240 réponses à ce sujet

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Anora doesn't murder her siblings, though. I'll always choose Harrowmont for Orzammar even with meta-gaming knowledge because I think the moral choice should at least be given the chance to make things right.

But Anora I loved and shall give her power whenever she wants it.

[Riona45]

Maria Caliban wrote...
I can't kill Knight-Commander Greigor. 

But at least they let you insult him!

[Vicious]

The only fantasy stories i can imagine where the hero always chooses the 'good' choice are RPG stories.



So I try to inject a little shadow into my stories by making some unheroic choices here and there. Bhelen is a jerk but well, he makes a great point - Orzammar desperately needs unity, even if it's under a tyrant. Harrowmont is too conservative for his own good.



Pity the game doesn't really let you get to know them so you can make a more informed decision.

[Maria Caliban]

You can tell Anora she's a ****, IIRC.

[Vicious]

Anora's hawt. She needs to let her hair down though, but that wouldn't fit her 'all business' demeanor.



I don't buy she is a poor ruler. No offense to all but pretty much any epilogue where she rules, she does it well, even golden age well. And I'll take an epilogue written by the people who created the characters vs. somebody who likes to try to deconstruct said characters.

[Taerda]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Taerda wrote...

Anora should be killable. Regardless of her blind infatuation and worship of her Father, she is just too dangerous to let live. That the writers made her an untouchable leads me to view her with disdain.

There are dozens of major characters you can't kill.

I can't kill Duncan after he kills Ser Jory.
I can't kill Alistiar until the very end of the game.
I can't kill Morrigan.
I can't kill Druga, the dwarf who would be a mage.
I can't kill my own father (or mother!) in the human noble origin.
I can't kill Bann Teagan.
I can't kill Knight-Commander Greigor.

BioWare isn't going to make every NPC killable. Sorry, that's not the sort of game they make.

Regardless, the fact that Anora is an untouchable (at any point in the entire story) leads to disdain - no matter who is and who isn't made killable.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Vicious wrote...

I don't buy she is a poor ruler. No offense to all but pretty much any epilogue where she rules, she does it well, even golden age well. And I'll take an epilogue written by the people who created the characters vs. somebody who likes to try to deconstruct said characters.

Repressing the Elves is not good rulership, no matter how much you try to paint it in a good light.

[Riona45]

Vicious wrote...

Anora's hawt. She needs to let her hair down though, but that wouldn't fit her 'all business' demeanor.

I'd love it if the game lets you "compliment" her matronly, mother-of-the-bride, ages her by several decades old lady hairstyle.

[Riona45]

Maria Caliban wrote...

You can tell Anora she's a ****, IIRC.

Not sure if you were responding to me, but I didn't mean to imply that you couldn't insult the other characters you mentioned (if you can, that's cool!).  I haven't gotten too far into the game yet, so I don't know.  Sorry for being unclear--it's just that I intensely dislike Greigor so being able to badmouth him a bit was a memorable moment for me.

Modifié par Riona45, 22 novembre 2009 - 04:35 .

[MBirkhofer]

Taerda wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Raxtoren wrote...

Great aministrator based on what?
That the others has been roids barbarians?

Cailan doesn't impress the player as being one for handling day-to-day affairs.  Not a bad thing, but it means that for the five years since he ascended, Anora has been the power administering the nation.  It's also what everyone keeps telling you about her.  It's hard to question since I don't think it ever comes up, but I'd believe it based on what you experience.

Actually, from the very beginning I saw Loghain as the power behind the Throne for the first five years. Her blind lust for her own father would mean that she did everything he wanted - as is shown by that very fact that she did everything he wanted after Caian's death.. she had no power over Loghain and it shows throughout the story that she never once went against his wishes.

Except she didn't.  not before or after.  She opposed her father, and got imprisoned by Howe, who controlled Denerim.
Anora's army was Cailans.  Who all died at Ostagar.  So she didn't have direct control over any force to oppose her father in anyway, except public opinion.   But again, the moment she refused him, he had Howe lock her away.

Logain was a general that performed a coup.  Anora was the politician in control prior.


And inregards to her rule.  Pretty much every ending does paint her in a very favorable light.   She does very well. 

[MBirkhofer]

Double.

Modifié par MBirkhofer, 22 novembre 2009 - 04:46 .

[Akka le Vil]

Vormaerin wrote...

See, that's not how I see the decision at all.   The civil war will be resolved either way.   The Landsmeet will either vote to accept Loghain or not.   Once that happens, the army will march to fight the Blight.

Why should it work like that ?
Loghain is the one who CAUSED all the problems the country has by now. He is the one who DESTROYED any forces the country has now (Aemon forces, Circle of Magi forces, King forces, all three have been scattered and made unusable because of him, and the PC is the one who restored the order). He's not a Grey Warden, so all the armies the PC has assembled WON'T follow him. Supporting him in the Landsmeet won't unite the country - he IS already in power, and all it has caused is a civil war, not uniting.
And having the power, he shown more concern about a non-existant threat from Orlais and about crushing the rebellion than fighting the Blight.

Supporting Loghain basically condemns the country to ruin. She even says so when she come to seek for your help... but funnily, as soon as you don't support HER claims to power, she fall back to support daddy, even though it will condemn the nation.
So much for the "it's for the good of Ferelden !".

She's not amoral for thinking Alistair is a disastrous choice who will bring the country to ruin after the Blight, if not before it.  She might be wrong, but not amoral.

She's even perfectly JUSTIFIED in thinking Alistair would be a disastrous choice. She's wrong in the end, but her reasoning is right considering what she knows of Alistair. That's not the problem.
The problem is that she'd rather support her father and bring the country to a ruin at the hand of the darkspawn, rather than swallow her pride and desire for power and support a choice that she may consider not the best, but is still better for the country.

She clearly put HER interests long before the ones of the nation.
THAT is immoral.

[Akka le Vil]

UnAffectedFiddle wrote...

All he did was free Ferelden from Orlais, how and what tactics he used are never actually discussed. He might have easily have been that severe but patriotism could easily cloud his actions. She should have had him executed based squarely on the fact that he effectively plotted the death of the then King and set himself and daughter up as the rulers. He usurped Marics line and committed treason.

Not only that he has broken the law and allowed slavery of the citizens of Ferelden. He had a hand in destroying the Cousland line, another family with close ties to Royalty (him and Howe are clearly cuddly friends). His actions saw a full half of the standing army crushed, the division of nobility and civil war and his tact in dealing with another nations left a lot to be desired i.e. his ambassador to the Dwarves.

He WAS a great man, but clearly he is no longer that man and has caused grievous harm to the entire nation and once again, treason. Anoras ability to show mercy on her fathers actions but damn everyone else, like Alistair and the Pc (who has a done many great things as well by this stage) shows she is clearly to emotionally invested in her position and ambition enough to be more of a tyrant than anything.

Her fathers actions have practically crippled a strong independant country because he wanted power, and so did his daughter. Treason is alos you know, kinda punishable by death.

My thoughts exactly.

[Vormaerin]

You have Arl Eamon's forces.... they are not Gray Warden specific. You have the Circle of Magi. They aren't going to turn around and go home. You have the Dwarves. They are responding to the treaties, but its the Legion of the Dead. Fighting Darkspawn is what they do. And you have the Dalish Elves... they are pretty much following you, I suppose.



Besides which... Riordan is a Gray Warden and he's going to stick with whomever the Landsmeet picks and the treaties apply anyway. The only way its not the same army regardless of who wins is if Loghain rejects the aid of the Wardens again. Which is conceivable, but not likely.



Its entirely possible for the Landsmeet to vote to support Loghain. If they had done so after Ostagar, the army would have been fighting the darkspawn all this time. You could just as easily argue that all those lords fighting against Loghain are the reason the darkspawn overran everything.



*You* think a wishy washy King with feeble support in the Landsmeet is a better choice than Loghain. *You* believe that "oust Loghain at all costs" is the right move. She doesn't and the Landsmeet doesn't (or you wouldn't have to persuade so many folk to change their votes to backing Alistair). She's very likely sitting there going "What the *bleep* is wrong with these power mad Wardens, unwilling to do anything except risk everything to seize power themselves?"



You refuse to compromise and back her, even though she has demonstrated competence and widespread support. She refuses to compromise and back you, because Alistair is incompetent and has limited support outside of Arl Eamon. And /she's/ the one who is power mad and doesn't have the country's best interests at heart...



Getting rid of Loghain is in the country's best interests. Putting Alistair on the throne isn't, as far as anyone has any reason to believe. Do you have even one good reason why rallying around the Queen isn't better at that point than shoving an unwilling and incompetent Alistair forward on his own?

[Akka le Vil]

Vormaerin wrote...

You have Arl Eamon's forces.... they are not Gray Warden specific. You have the Circle of Magi. They aren't going to turn around and go home. You have the Dwarves. They are responding to the treaties, but its the Legion of the Dead. Fighting Darkspawn is what they do. And you have the Dalish Elves... they are pretty much following you, I suppose.

Arl Eamon would probably follow Loghain. But with much distrust (he tried to directly kill him, after all) and that's not even a given.
The Circle of Magi was ravaged by Uldred, because Loghain pushed him to do it. Unlikely they would help Loghain.
The Dalish wouldn't give a crap about Loghain and are here only because of you.
The dwarves have all incentives to NOT fight for Loghain and would absolutely NOT follow him. They have a crapload of reasons to come back home and don't help anyone but the Warden. Heck, their help is already a bit shaky when you're the Warden and have helped their king, so...

Addidionnally, you can unite Ferelden as a Warden fighting the darkspawns, while Loghain has spent the whole game fighting rebellions. Alistair could be a bearded goat and a total idiot completely unfit to rule, he would still be a better option for the country as Loghain at the moment of the Landsmeet, not because he would do a better job, but simply because Loghain can't unite anyone behind his banner, while the Grey Warden can not only unite the whole country, but also bring the three additionnal factions as armies.

Besides which... Riordan is a Gray Warden and he's going to stick with
whomever the Landsmeet picks and the treaties apply anyway. The only
way its not the same army regardless of who wins is if Loghain rejects
the aid of the Wardens again. Which is conceivable, but not likely.

Not only Riordan is from Orlais, and we all know how logical Loghain is about these things, but it's not certain that he could muster the forces you did. You had to do quite a bit of personnal tasks yourself, and the allies you bring are just as much indebted to you personnally, than they are following the treaties. Some of them also have direct conflict with Loghain himself, which make their support not likely.

Its entirely possible for the Landsmeet to vote to support Loghain. If they had done so after Ostagar, the army would have been fighting the darkspawn all this time. You could just as easily argue that all those lords fighting against Loghain are the reason the darkspawn overran everything.

Err...
NO ?
If the Landsmeet was about to support Loghain, there would not a civil war going on, hello ? The very reason while Loghain can't do jack ?

Loghain is the one who destroyed the army, remember ? If he wanted so badly to kill Cailan, he could have waited AFTER the battle ?
He's constantly with the King, but prefer to sacrifice half of the army to a horrible death rather than man up and do the deed himself. That's one of the main elements showing he's out for power and making dubious all the claims about his great character.
Sacrificing ten of thousands of your own countrymen and handing the nation to the darkspawns rather than sacrificing yourself is a good way to show you're just a douchebag.

*You* think a wishy washy King with feeble support in the Landsmeet is a better choice than Loghain. *You* believe that "oust Loghain at all costs" is the right move. She doesn't and the Landsmeet doesn't (or you wouldn't have to persuade so many folk to change their votes to backing Alistair). She's very likely sitting there going "What the *bleep* is wrong with these power mad Wardens, unwilling to do anything except risk everything to seize power themselves?"

Loghain hasn't the support from the Landsmeet, has already lost half of the army to the darkspawns, has a civil war on his hand and has not the support of the four other armies that the player has.
At this point, it's not *my* opinion, it's just plain as day.

You refuse to compromise and back her, even though she has demonstrated competence and widespread support. She refuses to compromise and back you, because Alistair is incompetent and has limited support outside of Arl Eamon. And /she's/ the one who is power mad and doesn't have the country's best interests at heart...

Getting rid of Loghain is in the country's best interests. Putting Alistair on the throne isn't, as far as anyone has any reason to believe. Do you have even one good reason why rallying around the Queen isn't better at that point than shoving an unwilling and incompetent Alistair forward on his own?

You seem to have a hard time understanding, so I'll reiterate : Loghain has caused a civil war and handed the country to the darkspawns. What's important at the moment is not the competence of the king, it's uniting the nation. It's WAY PAST the time to fight for power, it's time to unite behind the Grey Warden, period. Even if he's an @ss. The country is being overrun, and the Wardens are the only one who have reinforcement and can unite, even temporarily, the country behind them. Loghain has ALREADY failed in this.

The whole "compromise" is too late. You don't bicker about how you want to be put on the throne when there is darkspawn eating your crops and your countrymen. Doing so is simply madness.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 22 novembre 2009 - 09:59 .

[velmyn]

Vormaerin wrote...
You refuse to compromise and back her, even though she has demonstrated competence and widespread support. She refuses to compromise and back you, because Alistair is incompetent and has limited support outside of Arl Eamon. And /she's/ the one who is power mad and doesn't have the country's best interests at heart...

"All I want is POWER"
"Then I won't support you."
"Wait, and you're actually accusing ME of being power hungry?"
"Yes."

I think I died a little inside...or I'm just laughing too hard. Maybe both. Where meta-gaming applies, it says that Allistair was quite popular, not to mention helping the situation at the alienage. It doesn't comment on his political acumen, but I'm more than sure Arl Eamon can handle that.

Not to mention, as pointed out, that Loghain's own opinion of Anora does her very little credit.

Modifié par velmyn, 22 novembre 2009 - 10:13 .

[Vormaerin]

Akka le Vil wrote...


You seem to have a hard time understanding, so I'll reiterate : Loghain has caused a civil war and handed the country to the darkspawns. What's important at the moment is not the competence of the king, it's uniting the nation. It's WAY PAST the time to fight for power, it's time to unite behind the Grey Warden, period. Even if he's an @ss. The country is being overrun, and the Wardens are the only one who have reinforcement and can unite, even temporarily, the country behind them. Loghain has ALREADY failed in this.

The whole "compromise" is too late. You don't bicker about how you want to be put on the throne when there is darkspawn eating your crops and your countrymen. Doing so is simply madness.

You are wrong about the Landsmeet and Loghain.   Some of the lords are fighting Loghain, but most of the country is sitting on the sidelines.   Anyway, arguing about Loghain is irrelevant.  We know he's a bad guy. 

The real point is that you insist that "rallying around the Gray Warden" means  "puttng a Warden on the throne".   There is no reason that Alistair has to be King to unify the country.   If Alistair backs her, the country is unified and the Gray Wardens have their army.    And there is no incompetent on the throne.    Alistair was put forward as a candidate because a viable alternative to Loghain was needed for the Landsmeet to rally around.   Well, guess what?   There is another viable candidate.... one with more support and more competence than Alistair.   One who has far more chance of getting Loghain's loyalists (he's the second largest landholder in Ferelden..) to support the new regime, because it'll be far easier for them to transfer their allegiance from Loghain to his daughter than from Loghain to the man who had him executed...

There isn't one single argument for her supposed amorality that doesn't equally apply to anyone insisting on Alistair taking the throne.  If the most important thing is unifying the country, then it should be a no brainer to back Anora (or arrange a marriage to her, even better) and everything goes smoothly.

[The Capital Gaultier]

 I think this just goes to show that RPGs with difficult choices elicit a better reaction from the players.  

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 22 novembre 2009 - 10:22 .

[Maria Caliban]

A few people think that Loghian, if unopposed, would be able to handle the darkspawn. The problem here is that if you talk to Loghian when he's your companion, he explicitly tells you that he was preparing to defend his forces against an invasion from Orlias.

Even if everyone had followed him, the Blight would have gobbled up Ferelden as he didn’t believe there was a Blight. He would not have made treaties with the dwarves and elves (and it’s unlikely they would be interested in said treaties if he offered), and he would have moved the bulk of the army to the west where the border with Orlais was and left places like Redcliffe and Denerim with only light garrisons.

By the time Loghian decided to deal with the Blight, it would have been too late.

[Vormaerin]

velmyn wrote...

I think I died a little inside...or I'm just laughing too hard. Maybe both. Where meta-gaming applies, it says that Allistair was quite popular, not to mention helping the situation at the alienage. It doesn't comment on his political acumen, but I'm more than sure Arl Eamon can handle that.

Not to mention, as pointed out, that Loghain's own opinion of Anora does her very little credit.

The best outcomes have Anora in them.   I think the two "Golden Ages" come from Anora ruling with one of the two Gray Wardens (Human noble PC or Alistair) married to her and mostly waving the flag.    As a spinster Queen, she's a little short of that, but then so is Alistair on his own.

Her proposal is perfectly reasonable.. 

Anora:  "We need a ruler to replace Loghain.   I'm the better qualifed, more popular option.  So back me and we'll win"
PC:  "No, we want Alistair on the throne, not you"
Anora:  "Why?  How is that good for anyone except Arl Eamon and the Wardens?
PC:  "No reason.  But we aren't backing you anyway.  All power to Alistair"
Anora:   /thinks:   Uhh, maybe my Dad was right after all about the Wardens...

[Akka le Vil]

Vormaerin wrote...

The real point is that you insist that "rallying around the Gray Warden" means  "puttng a Warden on the throne".

Err...
No ? Reading comprehension failure ?

You asked why I consider Anora power-hungry. I answered that's because she chose whatever can get her the power, even if it means going against the good of the nation and letting it be ruined by darkspawns. That has nothing to do with "putting a Grey Warden on the throne", that has all to do with "not chosing what's best for the nation, but only what gets her the power".
Of course that the Grey Warden could chose Anora and not Alistair, and of course it would be perfectly normal that she considers herself as a better ruler than Alistair. Nobody disputes that.
The point is not that she says "I'm a better choice than Alistair" (which is a totally acceptable point of view), the point is that IF you don't chose an option where she gets the power, she turns on you and side with Loghain, even though it's clearly worse for the country.

Doing whatever it takes to get the power, even at the expense of others, and even at the expense of the whole country, is quite the definition of power-hungry.

[Vormaerin]

Maria Caliban wrote...
By the time Loghian decided to deal with the Blight, it would have been too late.

That's possible. But he was talking in the cutscenes and at the Landsmeet about defeating the darkspawn, so I don't know how anyone could reasonably expect that he'd run off the opposite direction.    Howe's reports that Anora heard were  "We may not have the men to face the darkspawn" and in the Landsmeet he gives that speech about "defeating even the Blight itself".   There is no reason to believe he'd go marching off to stop Orlais without dealing with the darkspawn.

[Vormaerin]

Akka le Vil wrote...
Doing whatever it takes to get the power, even at the expense of others, and even at the expense of the whole country, is quite the definition of power-hungry.

No, we disagree about whether its "clearly worse for the country" to back Loghain over a power grab by the Wardens.

Remember... SHE DOESN"T HAVE POWER IF SHE BACKS LOGHAIN.     HE does.    The "screw everyone, its all about me" choice would be to split the Landsmeet even further and form her own faction.   She's got the support...there are lords she could turn to now that she's out of Howe's grasp.

[Maria Caliban]

Vormaerin wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
By the time Loghian decided to deal with the Blight, it would have been too late.

That's possible. But he was talking in the cutscenes and at the Landsmeet about defeating the darkspawn, so I don't know how anyone could reasonably expect that he'd run off the opposite direction.

At the Landsmeet, when talking to a group of banns who are about to elect the new leader and many of whom are losing land to darkspawn, he talks about defeating the Blight.

Afterward, when you talk to him alone and ask about it, he tells you his plan. It was to defend the country from Orlias and then only tackle the darkspawn when he felt the real threat was dealt with.

There is no reason to believe he'd go marching off to stop Orlais without dealing with the darkspawn.

Except he tells you that's exactly what he was going to do.

[Mistersunshine]

I liked Anora. My character chose to marry her. I think she'll be a good leader for Ferelden, much better than either Cailan or Alistair.