240 réponses à ce sujet

[velmyn]

Vormaerin wrote...

Akka le Vil wrote...
Doing whatever it takes to get the power, even at the expense of others, and even at the expense of the whole country, is quite the definition of power-hungry.

No, we disagree about whether its "clearly worse for the country" to back Loghain over a power grab by the Wardens.

Remember... SHE DOESN"T HAVE POWER IF SHE BACKS LOGHAIN.     HE does.    The "screw everyone, its all about me" choice would be to split the Landsmeet even further and form her own faction.   She's got the support...there are lords she could turn to now that she's out of Howe's grasp.

Except, as his daughter, she'll still have more leverage than what she has with the Grey Warden, if he chooses to support Allistair. This means that when Loghain dies(sometime in the future), she'll inherit the power.

Not to mention, during her proposal if you hint at the possibility of marriage with Allistair, she says she doesn't want to. You have to do a bit of persuading to get her to do this.

Modifié par velmyn, 22 novembre 2009 - 10:55 .

[Akka le Vil]

velmyn wrote...

Not to mention, during her proposal if you hint at the possibility of marriage with Allistair, she says she doesn't want to. You have to do a bit of persuading to get her to do this.

And we can even add... Why doesn't she wants to ? Because... she's tired of being the power behind the throne, and wants to wield the power herself.
She can be persuaded to marry him - obviously because being the power behind the throne is still having the power and is still better than having to wait for Loghain to die or risking not having any power at all - but it's very telling of her real priorities.

[Austrolite]

Anora is grossly incompetent. If she'd been a capable ruler, the situation would never have reached the point it has by the time I'm asked to rescue her, and frankly, there's no reason to give her another chance to lose her throne when there's a war to be fought and I have a perfectly viable alternative in Alistair.

Modifié par Austrolite, 22 novembre 2009 - 01:04 .

[Vormaerin]

Had you already pissed her off or something? Because when I spoke to her, she was surprised but said "Would he even want to do that?" and it was Alistair that needed persuading. Anyway, I'm sure any non selfish,unreprehensible woman would be very open to a suggestion that she marry her very recently deceased husband's half brother...whom she barely knows (and despises based on that knowledge).

[Vormaerin]

Maria Caliban wrote...

[

Afterward, when you talk to him alone and ask about it, he tells you his plan. It was to defend the country from Orlias and then only tackle the darkspawn when he felt the real threat was dealt with.

Except he tells you that's exactly what he was going to do.

That's after the Landsmeet.  I was saying that no one at the Landsmeet has any reason to suspect that was his plan, because everything he's said publicly (and everything he said in semi public cut scenes) indicates he's planning on taking on the darkspawn.

[Lirilaria]

Okay some people here are a little confused about the escape scene.



I am a gray warden that just rescued the daughter of my worst enemy.Can i trust her?Only 1 way to find out:make her stand with me.So when the Loghain troops stop me i call her out to support me and in turn i would support her.



She has nothing to fear-after all i can just kill anyone that tries to kill/return her to her father.And what does she do?In fear for her own life like a pathetic power hungry coward she betrays me.



So she cant be trusted at all.What am i supposed to do?Give her the power to rule over an entire country?Or just drive a sword trough her heart when i return to Arl Eamon estate?I like option 2.

[Akka le Vil]

Vormaerin wrote...

Had you already pissed her off or something? Because when I spoke to her, she was surprised but said "Would he even want to do that?" and it was Alistair that needed persuading. Anyway, I'm sure any non selfish,unreprehensible woman would be very open to a suggestion that she marry her very recently deceased husband's half brother...whom she barely knows (and despises based on that knowledge).

Yeah, because she seemed sooooo sad and pissed off about her husband being dead...
And she's just sooo into "love marriage" and not into "whatever gains me power"...
Sure, she's sooooo non-selfish and a poor widow in sorrow.

Where is the smiley when you need it ?

[MBirkhofer]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

Had you already pissed her off or something? Because when I spoke to her, she was surprised but said "Would he even want to do that?" and it was Alistair that needed persuading. Anyway, I'm sure any non selfish,unreprehensible woman would be very open to a suggestion that she marry her very recently deceased husband's half brother...whom she barely knows (and despises based on that knowledge).

Yeah, because she seemed sooooo sad and pissed off about her husband being dead...
And she's just sooo into "love marriage" and not into "whatever gains me power"...
Sure, she's sooooo non-selfish and a poor widow in sorrow.

Where is the smiley when you need it ?

Shes a Queen. unlike Alistar who breaks down and crys when he doesn't get his way, she maintains her composure and leads.  The country needs a leader, not a greaving widow.

[Akka le Vil]

MBirkhofer wrote...

Shes a Queen. unlike Alistar who breaks down and crys when he doesn't get his way, she maintains her composure and leads.  The country needs a leader, not a greaving widow.

Or, more believably, she just didn't care that much.
I mean, it's not like if her entire character and all her actions weren't about how manipulative and power-hungry she is, were they ?
True, she doesn't cry when things don't follow her whims. She backstabs. Much better I'm sure.

[ReubenLiew]

Lirilaria wrote...

Okay some people here are a little confused about the escape scene.

I am a gray warden that just rescued the daughter of my worst enemy.Can i trust her?Only 1 way to find out:make her stand with me.So when the Loghain troops stop me i call her out to support me and in turn i would support her.

She has nothing to fear-after all i can just kill anyone that tries to kill/return her to her father.And what does she do?In fear for her own life like a pathetic power hungry coward she betrays me.

So she cant be trusted at all.What am i supposed to do?Give her the power to rule over an entire country?Or just drive a sword trough her heart when i return to Arl Eamon estate?I like option 2.

How is it that you can apply that logic and yet somehow not do the same for her? Aren't you basically her father's worst enemy, she has to see that she can trust you and therefore see if you can keep your mouth shut for longer than 10 seconds? And if you managed to get that far, she would then decide to help the wardens, who are by the way, outlaws at the present moment, and put them back in power?

I think too many people here simply assume because they're the PC everyone else in the game is an insignificant bug that must conform to their every will. Excuse me if Bioware decides that maybe their characters have better motivations than to be the PC's ****.

[SeanMurphy2]

I think she was quite interesting.



In the early cutscenes, you could tell she was unhappy about Loghain taking control. But she was so outwardly composed. She was very secretive. She did not usually openly reveal her feelings or plans. She would be a good diplomat.

[Nyaore]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Lirilaria wrote...

Okay some people here are a little confused about the escape scene.

I am a gray warden that just rescued the daughter of my worst enemy.Can i trust her?Only 1 way to find out:make her stand with me.So when the Loghain troops stop me i call her out to support me and in turn i would support her.

She has nothing to fear-after all i can just kill anyone that tries to kill/return her to her father.And what does she do?In fear for her own life like a pathetic power hungry coward she betrays me.

So she cant be trusted at all.What am i supposed to do?Give her the power to rule over an entire country?Or just drive a sword trough her heart when i return to Arl Eamon estate?I like option 2.

How is it that you can apply that logic and yet somehow not do the same for her? Aren't you basically her father's worst enemy, she has to see that she can trust you and therefore see if you can keep your mouth shut for longer than 10 seconds? And if you managed to get that far, she would then decide to help the wardens, who are by the way, outlaws at the present moment, and put them back in power?

I think too many people here simply assume because they're the PC everyone else in the game is an insignificant bug that must conform to their every will. Excuse me if Bioware decides that maybe their characters have better motivations than to be the PC's ****.

Agreed. Anora already told you that she did not want to be exposed to her father's forces the moment she was freed from her prison for fear that they would shepherd her back to the palace. And when you think about how bonker's Loghain is, and the conversation you have with Anora later if you don't betray her trust, shows that there could have been a very real possibility of Loghain (in his infinite paranoia) killing her for what happened.
The priority of that mission is to get Anora out of Howe's, and indirectly Loghain's, clutches so that she could be of use to your cause. Revealing her simply to save your own skin throws that plan out the window, and essentially means you went through the hassle of dealing with Howe for little to no reward.
Besides do you honestly think that Cauthrien would have let you go even if Anora vouched for you? Or that she wouldn't have gone to Loghain who would then start spreading word of your 'kidnapping' his daughter to the rest of the Landsmeet nobles? The best thing to do is ensure that he has no idea where she is and does not have eye witness testimony to place her with your group. Revealing her would have only created more problems than it would have been worth.

[Murdario]

i was EXTREMELY disappointed there wasnt an option to cut her from crotch to throat. what an annoyting c-word.

[Lirilaria]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Lirilaria wrote...

Okay some people here are a little confused about the escape scene.

I am a gray warden that just rescued the daughter of my worst enemy.Can i trust her?Only 1 way to find out:make her stand with me.So when the Loghain troops stop me i call her out to support me and in turn i would support her.

She has nothing to fear-after all i can just kill anyone that tries to kill/return her to her father.And what does she do?In fear for her own life like a pathetic power hungry coward she betrays me.

So she cant be trusted at all.What am i supposed to do?Give her the power to rule over an entire country?Or just drive a sword trough her heart when i return to Arl Eamon estate?I like option 2.

How is it that you can apply that logic and yet somehow not do the same for her? Aren't you basically her father's worst enemy, she has to see that she can trust you and therefore see if you can keep your mouth shut for longer than 10 seconds? And if you managed to get that far, she would then decide to help the wardens, who are by the way, outlaws at the present moment, and put them back in power?

I think too many people here simply assume because they're the PC everyone else in the game is an insignificant bug that must conform to their every will. Excuse me if Bioware decides that maybe their characters have better motivations than to be the PC's ****.

I think you have it backwards.The queen already saw how wrong her father is.Heck she got imprisoned for it.She fears HER OWN FATHER will kill her.

Who put the gray wardens as outlaws?Loghain.
Who killed her husband?Loghain.
Who allowed for innocent people to be killed?Loghain.

You see i dont need her.I HAVE the armies of mages/dwarves/elves as a support.I can put a figure head (Alistair) on the throne.Heck if i wasnt trustworthy i wouldnt be rescuing her at all.Just kill her in the cell so she wont sway the nobility against me and im better off.The very notion that i RISK MY LIFE to save hers should inspire a bit of trust regardless of the reasons.

Hell i already did everything she asked me to-and when i asked for something in return to see if I can trust HER she betrays me.Maybe make that line with persuade?So you can convince her to side with you?Alot of better ways this could have gone and more entertaining for the players i think.

Excuse me if Bioware is kinda screwing some places up.Like not giving me the option to kill her when i deem beneficial (if shes not gonna help shes better off dead).No one says it would go as planned-maybe make the killing of Anora creating a martyr for Loghain to gather support from all the banns and you have to fight both darkspawn AND the ferelden military at the final battle.

After the rescue mission the game feels kinda....rushed.

[ReubenLiew]

No no, totally gotta blame Bioware that you can't just kill everything in the game when you want it to, because the entire world revolved around your character.

How dare Bioware assume that their characters cannot be more important than your PC, how dare they!

Hell if you didn't need her, they should've just put the option of telling Arl Eamon to stuff it instead of helping the Queen! I mean, you're just an Outlaw being persued by the entire country because the person in power have outlawed your organization on the charges of being traitors that if you were to show up in court without help you'd be killed on sight!

No, I mean, you PC is the greatest thing since sliced bread and all should fall on their knees and worship your feet, because quite clearly you've managed to gather up an army of second class citizens, isolationist dwarfs who probably never sent word of their support anyway, MAGES of all things, and an Arl who married an Orlesian who gave birth to an abomination!

No way, they gotta see it your way, no way the lesser people of Fereldan would not march under your banner, you're the son of God alright. No, Bioware SHOULD'VE given you to the option to kill the Queen, at any time you wanted, just cause you're the most specialiest person in the game world, isn't it?



Alright sarcasm aside.



I'm not even going to bother to argue this anymore. You are obviously completely blinded by your hatred of this woman, and unwilling to see this side of the argument. We on the other fence already understand why you might not like her, insofar as to even suggest her murder, but we present the reasons why she has pretty good reasons to do what she does, but no. Every single one of you will bombard us with the same, tired old argument of blind hatred that you conveniently ignore everything else that builds her personality and the reasons why you cannot take certain paths.



Hell, being the special PC that I am, I demand that I be able to kill the Maker. HOW DARE HE turn his face away from us! I'm the damn PC, I am, I demand to be able to kill whatever and whoever I demand, especially this self serving absentee father figure who DARES betray me by turning his face from me!

[Murdario]

whats the "pretty good reason" for selling out the person whos help YOU have requested and who has kindly done so by risking his/her own life again?

[ReubenLiew]

*sigh*

Look whatever. If you don't want to read why she did it then don't keep asking why it was such a good reason, alright? It has been stated god knows how many times why she did it, it was even confirmed by a developer, DAVID FREAKIN' GAIDER himself why she did it, how it was justified in her eyes to do it, but people kept on hating on her because they can't see past the veil of vainglorious indignance of being betrayed because obviously their PC has to be right in their decision all the time/.

[Akka le Vil]

Wow, you just look like an arrogant fool.

You use complete strawmen, miss the point, present yourself as the "intelligent one who understand all" while being obviously unable to see the lines of a character, try to use sarcasm and just look idiotic with...
Gosh. Just gosh.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 22 novembre 2009 - 06:20 .

[ReubenLiew]

And others have made themselves to look like a child unwilling to hear the other side of the story by covering up their ears and going 'lalalalallala I can't hear you'.
But yes, this has stirred me up more than I cared to. I was just getting a little pissed that people were so completely opposed to the idea that maybe she had reasons to do what she did and start calling out the devs like they had no idea what they were doing.
But cest la vie, its the internet.
But whatever. And I find it hardly fair to be accused of using strawmen arguments when this entire thread has been filled with that already, but sure.

Modifié par ReubenLiew, 22 novembre 2009 - 06:23 .

[Taerda]

ReubenLiew wrote...

*sigh*
Look whatever. If you don't want to read why she did it then don't keep asking why it was such a good reason, alright? It has been stated god knows how many times why she did it, it was even confirmed by a developer, DAVID FREAKIN' GAIDER himself why she did it, how it was justified in her eyes to do it, but people kept on hating on her because they can't see past the veil of vainglorious indignance of being betrayed because obviously their PC has to be right in their decision all the time/.

Wanting to kill the biggest threat to your success (in your own eyes) does not want you to be able to murder every character entity in the game ... she may have seen herself justified, but just because a person sees themselves as such does not make it so, in equal measures to al characters.. both NPC and PC.

The simple fact that Bioware does not allow you to kill her, does not mean that she is some unsullied fully-justified marter ... the simple fact is no matter how you slice it, if my PC had a chance to kill Anora, Anora would have been killed. Perferably at the same time her father was beheaded, but barring that, Arsenic in her food while she was in the tower, tower guards ordered to kill her during an "escape" attempt or another method.. it does not matter... she would have been killed, no doubts what-so-ever.

[Murdario]

im not saying it wasnt justified in her eyes, im saying shes is a total c-word because it was justified in her eyes. im sure every backstapping traitor scum ever in the history of the world had very good personal reasons for being backstapping traitor scum.

[ReubenLiew]

Maybe Bioware decided that killing her would be simply too hard to justify. She is queen, and it's like they're going to let you walk after killing the Queen of Fereldan. With Bhelen you had Harrowmont, with Loghain you had the Queen and Arl Eamon and the majority of the Landsmeet behind you.

If you wanted to kill the Queen I think a lot of the landsmeet would've raised up in serious protest. I can see why people want to kill her, I do, but I don't think people see just how badly this would affect storyline.

-edit- And if you put Alistair on the throne, you lock her away in the tower. You probably don't get to behead her personally, but then nothing gets mentioned on whether she lives or dies in that tower later if Alistair lives, so technically isn't that the same thing as getting her killed? Most people just want to kill her personally, and that would be pretty disastrous pre-landsmeet which some are actually calling out to do.

Modifié par ReubenLiew, 22 novembre 2009 - 06:32 .

[ReubenLiew]

Murdario wrote...

im not saying it wasnt justified in her eyes, im saying shes is a total c-word because it was justified in her eyes. im sure every backstapping traitor scum ever in the history of the world had very good personal reasons for being backstapping traitor scum.

It was well within her character to do such a thing, in the end, and thus it was justified to do what she did. Not that is was justifiable in the eyes of your character or whatever, because that cannot be applied generally as each player is different in terms of how they quantify actions as moral.

[Akka le Vil]

ReubenLiew wrote...

And others have made themselves to look like a child unwilling to hear the other side of the story by covering up their ears and going 'lalalalallala I can't hear you'.
But yes, this has stirred me up more than I cared to. I was just getting a little pissed that people were so completely opposed to the idea that maybe she had reasons to do what she did and start calling out the devs like they had no idea what they were doing.

Nobody deny she has reasons to do what she does. The difference is that some consider she has moral reasons, and the others consider that she's doing it only for her benefit.
The point about seeing only what you want goes both ways, you know, and from MY point of view, YOU are the one just looking for elements that contradict the character lines of Anora as we actually saw them in the game, and going out of your way to find how they can be presented in a positive highlight while they clearly means something else.

But cest la vie, its the internet.
But whatever. And I find it hardly fair to be accused of using strawmen arguments when this entire thread has been filled with that already, but sure.

Strawmen are a pathetic and dishonest form of argumentation, and you were exactly doing that. Don't try to put the responsabilities on others. If someone really use a strawman (and I insist on the "really", as "strawman" is used as a strawman itself more often than I can count), call him out on it, but the excuse "others did it !" is just not going to cut it.

ReubenLiew wrote...

It was well within her character to
do such a thing, in the end, and thus it was justified to do what she
did. Not that is was justifiable in the eyes of your character or
whatever, because that cannot be applied generally as each player is
different in terms of how they quantify actions as moral.

Nobody says it was not "in-character", on the contrary. What people say is that HER CHARACTER is despicable.

Do not mix "a badly written character" with "a despicable character". They are completely unrelated. One is about the quality of her writting, the other is a moral judgement on the character itself.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 22 novembre 2009 - 06:33 .

[ReubenLiew]

Well actually it seems like a lot of people seem to deny that she has no reason to do what she did, and I called them out on it.



Alright, yes, the strawman is the worst possible way out of an argument, but at that point some people simply stopped listening to the otherside, and stretching out an argument over it would've riled me even more. Forgive us our small mistakes.



The arguments before were never directed at you, by the way, because I know you saw the other side of the argument. But I guess I couldn't be arsed to type in everyone else that refused to see her side of the story.