155 réponses à ce sujet

[CJohnJones]

Another argument for the toolset is that it was designed to make lore-friendly content set in the Dragon Age world. For one's first few modules I would suggest that it is wiser to make adventures that fit rather than adding a lot of stuff right away. Basically, use a tool as intended before you can expect to know it well enough to use it in clever new ways.

[Mersozz Yelo]

OrionUnas wrote...

So I was all excited to get this toolset and fiddle around after my campaign story, and create new contecnt for the game.  However... I have found myself completly flustered.  The wiki sucks, and hardly any tutorials.

I can't even delete my modules that I don't want.  So I uninstalled the sodded dung, and am going to reinstall. with luck that will help some things.

I perfered the NWN1 toolset!  At least I could create stuff.  Anyway, anyone else got an oppinion on the suckyness of this toolset?

(Edit)
I'm not trying to be a flammer, I'm greatly appreciative that BioWare has given us this tool, but I'm, and I'm sure alot of newbs like me, are very disheartened  at trying to make works for the game since there are no resources.

I was frustrated with it too.  However, slowly but surely, I've been making progress.

Still though, I can't argue with your critique.  In particular, I've found the level / terrain features to be extremely awkward.  There's no reason why lighting and navigation couldn't be easier.

And frankly, I'm not buying into the argument that it's difficult for some because it's so powerful and complex.  It's difficult for some because it's not nearly as intuitive as NWN1.  Sure, NWN1 was a simpler tool but it was also rock-solid stable, and very user friendly. 

I find the notion that a complex, powerful editor can't be easy and fun to use to be absurd..... like any other instrument, something that is well-designed can be easy to pick up, but remain challenging for the most advanced users - like a guitar or piano, for example.

I also disagree with those who assert that the toolset was just some sort of extra bonus....I've tracked the progress of this game for a long time, and it was my understanding that the toolset would be an integral component of the game.  And certainly, that's why I bought it, along with many, many, other people.  Others can say they purchased it for the single player game, but not me.  And given the huge interest in the NWN1 and the NWN2 toolsets, I can't honestly believe that the developers wouldn't consider the toolset to be a HUGE selling point for this game.

Considering all the flack that the NWN2 toolset generated with respect to bugs/stability, I have to say I'm pretty floored that the DA toolset could come out of the gate and make me look back at the NWN2 toolset longingly.

Having said all that, I'm confident that things will get debugged, patched, and improved....and I expect the community to once again come on strong with improvements.  To date, though, count me among those who are disappointed with what I've seen to this point.

Modifié par Mersozz Yelo, 18 novembre 2009 - 10:24 .

[Astorax]

Mersozz, did you use the NWN2 toolset out of the gate? The NWN1 toolset?



Neither was fully understood very well (although granted NWN2 was easier since it was based heavily on the NWN1 toolset from a UI perspective) when they first came out. And there was very similar posting on the NWN boards the first couple weeks it was out same as it is here.



As for not buying the argument that it's not intuitive because of its power and complexity, and then comparing it to the NWN1 toolset...um...okay, think about what you just wrote.



The NWN1 toolset didn't have near the capabilities of this one. Not even remotely. As someone that spent 100's of hours with it (not even remotely exaggerating), eeking out every possible tweak you can get from it, I can tell you from just looking at the surface of the DA toolset that it's many orders of magnitude more versatile in terms of what you can create with it. With the added level of possibility comes a linear added level of complexity in working with it. That's just how tools work.



As for the ease of navigation, the tool was actually designed (from what I've read) to be more in line with, say, a 3d application's navigation. So if you're familiar with navigating around in, say, Maya or 3d Studio Max, then the navigation of the toolset will feel more natural. If you're used to the NWN1 and 2 toolsets...then yeah, it's sure to feel pretty awkward at first. But having said that, there's a reason the 3d applications have the navigation set the way they do.

[dragero]

simpatikool wrote...

I only dinkered with it a little so far. My issue stems from the fact that, I can't stop just playing the game.

Same.
/sigh
I'll get to it eventually.

[SilentCid]

In case you people are struggling on how to use it. I have a link here on my signature that could assist you on knowing more about the toolset.

[Morikahn]

This toolset is obviously an in-house development tool. It's design flows around the idea of multiple developers working on the same module at the same time. Its not like NWN1 or NWN2 in design, and I think that is what it frustrating people the most, as they hoped the years they spent learning the old toolset would make the learning curve for this one mild.

This toolset was developed only as far as to get the game out, and no further. That is probably the reason there are issues with it corrupting the game campaign. I hope, over time, patches to it will make it more user friendly.

Barring the learning curve, the toolset does look promising. I just think too many people had overtly high expectations that they would be able to jump right in and make their own modules right away.

And as was mentioned earlier in this topic, the wiki site is OUR site. We can add to it and modify it as needed as we learn more about the toolset. I recommend that anyone that decided to help with the wiki learn the basics of wiki style, formatting, and categorization, or else our wiki site could turn into a spaghetti mess.

I'm planning on writing a more detailed review of the toolset to give people new to it more realistic expectations. I think the Bioware marketers just wrote up whatever they were told to to get people to buy the game.

Modifié par Morikahn, 18 novembre 2009 - 11:49 .

[georage]

It is easy to say the DAO is more powerful, but I know it will never be used to generate the amount of community content as NWN1.



Will the mods be better? Probably not.



The NWN1 toolset was designed to help module makers create new adventures. The DAO toolset was designed to help professionals make retail modules.



So, being more powerful does not really make this toolset better. In fact, it probably provides less value to most consumers.



More Powerful != Better

[Astorax]

georage wrote...

It is easy to say the DAO is more powerful, but I know it will never be used to generate the amount of community content as NWN1.

Will the mods be better? Probably not.

The NWN1 toolset was designed to help module makers create new adventures. The DAO toolset was designed to help professionals make retail modules.

So, being more powerful does not really make this toolset better. In fact, it probably provides less value to most consumers.

More Powerful != Better

And your evidence of this is where exactly?

[georage]

My evidence is in logic. If a tool is considered difficult to use, and another simple to use, more people will use the simple tool.



That is just common sense.



Thus, the NWN1 community was so large because the toolset was more approachable.



The DAO toolset, being less user-friendly, will have fewer users, and thus less content.



Time will tell, of course.

[ladydesire]

Morikahn wrote...

This toolset is obviously an in-house development tool. It's design flows around the idea of multiple developers working on the same module at the same time. Its not like NWN1 or NWN2 in design, and I think that is what it frustrating people the most, as they hoped the years they spent learning the old toolset would make the learning curve for this one mild.

This toolset was developed only as far as to get the game out, and no further. That is probably the reason there are issues with it corrupting the game campaign. I hope, over time, patches to it will make it more user friendly.

The more I play with it, the more I do see elements of the NWN and NWN2 toolsets in it;  it's just that it's different enough from them that they aren't obvious at first.

Barring the learning curve, the toolset does look promising. I just think too many people had overtly high expectations that they would be able to jump right in and make their own modules right away.

Agreed; I wasn't one of them, thankfully.

And as was mentioned earlier in this topic, the wiki site is OUR site. We can add to it and modify it as needed as we learn more about the toolset. I recommend that anyone that decided to help with the wiki learn the basics of wiki style, formatting, and categorization, or else our wiki site could turn into a spaghetti mess.

Agreed.

I'm planning on writing a more detailed review of the toolset to give people new to it more realistic expectations. I think the Bioware marketers just wrote up whatever they were told to to get people to buy the game.

Possibly, but I don't think most players bought it for the toolset unless they didn't plan on ever playing the Bioware campaign. I know that most players of NWN and NWN2 didn't touch the ones included in them for whatever reason they might have had, though more players of NWN did than for NWN2.

[Skellimancer]

Toolset baffles me.



For instance opening savegames shows things like character morphs (assuming thats the facial choices) but only in code (or whatever you call it) with no visuals making altering things impossible.

[Pyrate_d]

as I understand it, it's pretty much amazingly powerful, to the extent that the entire game was created using the toolset



yeah, it's a mess to figure out, but people will get it eventually

[Raseri]

This toolset may or may not have some muscular abilities, I don't know. What I do know is doing the simplest of things is far more complicated than it needs to be. I'll take the Oblivion Construction Set any day of the week as far as flexibility, ease of use/ease of learning, and scope. The DA:O toolset will be the reason the modding community doesn't get very large, because there won't be nearly so many people who have the C++ skills and temperament to learn how to best make use of what it can offer. At this point, I for one will be one of those folk who has no desire to break out my C++ books just to learn to script. That aside, it ticks me off greatly that we don't have access to any of the resources that are part of the DLCs that we paid for, as I would like to make use of them, as well as not having access to many things in the game just because Duncan wore it or the king used it, etc.

[Dmuse]

georage wrote...

It is easy to say the DAO is more
powerful, but I know it will never be used to generate the amount of
community content as NWN1.

Really? Because I know a lot of professors (teaching design/game design) that are attempting to work the DA toolset into their carricilum who would not even consider something like the NWN1 toollset. I'm not sure your "knowledge" of what will be put out is well founded.

Will the mods be better? Probably not.

If not, and I might argue otherwise, nor will they likely be any worse.

The
NWN1 toolset was designed to help module makers create new adventures.
The DAO toolset was designed to help professionals make retail modules.

While the toolset was designed to create the game initially, it was also created/released for the community to continue creating content for it. That is decidely NOT just for professionals.

So, being more powerful does not really make this toolset better. In fact, it probably provides less value to most consumers.

Perhaps, unless it allows a higher quality of after market products. While people may find it harder to create things, that may mean that there are actually group of highly skilled people releasing great content which is enjoyable -- and of value as a learning tool to use the toolset.

My evidence is in logic. If a tool is considered difficult to use, and another simple to use, more people will use the simple tool.

That is just common sense.

Really? because I'd rather use a sword (hard to use) than a stick (eaiser to use) should there be a need. It's just simply better suited for the task.

You can only compare things on this level if they both provide the same abilities. NWN toolset offers less adjustability than the DA toolset and so a direct comparison between the two can't be drawn from simple ease of use.

[

Thus, the NWN1 community was so large because the toolset was more approachable.

The DAO toolset, being less user-friendly, will have fewer users, and thus less content.

Time will tell, of course.

All other things remaining constant, yes, I would agree.  A lot of things change though, so I'm not sure how strongly we can make that statement. One example would be the number of people involved in after-market communities / user created content. With large titles like Spore, Little Big Planet, and even Sims as well as many other applications allowing -- and encouraging -- user created content, a lot more people have been drawn into the toolsets post NWN.  You may be underestimating the sheer number of people willing to put time into finishing projects now.  And these aren't just 'kids', many are computer science professionals (not necessarily programmers) that want a hobby.

At my job for instance, there are 3 (of the 5) IT people who are going to be putting out their own material for DA. As I understand it they have done a lot of other User created/modding in the past as well so are dedicated to seeing what they can do in DA as well.

*shrug* you're right. We'll see. I just don't feel that the toolset is as horrid as people make it out to be. Of course I come from a background of having to learn development tools and working with them, and I can remember the days of modding when code wasn't released to the community and people had to 'hack' to mod or extract and replace models etc. It can, and will be done. Having the toolset just makes it easy(er) than otherwise.

[georage]

I bow before your 'carricilum' knowledge!



I have no doubt many will make great mods. But, I also know that since you can't make an area with water, this, and the fact it takes hours to create even a simple area, will turn a lot of people off.



If the DAO community is half as large as NWN1, I will be pleasantly surprised.

[Eshaye]

georage wrote...

My evidence is in logic. If a tool is considered difficult to use, and another simple to use, more people will use the simple tool.

That is just common sense.
 

lol Pretty much, you're my hero for saying it so simply and well. If you want your clients to make new content and enjoy the benefits of altering their experience you should make the tools available user friendly and put yourself in the mind set of the average player. It's power should not be curbed by the fact that the interface is not easy to navigate...

I hate to have to say it again, but Bethesda managed to release tool sets we can understand, basically if you've used photoshop before you should be ok with their tool set, so far the DA tool set is as easy to understand as Blender, okay maybe a little easier then Blender but still I gave up learning Blender a while ago...  

Sure this may curb the 'offensive' mods available (pink hello kitty armor for instance) but it also curbs creativity in the community.

[Sashem]

Personally, I like the toolset. It will take some time for people to get used to it and start discovering the more powerful features and use them the right way. The only thing I have problem with are the conversations, I miss the old "classic" way to do them, all with text with the portrait of the speaker on the right or left of the window.... but still its only a minor gripe.



Also, lip sync has some problem with french lol.... but I can't do anything about that.

[Mersozz Yelo]

Astorax wrote...

Mersozz, did you use the NWN2 toolset out of the gate? The NWN1 toolset?

Neither was fully understood very well (although granted NWN2 was easier since it was based heavily on the NWN1 toolset from a UI perspective) when they first came out. And there was very similar posting on the NWN boards the first couple weeks it was out same as it is here.

As for not buying the argument that it's not intuitive because of its power and complexity, and then comparing it to the NWN1 toolset...um...okay, think about what you just wrote.

The NWN1 toolset didn't have near the capabilities of this one. Not even remotely. As someone that spent 100's of hours with it (not even remotely exaggerating), eeking out every possible tweak you can get from it, I can tell you from just looking at the surface of the DA toolset that it's many orders of magnitude more versatile in terms of what you can create with it. With the added level of possibility comes a linear added level of complexity in working with it. That's just how tools work.

As for the ease of navigation, the tool was actually designed (from what I've read) to be more in line with, say, a 3d application's navigation. So if you're familiar with navigating around in, say, Maya or 3d Studio Max, then the navigation of the toolset will feel more natural. If you're used to the NWN1 and 2 toolsets...then yeah, it's sure to feel pretty awkward at first. But having said that, there's a reason the 3d applications have the navigation set the way they do.

Yes, I did jump right into NWN1 and NWN2 toolsets....I thought the NWN1 toolset was great fun.  I'll concede it's limitations, but it was still a blast to use.

The NWN2 toolset had several improvements, most notably the ability to modify exterior terrain.  As I mentioned, it had some stability issues that bogged it down a bit.

Like you I spent hundreds of hours on both.  And as I type this on my laptop, I'm digging through the Dragon Age toolset on my desktop PC.

And to clarify, I reject the argument that a powerful toolset cannot also be easy to understand.  I'm not going to argue that this toolset lacks complexity and potential; my point was that the learning curve is akin to cliff-diving.

That's not going to keep me out of the water; but in response to the creator of this thread, I can understand his initial frustration.

Modifié par Mersozz Yelo, 19 novembre 2009 - 03:36 .

[KirbySkywalker]

i picked up the nwn2 toolset and not long after i was making areas, npcs, and conversation without ever reading a wiki, faq, or forum.



but the DA toolset, i have no clue what is going on, i make some items by messing with values, and i can make a level and raise the terrain and texture it with only 4 different textures... i can add walls and stuff to my levels but they are floating up in the air with no seeming way to lower them...



this toolset is a total mess. there is no organization to the way it is set up.



i think they took ideas from the actual toolset they made the game with and threw them into this mess they say is the toolset they used to make the game.



if this is the toolset they used to make the game, then no wonder so many video game companies are going out of business. how much time would be wasted using this to do your job?



this toolset is like the fax machine in office space.

[indio]

Toolset's a pain in the arse and I'm probably less enthusiastic about it than I was back in the days of NWN1, or 2.

But it's also probably got greater longevity, for me at least, in terms of producing the sort of content I want to produce, gui limitations notwithstanding. It's a tool I can't see being replaced for years...maybe 5.

So I'm sticking with it...certainly not close to giving it away. The sheer number of models keeps me coming back to see what else it can do. Shame about YATT though, and other usability plugins. Seems I was spoilt with those plugins.

Modifié par indio, 19 novembre 2009 - 03:47 .

[Morikahn]

I think it would be best to reserve your opinions for awhile and wait until you've had some time to work with it. Like anything new, its always difficult at start. I also expect Bioware will release a couple patches to make the toolset more viable as a community tool.
You have to remember, their goal is to sell the campaign to make revenue to continue to exist as a company. The toolset was primarily designed to get the OC out.
The NWN1 toolset was a buggy piece of **** when it first came out too, and only really reached maturity well later.
I for one, just have to look at selective tessellation of the terrain map or how it is designed to allow multiple people to work on the same module at once to see something extremely positive about this toolset.
If any of you have worked on a collaborative module for NWN1 or NWN2, you should know what a pain that was, especially for very large modules.
In the end, the toolset may end up too difficult for most, which would be a shame, but its still too early to tell.

Modifié par Morikahn, 19 novembre 2009 - 06:22 .

[Proleric]

From my experience as a beta tester, I'd say this is far and away the best RPG toolset ever.

I can fully understand that folk would like module building to be simple, intuitive and the same as earlier games. Problem is, we also want unlimited flexibility to do anything we please (which necessarily entails a little complexity) and all the latest studio features (which certainly involves a learning curve).

Learning new stuff can be stressful, but I found that following the wiki tutorials slowly, step by step, with a little trial-and-error, generally worked fine. If in doubt, ask - that's what this forum is for.

Make no mistake, there are some big new concepts to get our heads around.

For example, as games get more sophisticated, the range of skills needed to build a module broadens. The era of the solo builder is probably over - that's why the DA toolset is designed to facilitate team working.

At a more detailed level, features like plots and cutscenes work in a radically different way from earlier tools. Not obvious at first sight, then a bit scary when you realise you're not in Kansas anymore, but ultimately easier and more powerful than what we're used to.

To me, it's quite remarkable that Bioware has taken the trouble to modify their own professional studio for home use and bundle it with the game.

The tools are very stable (the issues at launch were with OC integration, not with the toolset itself). Almost everything except the GUI can be tweaked. The Ferelden lore is conveniently centralised in the codex, so we can replace it, if we wish. I couldn't ask for much more!

Really, anyone who thinks this is all some cynical marketing scam is sadly misinformed.

Thank you, Bioware.

[Martin E]

Sure with NWN1 - there was an ease in use with the toolset that is not present in DA's one. That ease of use was at the expense of flexibility though.
The 2 big successes for the NWN1 toolset were firstly in snagging people like me into custom content and modding (I was a modding virgin before that point) and secondly the shear quantity of modules that were produced.
Quantity, in my book, does not beat quality. Many of the mods I downloaded I did not play beyond the first few minutes, mainly due to the everpresent rural and interior tilesets - visually it just put me off and that was the main reason I concentrated on custom content.
As others here have suggested - it is far better to wait and see what is produced, I personally would rather a handful of very good modules than a plethora of mediocrity.
I'm just hoping that some people will stick with the toolset long enough to produce some trully excellent material (and knowing some of the people here on these forums - I am sure that will happen).
Martin

Modifié par Martin E, 19 novembre 2009 - 09:47 .

[st4rdog]

but the DA toolset, i have no clue what is going on, i make some items by messing with values, and i can make a level and raise the terrain and texture it with only 4 different textures... i can add walls and stuff to my levels but they are floating up in the air with no seeming way to lower them...

File > New > Item

To lower walls... click the wall... press the move button. If that's too complex for you...

this toolset is a total mess. there is no organization to the way it is set up.

It's probably the most organised toolset you'll find. Everything's in the palette.

My evidence is in logic. If a tool is considered difficult to use, and
another simple to use, more people will use the simple tool.

It's all subjective. This toolset is simple.

Raseri wrote...

The DA:O toolset will be the
reason the modding community doesn't get very large, because there
won't be nearly so many people who have the C++ skills and temperament
to learn how to best make use of what it can offer. At this point, I
for one will be one of those folk who has no desire to break out my C++
books just to learn to script.

The scripting is events-based. If you can't figure out what this script does then you're beyond hope and probably shouldn't even be turning on computers incase you burn the house down:

case EVENT_TYPE_AREALOAD_SPECIAL:
{
    CS_LoadCutscene(R"cutscene.cut");
    PlayCutscene();
    
    UT_DoAreaTransition("area2", "area2_start");
    
    break;
}

[Awildawn]

So I guess the answer to the original question is nobody thinks it sucks but it is hard to master.



On the topic of the power of the toolset, I guess it depends on what you call power.

If it's power to turn a good storyteller in a good module maker, then I feel it isn't that powerful because it's complexity makes it a perequisite for the storyteller to either be techsavy or to work well in a team. Both of these conditions inevitably lead some people to leave the modding boat or to go back to NWN.



But, if it's power to create a customized professional looking game, then I feel the toolset is excedingly impressive and relatively easy to learn. Thanks to the beta, we already have a skilled community, a nice wiki and some useful spread****s. Beside, face morphing and animation editing ensures that not 2 NPCs look the same or move the same (even if they share the same body), so it's already great. There may not be yet a thousand choices for monsters but at least you can design a lot of evil human/dwarf/... opponents.