74 réponses à ce sujet

[Att3r0]

Tests were done at 51 magic no +% damage on gear and Final Thought equiped .
over some tests rising the magic to 70 did give a 5% damage increase - so its quite marginal
In case of spirit damage i did substract the 33%.Targets resistance towards given element - low.

Full elemental
fireball - 407 - kirkwall gang
firestorm - 355 - kirkwall gang
Winters grasp - 750 - qunari
Cone of cold - 486 - qunari


Full Primal Build - skeletons
Chain lightning - 505
Tempest - 121
Stonefist - 505


Full spirit - darkspawn
Spirit Bolt - 693
Horror (with spirit talent bonus +25%) - 160

some physical spells
Crushing prison - 977
Hemorhage - 440
Fist of the maker - 120


Please remember that the numbers are "best case" means that enemy is vulnerable to it . In most cases the damage is halved even if enemy is low resistance (dont rly know how the resist works but i see 250 chain L damage on skeletons often)

-Fire spells are horrbile - apart from fact that a lot of enemies got fire imunity (when i got Voracity in act 2 i been hardly using it coz everything were immune). The damage is just horrible! fireball that did 407 best case did  137 when used on darkspawn that have normal resist against fire!
Cold spells - cold is decent - the damage is ok and it slows /freezes/apply BRITTLE.

-Primal is good - there arent many immunities to electricity (qunari and profans only) and chain /storm  dont cause friendly fire. Also chain L got one of best combo damage for mage . Storm is however average - in most cases it does a wooping 600 damage over duration - best served as agro magnet on lose mobs.

-Spirit - spirit bolt is a meh spell - it can do 2x on disorented but this status require a lot of wasted points for rogue. living bomb is great as it does targets HP in damage , just if the area would be bigger ;/ not a dependable spell if you ask me.
Despair never did the listed damage for me. It says 200 dam per second durtion 10s ... ehem it does only least 5s at most and do 1/4th of the damage (if enemy res is low to spirit then it ticks for 1/2 of listed damage)

-Rest - Fist of the maker - doing an auto-atack damage on 15s cooldown ? wow! yea the area is big but its also a big friendly fire area expecialy if you go for the Straggered UP.
Hemorhage - improved yes! a good base damage (4 times the fist of maker one) and also got 9x combo on straggered. You dont need to worry about resistance with it but whatever target got blood or not.
Crushing prison best single target damage among mage spells. Its physical and works on everything.

Now i should mention that a staff attack does around 100 damage., and Varric archers lance do 1200 (no bonuses).  Does the damage done by spells still look good?

Yes you can buff your spells by using +% damage items but those bonuses are low and only cover 2 spells of given element.The only items that give good bonus are sold and you cant afford them all. The fixed sets dont have a single +% and focus on +attack that i find useless - you must have realy low magic to find some use in it. And if you have haroic aura the need that high magic anymore. with 70 magic and heroic aura removing 400 worth of attak gear causes the hit chance vs bosses to drop by 1%...


##Now few words about CC spells.
Frozen from frost - good thing , not reliable but due to fact it does decent damage and can proc britle its good.
Petrify + Dessicate - works in most cases and also procs brittle.  good thing is brittle can proc even if taget is immune to petrify itself. Sadly the duration is less then half of the said 15s - but its longer then horror.

Entropy - the whole shool is about CC. Horror - decent expecially as you need only 1 point toget it. Curses - work as described just im not sure how long it actually least. Sleep -sometimes works for 2s sometimes for 5 - the area is rather small. Entropy could - this spell is not area targeted what is quite sad, it also doesnt least for more then 4s  with stun only working for 2. that all tested on lesser targets that petrify hold for 8s. so expect 50% of that when used on stronger ones.

Glyph of paralysis - this one works qutie well - its duration seems 5-8s - quite longer then that of sleep.

Blood slave - 5s capture and explode but you cant control where and there is delay after enemy turns hostile before he explodes. Doesnt cause elites to explode and lasts like 2s on them.

Telekinetic burst - more reliable to blow your own away then enemy.
Pull fo the abyss - not too bad quite a whole is immune but as it can be combined with following ability its decent

Gravity ring - This is the best spell in whole mage aresenal. The whole point of taking force is this spell +unshakable.
Its capable of slowing targets in its middle to 0 that includes bosses. And due to way it works the duration is always full. It will also effect everything that walks into it afterward allowing to block doors and other choke points
Some abilities like teleportation will allow boss to leave it but its rare. Apart from that they will sit there. Also hawke is free of its effect (companions arnt however but you can try to blow them away from it with telecinetic burst.



Mage protagonist is a disappointment. If Merrill would have creation she would be as good as Hawke even without force magic
Mages on nightmare recived too many hits. CC is 50% of said duration and on elites duration is again halved. (only one spell is uneffected and thus can be considered OP). Spell damage is low and with all resistances flying around you are happy when the damage is full. ITS not D&D rules where you could change your spell arsenal by resting. So you realy need to decide if you want to have some spells to hit enemy even when he is immune to electricity or you want CC. With damage mage spells you must go with CC (even when its this short) , support spells and fill up with spells that cause brittle (cold/petrify) or use straggered.
This doesnt make mages bad actually they are awesome ... as support. With all the hype around mages being all powerfull and needing them to be contained. Hawke support doesnt fit the image for me.

Modifié par Att3r0, 01 avril 2011 - 06:50 .

[Ruben Thomas]

I agree with most of what you said, mages also have other severe problems outside of spells, like being animation locked during auto attacks, and attribute choices are awkward.

[Waltzingbear]

Alas gone are the days of three mages and Alistair in a coconut bra; I would miss you dearly.
http://i.imgur.com/Z3sJh.jpg

You can cancel almost every queued action by giving a move order by clicking on the ground.

[rumination888]

There isn't a single mage, warrior, or rogue damage build that doesn't utilize damage multipliers.
So why are you surprised that damage is weak when you ignore those multipliers? There is a reason why elemental +damage% gear has higher numbers than other types.

Modifié par rumination888, 01 avril 2011 - 07:12 .

[DirewolfX]

Waltzingbear wrote...

Alas gone are the days of three mages and Alistair in a coconut bra; I would miss you dearly.
http://i.imgur.com/Z3sJh.jpg

You can cancel almost every queued action by giving a move order by clicking on the ground.

I'm severely disappointed that Alistair is not actually wearing a coconut bra in that picture

[Ruben Thomas]

Waltzingbear wrote...

Alas gone are the days of three mages and Alistair in a coconut bra; I would miss you dearly.
http://i.imgur.com/Z3sJh.jpg

You can cancel almost every queued action by giving a move order by clicking on the ground.

Except the mage auto attack animation between the third and fourth hit. It's not cancelled by ordering the mage to drink a potion or use an ability either, you're stuck until it finishes or an enemy walks up to you and punches you in the face because you can't move.

[Jman5]

Except the mage auto attack animation between the third and fourth hit. It's not cancelled by ordering the mage to drink a potion or use an ability either, you're stuck until it finishes or an enemy walks up to you and punches you in the face because you can't move.

This is incredibly annoying sometimes. Especially when you miss a stagger because Hawke is too busy baton twirling.

[SuicidalBaby]

my 2nd mage always has the back up stagger.

[stjasonl1]

I just started a second play trough on nightmare (first time on nighmare) as a mage and found that my staff does more damage than half of my spells also makes Haste the most powerful spell in the game.

Modifié par stjasonl1, 01 avril 2011 - 10:48 .

[SuicidalBaby]

Your staff is doing 2000 damage at lvl 11?  Cause my spells are.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 02 avril 2011 - 12:45 .

[Att3r0]

CCC ? lol Varric does 2x that and he doesnt have to worry iff target is Arcane Horror or Saarebas.Or you just sumed from multiple targets? lol. eitherway ompanions do more let alone what Hawke rogue / warrior is capable of doing.

[buzerunn]

Rogues are much stronger damage wise IMO. My rogue Hawke did like 2K+ damage with Assasination alone, two fang+ backstab+stealth shes just unstoppable

Though I still run a party of Verric+Merril+Ander, Mages have AOE spells which are awesome in clearing mobs, plus Crushing Prison and Petrify pwns elite monsters.

[Lumikki]

Example single attack spell doing damage of 1000 point, isn't better than AoE doing damage of 500 points. Because AoE can hit 10 enemies same time.

I mean if AoE'n size is consider as how many enemies it also hit and cool down time is added to it as DPS, then hole situation is different.

Example
Spell - damage - size - cool down -> sizeDPS
Fireball -407 - 10 - 20 -> 203,5
Firestorm - 355 - 15 - 30 -> 177,5
Winter's Grasp - 750 - 1 - 20 -> 37,5
Cone of Cold - 486 - 12 - 30 -> 194,4
Chain of Lightning - 505 - 4 - 20 -> 101,0
Tempest - 121 - 15 - 20 -> 90,7 -
Stonefist - 505 - 1 - 15 -> 33,7
Spirit Bolt - 693 - 1 - 10 -> 69,3
Horror - 160 - 1 25 -> 6,4
Hemorhage - 440 - 10 - 30 -> 146.7
Fist of the maker - 120 - 10 -15 -> 80,0

Of course this is optimal situation, because most the time AoE doesn't hit so many enemies. Now then there is also mana cost, resitances and all other effects what every spell has.

So, what does it mean?

If we consider that DPS as total is same to different AoE by adjusting numbers of enemies it hits, then we can also count as how many enemies spell have to hit to arrive about same DPS.

Spell > Enemies
Fireball  > 2
Firestorm > 4
Cone of Cold  > 3
Chain of Lightning > 2
Tempest > 8
Hemorhage > 3
Fist of the maker > 6

So, example Tempest requires hiting 8 enemies to arrive same damage what Firestorm does by hiting only about 4 enemies. Spell AoE DPS with these amoung of enemies is about between 40-50, what's also close to what single attack spell DPS have 34-69. Did not count horror as it's DPS is so low. So this means fireball hiting 2 enemy gives about same DPS than Winter's Grasp hiting 1 enemy.

Modifié par Lumikki, 02 avril 2011 - 02:09 .

[Att3r0]

tempest ticks for 121 (60) every 2s cough.
You somehow ignored the resistance factor

out 25 enemy typess on the list
for fire resistance we got :
6 immunes
16 with normal fire resistance (damage is halved or more so the damage is less then 200)
3 low fire resistance

and same for cold:
4 immune
10 normal
11 low

Now how are you gonna factor those numbers into the dps calculation ?
Mage aoe can be good on normal when you dont have imunities probably most stuff is with low resist , you dont have FF , they have much lower hp and you can just pummel them with all you got.
On NM casting a tempest that does 600-1200 dam over its duration when even the most lesser enemy got over 1k hp is like calling for agro. I dont say i dont use just when 2h warior rushes in things just die. As comparison i took fenris gave him some random 35str req weapon and he was pulling 1200 dam scythe and 800 dam wirlwind (no crit talent) with just claymore buff..

Modifié par Att3r0, 02 avril 2011 - 02:37 .

[Lumikki]

It's impossible to calculated everyting. Example do we know how many enemies there is and what type of they are?

Example, if there is 100 enemies with immunity A type, while there is 5 enemies immunity for type B. They aren't equal valued.

How much does normal and low resistance affects the damage?

How usefull spells are with FF on in NM based different situations, because if you can't use the spells because FF, it lowers it DPS?

Modifié par Lumikki, 02 avril 2011 - 02:55 .

[rumination888]

Att3r0 wrote...
As comparison i took fenris gave him some random 35str req weapon and he was pulling 1200 dam scythe and 800 dam wirlwind (no crit talent) with just claymore buff..

Winter's Grasp has a 4.5x damage multiplier. Hitting an enemy weak to cold multiplies this by 2. With "full elemental" like you claim, you would further multiply the damage by 1.25

Scythe, with its upgrade, has a 4.5x multiplier. Cleave multiplies this by 2. If Fenris was at 1% health, he would multiply the damage further by 1.99

Your "tests" are inconclusive and your comparison has too many holes.

Modifié par rumination888, 02 avril 2011 - 02:57 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

The test is how fast a character can consistently kill on NM. Mage Hawke is the clear loser there.

[rumination888]

m14567 wrote...

If you are going to include elemental weaknesses then warriors and rogues can use 'elemental' damage weapons, so fenris (at say 50% health) gets with scythe
x4.5x2(cleave)x2(elemental weakness)x1.5(50% veneer of calm)=27

A mage with full elemental on winter's grasp gets
x4.5x2(elemental weakness)x1.25(elemental mastery)=11.25
so you are gonna need a lot of +elemental damage equipment to get close.

Your comparison has holes in it, just like the OP.

Two-handers only have Anderfel Cleaver until Act 3.
One-handers only have Desdemona until Act 3.

[22nd MadJack]

Generally as a Mage on Nightmare, if a damage spell isn't part of a class combo it isn't worth taking.

[rumination888]

m14567 wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

m14567 wrote...

If you are going to include elemental weaknesses then warriors and rogues can use 'elemental' damage weapons, so fenris (at say 50% health) gets with scythe
x4.5x2(cleave)x2(elemental weakness)x1.5(50% veneer of calm)=27

A mage with full elemental on winter's grasp gets
x4.5x2(elemental weakness)x1.25(elemental mastery)=11.25
so you are gonna need a lot of +elemental damage equipment to get close.

Your comparison has holes in it, just like the OP.

Two-handers only have Anderfel Cleaver until Act 3.
One-handers only have Desdemona until Act 3.

A pretty big difference come act 3 I would say.

I'm not gonna lie, the itemization in Act 3 isn't in favor of the Mage.(Final Thought is one of the worst staffs in the game due to being physical damage)
But thats a problem with itemization, not the Mage itself.

[rumination888]

m14567 wrote...

Fair enough, not really sure why Final Thought doing physical damage is germane to winter's grasp damage vs scythe but you feel staves not leveling is the bigger issue. I'm not sure I really agree with that but lines have been drawn, I doubt there is much more here for me other than circular debate.

/sigh

Because Winter's Grasp is cold damage.
Warriors don't have access to a cold weapon until the last Act, hence; using weakness to cold modifiers for a warrior is disingenious. This isn't an MMO where the end game is all that matters in terms of balance.

[Att3r0]

rumination888 wrote...

Att3r0 wrote...
As comparison i took fenris gave him some random 35str req weapon and he was pulling 1200 dam scythe and 800 dam wirlwind (no crit talent) with just claymore buff..

Winter's Grasp has a 4.5x damage multiplier. Hitting an enemy weak to cold multiplies this by 2. With "full elemental" like you claim, you would further multiply the damage by 1.25

Scythe, with its upgrade, has a 4.5x multiplier. Cleave multiplies this by 2. If Fenris was at 1% health, he would multiply the damage further by 1.99

Your "tests" are inconclusive and your comparison has too many holes.

did you even read my first post? if you would then you would know that every spell was tested wtih full talent improvements and on targets with "low"resistance. I even named what did i test it on.  So the values are best case in case of mage spells. As for for fenris i just took him gave him weapon pushed talents down 2h tree scythe got its UP so does wirlwind but i didnt take the 100% crit on lesser for ww. Then i went for some kirkwall gang hunt and posted numbers..

Final Thought is good. Well it doesnt let you use weakness but then you dont need to swap coz target is immune. Its bad when you want to use elemental weapons but got merrill for that.  It has highest dps so in this sense its best. Finally. I wish we would have a spell doing nature damage so i could use the bonus on it i realy do...

@Lumikki exactly then why try to calculate dps on aoe spells ? thats not gonna lead us anywhere. What i tye to do is show that even best case damage for mages is lower then that what other classes can pull while dont need to worry about resistances.

Modifié par Att3r0, 02 avril 2011 - 04:02 .