain confirms it if he survives - and that's basically what she did.
The whole "save the princess from a certain death" is a complete manipulation - Loghain, again, confirm that he would never have killed her.

Loghain never comes out and says whether he'd kill her or not, if I recall. But even if he wouldn't have killed her, would Anora have known that? Loghain had no problem murdering her husband and framing the Wardens. He had no problems poisoning Eamon, promising the mages of the tower freedom from the chantry if they'd rebel against the circle, or betraying Teryn Cousland to Howe. Eamon was his friend. Cailan was too. If he's willing to kill all them, wouldn't any rational individual think that he might be willing to kill his own daughter if she doesn't fall into line? 

All her decisions are strictly based upon how they can help her to get the power. She also nearly directly confirms it herself at the Arl's house if you talk about the different possibilities for Ferelden's future rulers.

Help her get power for what reasons though? Is the PC who marries her for greater power bad even though the kingdom flourishes under his and Anora's rule? I know it's an adage that those who seek power should never have it... But what of those who wish to be good rulers? 

Conversely, what of Alistair if he goes all "I WILL BE KING TO KILL LOGHAIN"? There he's trying to assume the throne for selfish personal reasons and petty revenge. 

Modifié par Cpl_Facehugger, 22 novembre 2009 - 12:27 .

[Vicious]

We really see nothing to suggest that Loghain or Anora are bad rulers. In fact, we see many indications that they are extremely strong monarchs.



As for Loghain, We also see many indications that he is a tyrant and willing to commit atrocities if he believes that they serve his country's best interests, and that his concept of his country's best interests is somewhat warped. For these reasons, he must be stopped. But again, he is the hero in his own mind.



Compare to Bhelen - Bhelen leads Orzammar into prosperity, and he is a tyrant in the same way as Loghain.



Anora is basically a more reasonable version of Loghain. However make no mistake: She rules and she rules well, and she is quite intent on keeping her power, even if you marry her the only happy ending is if you basically play Alistair's/Cailan's part and let her do the administrative stuff while you go around the kingdom having fun and getting popular.

[Vicious]

Loghain never comes out and says whether he'd kill her or not, if I recall.

He sure does if he becomes a Grey Warden. And he says he would never kill his own daughter. This fits with his last words if you decide to kill him where he basically says he loves her.


An interesting character, to be sure. Tyrannical and sure that the ends justify the means, but actually redeemable.

Modifié par Vicious, 22 novembre 2009 - 12:35 .

[Vormaerin]

I think its funny that Loghain and Howe, who are both known liars and (in Loghain's case) self delusional, are considered valid character witnesses.... Loghain said he'd never kill Anora. Of course, he said that the Wardens killed Cailen with their stories, not him with his treachery. And he said that the Wardens were agents of Orlais seeking to put a puppet on the throne of Ferelden (and believed it!). He also said Arl Eamon was a fat old man who cared only for his own priviledges. He said that the Blight wasn't real except in Cailen's head. And that all of Howe's murdering, slaving, and whatnot were done by Howe and not his responsibility.



But I'm sure that once he drinks the Warded kool aid, he's instantly a good judge of reality and an honest man...

[Onyx Jaguar]

I wasn't a fan, even in one of the Landsmeet I did I was going to side with her and she managed to backstab me (still got the Landsmeet on my side however). Personally I wished that if you sided with Alistair and you had him sacrifice himself that Eamon would have become king. Too bad Alistair is not a dwarf because then when you and Eamon suggest executing her he would have jumped up and said "Yes, that is a fine idea"

[Akka le Vil]

Vormaerin wrote...

Yes, she wants to be Queen.  If wanting the throne is evidence of being power hungry, she's guilty.

She's guilty of doing whatever it takes to get the throne, which is actually quite exactly the definition of being power-hungry.

Its funny how's she's a "master deceiver" who can fool whole nations, yet she deals straight up with you.   She tells you honestly what she wants, why she wants it, and why she thinks its good for everyone that she gets it.

Actually, as I said before : it's because telling the truth coincide with her interests. When it doesn't, she lies (again, as it was already pointed, the whole rescue operation).
She's even indirectly admitting it. When you ask why you should trust her, she says "because our goals coincide". That pretty much explains it.

Its entirely possible for the PC to be as corrupt and self serving as Loghain, you know.   You can deal with demons, defile holy relics, place tyrants on thrones, enslave souls for your army, leave villages to be slaughtered, and who knows what else...  So please don't tell me the Wardens aren't a fit place for Loghain.   Its an organization of criminals.   Loghain would fit right in.  And does.

The problem is not about Loghain being "not nice enough" to be a Grey Warden. The problem is about Loghain being the one delivering the country to the Darkspawns. Grey Wardens don't care about your means, but they care about you having as ultimate goal "destrying the darkspawns". Loghain has been doing the exact opposite. Not really convincing for a Grey Warden.

And anyway, my point was that Alistair's reaction was understandable and justified.

Cpl_Facehugger wrote...

I don't think we see enough of her to make such a determination.

I think that how she still consider her father a great man despite what he did prove that she doesn't really care about the victims of his schemes.

With the alternative being... What, letting the elves riot and burn down the alienage? Potentially starting a fire that could gut the whole city?

 
Something tells me that if there is food riot, it's because someone up there didn't really cared about what happened to the elves. Just a feeling.

Murdering a man who surrenders in a duel is not justice. Let him be tried and condemned to death and not beheaded while is daughter is standing right there.

Well, I admit that it was a bit weird to have the trial + judgement + execution made in one line. I would have found more satisfying to bring Loghain to justice (if only to expose how despicable and traitorous he had become). But the game doesn't give you the options, and between getting out of the hook easy and execution, I don't see how chosing the latter is in any way a moral flaw.
Punishing criminal isn't really a lack or moral, you know.

The whole point of Wardendom is "stop the blight, by any means necessary. We take anyone, including thieves, murderers, blood mages... Anyone who will wield a sword or sling a spell against the Darkspawn is welcome."

As said above, someone who deliberately destroyed the opponents of the darkspawn and let the Horde going rampant and unchecked and did basically whatever he could to prevent any fighting back, isn't really the best choice of Grey Warden available.

Loghain never comes out and says whether he'd kill her or not, if I recall.

Actually, he does. You can ask about it if you get him in your party, and he basically says "of course I wouldn't have killed her, she's my daughter ! She just manipulated you, as she always did since she was a kid, and you fell for it."

Help her get power for what reasons though? Is the PC who marries her for greater power bad even though the kingdom flourishes under his and Anora's rule? I know it's an adage that those who seek power should never have it... But what of those who wish to be good rulers?  Conversely, what of Alistair if he goes
all "I WILL BE KING TO KILL LOGHAIN"? There he's trying to assume the throne for selfish personal reasons and petty revenge. 

The difference is the inner moral fiber of both. Anora has no moral fiber, so she can't be trusted with power - especially as it's the only thing she wants. Alistair has a lot of moral fiber and is aware of his failings, so he CAN be trusted with power.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 22 novembre 2009 - 12:54 .

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Vicious wrote...

Loghain never comes out and says whether he'd kill her or not, if I recall.

He sure does if he becomes a Grey Warden. And he says he would never kill his own daughter. This fits with his last words if you decide to kill him where he basically says he loves her.


An interesting character, to be sure. Tyrannical and sure that the ends justify the means, but actually redeemable.

I was thinking of the particular conversation after he gets initiated, in fact. I distinctly remember him as evasive and letting you fill in the blanks. His reply was something like "you think I could murder my own daughter?" which is a bit of a difference, in a sith-ian way, from "I could never hurt my daughter." 

Though his final words if you execute him does support your point. Hmm. Perhaps I'm mistaken. 


Edit:

I think that how she still consider her father a great man despite what he did prove that she doesn't really care about the victims of his schemes.

He was a good man once. Everyone from Eamon to Cailan to Anora say so. Can you really blame a daughter for wanting to think that her father isn't a horrible monster? 

Something tells me that if there is food riot, it's because someone up there didn't really cared about what
happened to the elves. Just a feeling.

We don't know enough about the context of the situation to make an ethical judgement about it. What if it was during a famine and there wasn't enough food to go around for anyone, for instance?
 

Well, Iadmit that it was a bit weird to have the trial + judgement + execution
made in one line. I would have found more satisfying to bring Loghain
to justice (if only to expose how despicable and traitorous he had
become). But the game doesn't give you the options, and between getting
out of the hook easy and execution, I don't see how chosing the latter
is in any way a moral flaw.

Easily. See, if Alistair was truly concerned with justice rather than petty "eye for an eye" revenge, he'd have given Loghain a fair trial. After all, there was tons of evidence against him.

Punishing criminal isn't really a lack or moral, you know.

Punishing a criminal who hasn't received a trial, however, is rather amoral. Even if you *know* he's guilty, it isn't right to deprive him of his right to a fair trial. After all, if you've got enough evidence to execute him immediately, surely you have enough so that he can be tried and later executed, once everything is said and done.

As
said above, someone who deliberately destroyed the opponents of the
darkspawn and let the Horde going rampant and unchecked and did
basically whatever he could to prevent any fighting back, isn't really
the best choice of Grey Warden available.

Anyone who's strong of arm and willing to pick up the sword is welcome in the warden ranks. Isn't that what Duncan says? It's not like Loghain sympathizes with the Darkspawn or anything, his undermining of the wardens was pretty obviously a power grab and not an attempt to deliver Ferelden to the archdemon on a silverite platter. 

Actually,
he does. You can ask about it if you get him in your party, and he
basically says "of course I wouldn't have killed her, she's my daughter
! She just manipulated you, as she always did since she was a kid, and
you fell for it."

See, that was exactly the conversation I was thinking of, but It was a lot more ambiguious than that. Unless I'm forgetting the line, it went "You think I'd kill my own daughter?" and not "Of course I wouldn't kill my daughter."

The difference is the inner moral fiber of both. Anora
has no moral fiber, so she can't be trusted with power - especially as
it's the only thing she wants. Alistair has a lot of moral fiber and is
aware of his failings, so he CAN be trusted with power.

Why do you need a moral fiber to be a good ruler? Behlen didn't have any, yet he was a significantly better ruler than Harrowmont in the end. Alistair has moral fiber but he temporarily forgets about it simply to satisfy a personal vendetta when there's far more pressing concerns. 

I'd argue that having a moral fiber doesn't automatically make you a good ruler, and lacking one doesn't automatically mean you are a bad ruler. 

Modifié par Cpl_Facehugger, 22 novembre 2009 - 01:05 .

[Vormaerin]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...
Yes, she wants to be Queen.  If wanting the throne is evidence of being power hungry, she's guilty.

She's guilty of doing whatever it takes to get the throne, which is actually quite exactly the definition of being power-hungry.

Umm, what does she actually do that is so heinous in her quest for power?  She negotiates with other parties in the Landsmeet (ie, you?).    She *might* have lied about the danger she was in....though the only evidence of that is the word of a delusional tyrant known to used blood mages, assassins, slavers, and who knows what else?   

She's not party of any of Loghain's crimes, unless you believe like some posters that she can click her heels together and mystically banish her father and his armies from power and didn't.

[Vormaerin]

Akka le Vil wrote...
As said above, someone who deliberately destroyed the opponents of the darkspawn and let the Horde going rampant and unchecked and did basically whatever he could to prevent any fighting back, isn't really the best choice of Grey Warden available.

The difference is the inner moral fiber of both. Anora has no moral fiber, so she can't be trusted with power - especially as it's the only thing she wants. Alistair has a lot of moral fiber and is aware of his failings, so he CAN be trusted with power.

What he thinks about the darkspawn before isn't really relevant.   How much time did your character spend worrying about darkspawn before joining the Gray Wardens?  At the point of the discussion, its quite clear that he's willing and able to atone for his crimes fighting the darkspawn....same as every other Gray Warden.   Or do you think Riordan doesn't know what's acceptable to the Wardens better than Alistair?

You have no evidence whatsoever that Anora has no moral fiber.  None.   She's done nothing except *MAYBE* exaggerate her own personal danger to convince you to rescue her from prison.  Obviously, lying to get out of unjust imprisonment is the epitome of amorality.....

[Akka le Vil]

Vormaerin wrote...

Umm, what does she actually do that is so heinous in her quest for power?  She negotiates with other parties in the Landsmeet (ie, you?).    She *might* have lied about the danger she was in....though the only evidence of that is the word of a delusional tyrant known to used blood mages, assassins, slavers, and who knows what else?  

She set up a rescue, she refuses any options that don't put her on the throne one way or another, she backstab you if you don't go with her.
If she wasn't all about power, saving Ferelden from her father and the darkspawn should be her highest goal, right ?
Doesn't seem so. Her petty personnal preferences seem to take precedences. So "don't hurt daddy, give me the power, I'll bother with the well-being of the nation only if I'm the one who runs it".

She's not party of any of Loghain's crimes, unless you believe like some posters that she can click her heels together and mystically banish her father and his armies from power and didn't.

No, I don't believe a second she's party to Loghain's crimes. But she seriously doesn't seem to mind them a lot. The guy killed her own husband that she pretend she loved, and she still doesn't seem to hold a grudge beside frowning her eyes.
I love my mother, but I'm sure I'd be a little more upset at her than Anora toward her father, if I learned she destroyed half my country and killed my wife and commited more crimes than a dictionary can hold. But maybe it's just me.

Seriously, she looked like more annoyed that daddy was breaking her possessions than caring about the evils he did.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Considering that Loghain sacrificed the King's standing army at Ostagar and she was rather adamant in saying that he should not be punished accordingly pretty much makes her an accessory because of how willing she is to protect her father from what is coming to him. In the grand schemes of things what Loghain did was considerably worse than what Howe does.

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 22 novembre 2009 - 01:17 .

[Akka le Vil]

Cpl_Facehugger wrote...

He was a good man once. Everyone from Eamon to Cailan to Anora say so. Can you really blame a daughter for wanting to think that her father isn't a horrible monster?

When her wishful thinking spit in the face of tens of thousands victims that ended up dragged into the Deep Roads to be fed alive to the darkspawns, tortured into dungeons (and I'm speaking of Fort Drakon, not the "it was Howe who did it not me I promise I didn't knew really I'm just that gullible") or sold to spend the remaining of their lives in slavery, yes I think I can blame her quite a bit.
There is the normal affection from a daughter toward her father, whatever monster he way be, and then there is human decency. You can love him deep inside and still have some vague notion of justice or respect.

We don't know enough about the context of the situation to make an ethical judgement about it. What if it was during a famine and there wasn't enough food to go around for anyone, for instance?

We do know that Alistair has not this problem.
If even the harvest dislike specifically Anora, I think that's proof enough she's unnaturally despicable

Punishing a criminal who hasn't received a trial, however, is rather amoral. Even if you *know* he's guilty, it isn't right to deprive him of his right to a fair trial. After all, if you've got enough evidence to execute him immediately, surely you have enough so that he can be tried and later executed, once everything is said and done.

That's more of a writing problem than Alistair's problem. I don't have the option to send him to a trial though, doesn't mean my character is evil.

And I would say it starts to feel like a serious moral dissonnance to don't give a crap about the henchmen doing their job and being slaughtered by the dozen, and suddendly remember about ethics and proper justice procedure when the really guilty and evil guy is about to bite it.

Anyone who's strong of arm and willing to pick up the sword is welcome in the warden ranks. Isn't that what Duncan says? It's not like Loghain sympathizes with the Darkspawn or anything, his undermining of the wardens was pretty obviously a power grab and not an attempt to deliver Ferelden to the archdemon on a silverite platter.

Sure, but I wouldn't trust the fight against the darkspawn to someone who has been their best ally and is the very reason they haven't been beaten yet.
I would perhaps trust him to be send into their ranks alone and unarmed, just so he can get a bit of a taste of what he inflicted upon his OWN MEN.

Why do you need a moral fiber to be a good ruler? Behlen didn't have any, yet he was a significantly better ruler than Harrowmont in the end. Alistair has moral fiber but he temporarily forgets about it simply to satisfy a personal vendetta when there's far more pressing concerns.
I'd argue that having a moral fiber doesn't automatically make you a
good ruler, and lacking one doesn't automatically mean you are a bad
ruler. 

I don't say you need a moral fiber to be a competent ruler, I say you can't be trusted with power if you don't have one, and that people without moral fiber tends to be despised, with good reason.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 22 novembre 2009 - 01:20 .

[Vormaerin]

Akka le Vil wrote...

She set up a rescue, she refuses any options that don't put her on the throne one way or another, she backstab you if you don't go with her.
If she wasn't all about power, saving Ferelden from her father and the darkspawn should be her highest goal, right ?
Doesn't seem so. Her petty personnal preferences seem to take precedences. So "don't hurt daddy, give me the power, I'll bother with the well-being of the nation only if I'm the one who runs it".
.

Setting up the rescue is hardly a crime and its pretty obvious that she was genuinely imprisoned.  *Maybe* she was confident Howe wouldn't kill her, but I sure wouldn't be in her shoes.  So I don't believe she lied about needing rescuing.

She wants to be Queen and she believes she's the best option.   She thinks Alistair is a doofus..and with good reason.  Not backing your half arsed power grab is not soulless amorality.  The full resources of Ferelden are going to go against the Blight regardless of who is ruling, so that's hardly an issue.   Riordan is going to stay to fight the Blight as a Gray Warden no matter what.

So what exactly is she doing that is horrible?  As far as I can tell, her great "amoral" action is thinking Alistair would be a disastrous king and refusing to yield power to him because you say so.

[Akka le Vil]

Vormaerin wrote...

So what exactly is she doing that is horrible?

The answer is in the quote. You should re-read it.

[MBirkhofer]

Just to remind something important. People keep saying she wants to be Queen.

She already IS. She is, and has been ruling the country for a number of years. I believe its been 4 since Maric died? (and doing well by all accounts)

Any attempt you make to remove her from power is treason, and doesn't make her a bad person for resisting. You are trying to overthrow the Queen, any way you look at it.