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[Vormaerin]

[quote]Akka le Vil wrote...

[quote]Cpl_Facehugger wrote...

There is the normal affection from a daughter toward her father, whatever monster he way be, and then there is human decency. You can love him deep inside and still have some vague notion of justice or respect.

[/quote]

Umm, she's not proposing he be let go scot free.    She's asking that he not be executed.    Does he deserve execution?  Yes.   That's why she's asking the Landsmeet for mercy.   There are a lot of people who admire Loghain or don't believe all his crimes.   Even if you don't think he deserves mercy, its entirely practical to accept him into the Wardens to avoid alienating all those who still support him.

Its not like he remains a Teryn or commander of the armies or lives a long happy life..

[Akka le Vil]

MBirkhofer wrote...

Just to remind something important. People keep saying she wants to be Queen. She already IS. She is, and has been ruling the country for a number of years. I believe its been 4 since Maric died? (and doing well by all accounts) Any attempt you make to remove her from power is treason, and doesn't make her a bad person for resisting. You are trying to overthrow the Queen, any way you look at it.

Here comes the difference between Queen reigning and Queen consort.

Vormaerin wrote...

Umm, she's not proposing he be let go scot free.    She's asking that he not be executed.    Does he deserve execution?  Yes.   That's why she's asking the Landsmeet for mercy.  There are a lot of people who admire Loghain or don't believe all his crimes.   Even if you don't think he deserves mercy, its entirely practical to accept him into the Wardens to avoid alienating all those who still support him.

Its not like he remains a Teryn or commander of the armies or lives a long happy life..

That was not my point. My point is that she's still claiming her father is a great man after all he's done, which prove she's just a b*tch with no sense of justice or decency.
She even push it as far as building a monument to him and not marrying because she doesn't find anyone up his supposed caliber. That's pretty much spitting in the face of his victims.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 22 novembre 2009 - 01:40 .

[Vormaerin]

Akka le Vil wrote...
The answer is in the quote. You should re-read it.

No, that quote doesn't hold up.  I'll repeat myself:    There is no reason to believe that *ANORA* believes herself safe from Howe just because her delusional father says he wouldn't have killed her.   Further, there's nothing amoral about arranging to be rescued from unjust and illegal imprisonment, even if it involves exaggerating her personal danger...which may or may not have even happened.  There's nothing amoral about not agreeing to endorse someone she thinks will do a horrible job of it just because the player character endorses them.  

Your argument is "she is amoral because she doesn't do what the PC wants".   Sorry, she doesn't have metaphysical awareness of the fact that the PC has infinite save games to ensure he or she wins instead of screwing up and dying namelessly in a ditch or something.

[Akka le Vil]

Vormaerin wrote...

There's nothing amoral about not agreeing to endorse someone she thinks will do a horrible job of it just because the player character endorses them.

When the other option is to support someone who is destroying the country and handing it to the darkspanw, yes it is.
The player may be totally wrong and Alistair may be a fool, but they are the ones able to stop the Blight and coming with an actual army to fight it.
Loghain has destroyed the army, handed the whole south of the country to the Horde, caused a civil war and is more preoccupied about killing Ferelden people and a non-existant invasion from Orlais than actually fighting back the Blight.

It IS then completely power-hungry, despicable and amoral to support Loghain rather than the only chance to actually save the country, just because she won't be the queen after that.

And it WAS in the quote :
"Her petty personnal preferences seem to take precedences. So "don't
hurt daddy, give me the power, I'll bother with the well-being of the
nation only if I'm the one who runs it"."

[Walina]

I dislike / hate Anora because she didn't miss any oportunity to take the throne in Landmeet, she is going to far by ordering Alistair to be excuted.

Alistair is more reasonable and let her live in case he die at the final battle so Ferelden will have a ruler.

For me, Alistair is more fitted to be king, he is less "extreme". Anora will kill Cities elves because they made a riot only because they were hungry!

I don' see why people are defending since in real life she will have fled to avoid being killed.

Modifié par Walina, 22 novembre 2009 - 01:47 .

[Vormaerin]

Akka le Vil wrote...
That was not my point. My point is that she's still claiming her father is a great man after all he's done, which prove she's just a b*tch with no sense of justice or decency.
She even push it as far as building a monument to him and not marrying because she doesn't find anyone up his supposed caliber. That's pretty much spitting in the face of his victims.

He was a great man who served his country honorably and well for 40 years.  Without him, Ferelden would still be under the boot of Orlais.    Yes, he let his hatred of Orlais destroy him and everything he worked for in the end.   I suppose its completely immoral to judge the man on the first 50-60 years of his life instead of the last six months when he was insane...     Sorry, don't buy it.  

The problem here is that you only see Loghain during the six months of his insanity.   The NPCs (and especially Anora) have known him all their lives.   For them, the six months is an aberration....a diseased state, not really him at all.   You can argue they are wrong about that, but I don't think you can really say that thinking that way makes them amoral.

[NarayanNL]

MBirkhofer wrote...

Just to remind something important. People keep saying she wants to be Queen.
She already IS. She is, and has been ruling the country for a number of years. I believe its been 4 since Maric died? (and doing well by all accounts)
Any attempt you make to remove her from power is treason, and doesn't make her a bad person for resisting. You are trying to overthrow the Queen, any way you look at it.

She's not the queen she's the queen consort. Consorts don't have claims to the throne. When the ruler dies the next in line for the throne isn't the consort but the first born child or oldest brother/sister to the king/queen. It doesn't matter if she says she has been ruling the country for years now. Like Eamon says she's just a commoner she has no claim. I actually thought it was kind of weird how Eamon warned of possible consequences of Anora taking the throne but there being no mention of these in the epilogue. 

[Vormaerin]

Akka le Vil wrote...

It IS then completely power-hungry, despicable and amoral to support Loghain rather than the only chance to actually save the country, just because she won't be the queen after that.

See, that's not how I see the decision at all.   The civil war will be resolved either way.   The Landsmeet will either vote to accept Loghain or not.   Once that happens, the army will march to fight the Blight.   Only information no one at the Landsmeet (except Riordan) has...the Gray Warden has to kill the archdemon.. says it makes any difference who is elected ruler.   And even then, Riordan would definitely stay and help Loghain if allowed.     Your army, except maybe the Dalish, would stay and fight.    And if you are any kind of Gray Warden (unlike Alistair, the dweeb), you'd stay and fight too.

So its not a choice between success or failure.   Its just another choice between Bhelen and Harrowmount.

She's not amoral for thinking Alistair is a disastrous choice who will bring the country to ruin after the Blight, if not before it.  She might be wrong, but not amoral.   He has no experience commanding armies, no experience leading men or governing,  and has given plenty of evidence that he would be weak and indecisive.  He's weak and indecisive at the Landsmeet, for heaven's sake.   The only thing he is decisive about is that he'd rather quit the country and let the darkspawn win than have Loghain not executed on the spot!

If she wanted power at any cost, she wouldn't back Loghain; she'd form a third faction and the civil strife would continue.  

[The Capital Gaultier]

She is Loghain v.2. Cunning as hell, but ultimately a poor ruler.

[Vormaerin]

NarayanNL wrote...



She's not the queen she's the queen consort. Consorts don't have claims to the throne. When the ruler dies the next in line for the throne isn't the consort but the first born child or oldest brother/sister to the king/queen. It doesn't matter if she says she has been ruling the country for years now. Like Eamon says she's just a commoner she has no claim. I actually thought it was kind of weird how Eamon warned of possible consequences of Anora taking the throne but there being no mention of these in the epilogue. 

Its hard to say, because bastard born children like Alistair don't have any claim in Europe either.  And women have a lot more rights in Ferelden than they did in Europe.  Its not clear who really has a claim to the throne without some dev explanation of the legalities in Ferelden.  They definitely don't match those of the real world.

But what Eamon says his just more of his propaganda spin.   He's a loyalist to the current dynasty and objects to the idea that it might change.   Fact is, he's just wrong.   Anora was more popular than Cailen and most people were quite happy with her rule, so that doom and gloom about the country fragmenting into civil war just didn't pan out.   You hear that kind of talk every time there is a dynastic change:   "noo, people won't accept the Capets instead of the Carolingians"....   Ooops, wrong.

[Vormaerin]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

She is Loghain v.2. Cunning as hell, but ultimately a poor ruler.

Evidence?

[The Capital Gaultier]

Vormaerin wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

She is Loghain v.2. Cunning as hell, but ultimately a poor ruler.

Evidence?

The epilogue you get from putting her up there is plenty enough direct evidence for me.  Prior to that, her treatment of power as the objective without any talk whatsoever of what she wants to do with that power.  Her interactions with the main character invariably showed poorly on her individual character (but not her cunning), as well.

Honestly, Bhelen was a much easier person to support than Anora.  At least he has positive goals.

[Vormaerin]

eh, what epilogue did you get? Other than the alienage riots, I didn't see any evidence of being a poor ruler...

[The Capital Gaultier]

Vormaerin wrote...

eh, what epilogue did you get? Other than the alienage riots, I didn't see any evidence of being a poor ruler...

That's the thing - she's a great administrator.  She just doesn't do anything positive.  At least Alistair has a good personal character and has been through life-changing experiences with you and the people of Ferelden.  Anora knows how to administer, but not to lead.  The job of a king or queen is not merely to administer.  Almost anyone can do that.

Plus, the elves being repressed is damning to me.  They are citizens same as anyone - it reminds me too much of Loghain's elvish repression.

[UnAffectedFiddle]

All he did was free Ferelden from Orlais, how and what tactics he used are never actually discussed. He might have easily have been that severe but patriotism could easily cloud his actions. She should have had him executed based squarely on the fact that he effectively plotted the death of the then King and set himself and daughter up as the rulers. He usurped Marics line and committed treason.



Not only that he has broken the law and allowed slavery of the citizens of Ferelden. He had a hand in destroying the Cousland line, another family with close ties to Royalty (him and Howe are clearly cuddly friends). His actions saw a full half of the standing army crushed, the division of nobility and civil war and his tact in dealing with another nations left a lot to be desired i.e. his ambassador to the Dwarves.



He WAS a great man, but clearly he is no longer that man and has caused grievous harm to the entire nation and once again, treason. Anoras ability to show mercy on her fathers actions but damn everyone else, like Alistair and the Pc (who has a done many great things as well by this stage) shows she is clearly to emotionally invested in her position and ambition enough to be more of a tyrant than anything.



Her fathers actions have practically crippled a strong independant country because he wanted power, and so did his daughter. Treason is alos you know, kinda punishable by death.

[Raxtoren]

Great aministrator based on what?

That the others has been roids barbarians?

[Maria Caliban]

I  Anora.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Raxtoren wrote...

Great aministrator based on what?
That the others has been roids barbarians?

Cailan doesn't impress the player as being one for handling day-to-day affairs.  Not a bad thing, but it means that for the five years since he ascended, Anora has been the power administering the nation.  It's also what everyone keeps telling you about her.  It's hard to question since I don't think it ever comes up, but I'd believe it based on what you experience.

[Maria Caliban]

Where is the option to harden Anora and become her mistress? Yes, I convinced her to marry Alistiar but I can't imagine her being very satisfied with that.

[Taerda]

Anora should be killable. Regardless of her blind infatuation and worship of her Father, she is just too dangerous to let live. That the writers made her an untouchable leads me to view her with disdain.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Taerda wrote...

Anora should be killable. Regardless of her blind infatuation and worship of her Father, she is just too dangerous to let live. That the writers made her an untouchable leads me to view her with disdain.

Does she not die anyways?  I know it doesn't really say, but I had assumed she died in the tower when the darkspawn killed everyone except Sandal.

[Taerda]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Raxtoren wrote...

Great aministrator based on what?
That the others has been roids barbarians?

Cailan doesn't impress the player as being one for handling day-to-day affairs.  Not a bad thing, but it means that for the five years since he ascended, Anora has been the power administering the nation.  It's also what everyone keeps telling you about her.  It's hard to question since I don't think it ever comes up, but I'd believe it based on what you experience.

Actually, from the very beginning I saw Loghain as the power behind the Throne for the first five years. Her blind lust for her own father would mean that she did everything he wanted - as is shown by that very fact that she did everything he wanted after Caian's death.. she had no power over Loghain and it shows throughout the story that she never once went against his wishes.

[Vicious]

Bhelen makes an excellent king and he is an immoral little snake.



Anora is similar except she at least loves her dad. So rule on!

[Taerda]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Taerda wrote...

Anora should be killable. Regardless of her blind infatuation and worship of her Father, she is just too dangerous to let live. That the writers made her an untouchable leads me to view her with disdain.

Does she not die anyways?  I know it doesn't really say, but I had assumed she died in the tower when the darkspawn killed everyone except Sandal.

Of course the plot twist probably is influenced by the player's choices, but in both of my full play-throughs she survived to rule by herself, never marrying.

[Maria Caliban]

Taerda wrote...

Anora should be killable. Regardless of her blind infatuation and worship of her Father, she is just too dangerous to let live. That the writers made her an untouchable leads me to view her with disdain.

There are dozens of major characters you can't kill.

I can't kill Duncan after he kills Ser Jory.
I can't kill Alistiar until the very end of the game.
I can't kill Morrigan.
I can't kill Druga, the dwarf who would be a mage.
I can't kill my own father (or mother!) in the human noble origin.
I can't kill Bann Teagan.
I can't kill Knight-Commander Greigor.

BioWare isn't going to make every NPC killable. Sorry, that's not the sort of game they make.