74 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumikki]

Att3r0 wrote...

@Lumikki exactly then why try to calculate dps on aoe spells ? thats not gonna lead us anywhere. What i tye to do is show that even best case damage for mages is lower then that what other classes can pull while dont need to worry about resistances.

Because resistance isn't everyting. Example lets make assumption that low and normal resistance different is half the damage. Now when consider total damage of AoE's, then it means low resistance only need half the amount of enemies to get same DPS than normal resistance. You can't just ignore some AoE because there is more immuties without knowing how many immune enemies there really is, some AoE could do alot better damage for those than aren't immune.

So, when you play in NM, you need to know how many enemies you need to kill to keep DPS as high as single spells. So, if AoE requires everytime 4 enemies it's more than AoE what requires only 2 to reach same DPS. So, because FF can force you miss fire AoE in different location, because you try to avoid FF. You need to know how many enemies you need to get to it to be worth of using. More enemies AoE requires, consider how many you usally are able to attack, harder it will be use.

The secondary effects of AoE's are also important, what allows "cross" class attacks, because they can increase damage alot too. Then there is also control effects what most AoE has included. Like you sayed, it's very complex situation. But it's good to know the differences between AoE DPS too, to notice when something is uselfull. And not just make decission based by immunities or looking some damage numbers flowting in screen.

Modifié par Lumikki, 02 avril 2011 - 05:12 .

[rumination888]

Att3r0 wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

Att3r0 wrote...
As comparison i took fenris gave him some random 35str req weapon and he was pulling 1200 dam scythe and 800 dam wirlwind (no crit talent) with just claymore buff..

Winter's Grasp has a 4.5x damage multiplier. Hitting an enemy weak to cold multiplies this by 2. With "full elemental" like you claim, you would further multiply the damage by 1.25

Scythe, with its upgrade, has a 4.5x multiplier. Cleave multiplies this by 2. If Fenris was at 1% health, he would multiply the damage further by 1.99

Your "tests" are inconclusive and your comparison has too many holes.

did you even read my first post? if you would then you would know that every spell was tested wtih full talent improvements and on targets with "low"resistance. I even named what did i test it on.  So the values are best case in case of mage spells. As for for fenris i just took him gave him weapon pushed talents down 2h tree scythe got its UP so does wirlwind but i didnt take the 100% crit on lesser for ww. Then i went for some kirkwall gang hunt and posted numbers..

Final Thought does 48 base damage. Winter's Grasp, against a qunari, with "full elemental" would deal +540 damage before magic attribute modifiers, and before +cold damage modifiers from items.

Limbtaker has a strength requirement of 39 and does 35 base damage.(so higher than your "test" with Fenris) Limbtaker would increase Scythe's damage by 315 with Cleave(or 472 at half health) before strength attribute modifiers and +phys damage modifiers from items.

What you did was take anecdotal evidence of the best damage number you saw from Fenris(I still have no idea what other items Fenris was wearing, how much health he had, or if those numbers were from a crit or not) and compared it to what you THINK is the best case for mage spells. Then you concluded that "Mage NM - spells too weak".

Modifié par rumination888, 02 avril 2011 - 05:32 .

[Att3r0]

For crying out loud.
I found a suitable save from my warrior play , 21 lv (mages is 20) limbreaker . +15% physical on gear and another 10% on the sword. cri chance 26%. Reaver +templar.
same gang in kirkwall as on mage. I use might and heroic aura.
And now a regular scythe - 270 hit 500 crit . WW 262 hit 677 crit (crit was done on mage so lower armor).
+claymore - scythe 400 hit 773 crit. WW - 422 672 708 922. health 90%+
and now Sacrificial Frenzy ~50% hp - WW 922 930 1611 , scythe 1650 1700. Record 2.4k scythe and 2.5k with some lowish hp

i dont need to control anyone but my warrior (party isabela varric anders) nor use any CCC and things just explode.
How does it compare vs a healthy 400 fireball 0 cold damage coz they are immune and 250 CL hit coz they are not vulnerable? thow in tempest for 60 dam every 2 sek..... add 40% to those numbers if i would stack some +%fire/ele dam no idea how..


and regarding ealier acts - for sure low lv dont favor mage. in act 3 you at least can have some CC+3 element spells. Ealier you will have to do with just 2 elements and if things are immune to electriity (i bet you get those first) like qunari you are in a bit  ***.

Modifié par Att3r0, 02 avril 2011 - 07:49 .

[CerealWar]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

my 2nd mage always has the back up stagger.

My problem isn't the fact that a single mage party can easily miss the stagger opportunity. It's that Bioware changed the direction of the franchise to fix a problem that they didn't fix. Button = Awesome?

Modifié par CerealWar, 02 avril 2011 - 08:28 .

[rumination888]

Att3r0 wrote...

For crying out loud.
I found a suitable save from my warrior play , 21 lv (mages is 20) limbreaker . +15% physical on gear and another 10% on the sword. cri chance 26%. Reaver +templar.
same gang in kirkwall as on mage. I use might and heroic aura.
And now a regular scythe - 270 hit 500 crit . WW 262 hit 677 crit (crit was done on mage so lower armor).
+claymore - scythe 400 hit 773 crit. WW - 422 672 708 922. health 90%+
and now Sacrificial Frenzy ~50% hp - WW 922 930 1611 , scythe 1650 1700. Record 2.4k scythe and 2.5k with some lowish hp

i dont need to control anyone but my warrior (party isabela varric anders) nor use any CCC and things just explode.
How does it compare vs a healthy 400 fireball 0 cold damage coz they are immune and 250 CL hit coz they are not vulnerable? thow in tempest for 60 dam every 2 sek..... add 40% to those numbers if i would stack some +%fire/ele dam no idea how..


and regarding ealier acts - for sure low lv dont favor mage. in act 3 you at least can have some CC+3 element spells. Ealier you will have to do with just 2 elements and if things are immune to electriity (i bet you get those first) like qunari you are in a bit  ***.

Thats what a Firestorm looks like when you're packing +82% fire damage from gear, and the Torch of Falon'Din staff.

Not sure why you think I wouldn't have all three elements in Act 1. By level 7, you can have Chain Lightning + CCC upgrade, Winter's Grasp, Cone of Cold, and Staff of Parthalan + Pyromancer(100-150 damage per auto-attack against enemies weak to fire, fyi).

[Att3r0]

if you go for 3 elements at low lv menas you dont have any CC gonna be fun with arcane horrors and sins
EDIT: oh yea that also means you dont have heal

As for the firestorm - thats rly good spell for owning your own team or not hiting anyone with it (fire is also the worst school when it comes for enemy resistance).. 82% fire damage - robe from emphorium for 140g and ring for 106g or so.. I wonder how long you were saving for it? did you buy tomes? for sure you didnt buy Final Thought
And even with this the damage is still behind.

Modifié par Att3r0, 02 avril 2011 - 10:04 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Att3r0 wrote...

if you go for 3 elements at low lv menas you dont have any CC gonna be fun with arcane horrors and sins

Not to mention that without Unshakable the mage gets pimp slapped all over the battlefield. The time staggered from arrows or knocked on our butt decreases your dps output.

[rumination888]

1.) Freeze effect is CC. Heal is overrated. Companions can bring what you don't have.
Your underlying statement also affects warriors and rogues, so you're just pulling straws now.

2.) Firestorm a good spell for owning my team? More straw pulling.

3.) I thought I made it clear in an earlier post that I said Final Thought sucked. Why on earth would I waste gold on a staff that sucked?

4.) I made over 400 gold throughout the game.

5.) Firestorm drops more than once, incase you conveniently forgot.

6.) The only thing that staggers a mage without Unshakeable are wasp spiders, abominations, and certain mob abilities(wing buffet, assassin stealth, etc). If you're getting staggered by arrows, then maybe its your own fault that mages suck.

Modifié par rumination888, 02 avril 2011 - 10:34 .

[Att3r0]

1) Freeze is much less reliable then horror or petrify and how to compare freeze with gravity ring ? no idea ..Heal is overrated? well its not diablo i feel bad that when i pot and i like selling them not using. And only healer in game is anders - i dislike him was so happy to let him sit in his sinkhole.

2)Firestorm is FF aoe over time meaning you can not enter the area during duration and apart from archers that dont sit bunched all melee will leave the area before geting hit second time. And the hits are random! yea !

3) Final Though only sucks if you want to use elemental weakness for standard attacks. But when it comes for casting spells it gives a 14% increase towards Torch of Falon'Din or any other staff. this bonus is dont add but multiply with +% damage, there is also the +4 magic bonus and chance on hit/mana bonus. Finally if you want use elemental weakness vs for example orsino you will have to resolve to randomly generated staff.and reduce your base for spells even further.

4) i was asking if you were able to afford it at start of act 3? and if you bought tomes . I had ~210g at start of act 3 so cant afford robe+ring.

5)and doesnt cover whole area but a random portion.

6) Its based on how much %health the attack took . im quite sure any elite hit will cause it. Unshakable is one point wonder without it you need decent health armor and rock armor to not to end up like a hit doll.

Modifié par Att3r0, 02 avril 2011 - 11:18 .

[Jack-Nader]

Well mages certainly are not overpowered like they were in DA:O but they still are very strong. Hawke mage with spirit healer is the single hardest playable character in the game to kill due to the +200 health regeneration effect and high armor rating. You also have access to staves with all elemental damage output types meaning you can swap in any staff type you like and maximize your damage output. Mages are also much more party friendly in nightmare mode as warriors tend to wipe out your party with their offensive talent spam. It gets old very quickly.

[rumination888]

Att3r0 wrote...

1) Freeze is much less reliable then horror or petrify and how to compare freeze with gravity ring ? no idea ..Heal is overrated? well its not diablo i feel bad that when i pot and i like selling them not using. And only healer in game is anders - i dislike him was so happy to let him sit in his sinkhole.

2)Firestorm is FF aoe over time meaning you can not enter the area during duration and apart from archers that dont sit bunched all melee will leave the area before geting hit second time. And the hits are random! yea !

3) Final Though only sucks if you want to use elemental weakness for standard attacks. But when it comes for casting spells it gives a 14% increase towards Torch of Falon'Din or any other staff. this bonus is dont add but multiply with +% damage, there is also the +4 magic bonus and chance on hit/mana bonus. Finally if you want use elemental weakness vs for example orsino you will have to resolve to randomly generated staff.and reduce your base for spells even further.

4) i was asking if you were able to afford it at start of act 3? and if you bought tomes . I had ~210g at start of act 3 so cant afford robe+ring.

5)and doesnt cover whole area but a random portion.

6) Its based on how much %health the attack took . im quite sure any elite hit will cause it. Unshakable is one point wonder without it you need decent health armor and rock armor to not to end up like a hit doll.

1.) This line of argument isnt even relevant to whether or not "spells are too weak".

2.) Look at my screenshot. Do you see the 26 damage I took? That was from Firestorm. Do I care that I got hit by Firestorm? No. Why? Because I kill enemies a helluva lot faster than they'd kill me.

3.) Staff of Falon'Din adds +16% fire damage. It also carries 2 rune slots, perfect for a Primeval Lyrium Rune.
Eye of the Storm adds +15% electric damage. Orsino is also weak to electricity.
Both staffs are free.

4.) You bought Final Thought. I didn't. Think about that for a second.

5.) I never had a problem with the randomness of it(probably because I don't bother to use it until its upgraded). The fire covers a very large portion of the area it drops in. Anything in the radial's direct center will get hit by the fire.

6.)  Who says I don't have enough health and armor to not get knocked around by an elite? I probably have more tankability in that screenshot than your typical offensive warrior.

Modifié par rumination888, 03 avril 2011 - 12:18 .

[Att3r0]

1) CC > dps spells in terms of importance

2) High MR + FR - what about ealier acts when you dont get that healthy bonus +10 to all stats? and what about companions ? did you socket htem for FR jsut for sake they dont get 1 shoted by it? even if, the damage still will be 50 for non mage ones.

3)You forgot to mention that Eye of the storm is 37 damage compared vs 48 of final making a 30% increase for final Though and this "bonus" is multiplicative with the rest of +%damage .

4) start act 3 = just as i loaded = no final Though bought yet.

5)again try hiting melee - sins &co

6)its the counterproduct of bioware preventing mages from using warrior armor.. Champions chest is 331 for warior , 281 for mage and the robe from eporium is 307 armor. And with the way the rock armor works yea you can have alot of reduction. but you still dont have physical resistance so like you siad there are planty of attacks that will knock you. Ah and you can get the high mitigation only in act 3 so how fun is whole act 2 with no unshakable?

Back again to the damage. there are only 3 enemies that have low fire res - kirkwall tevinter and pride demon. so your firestorm will only do good damage in 10% of time. How reliable is that?
and keep 2 things in mind - you had to buy the armor /ring and maybe more while my warior i had no bought gear nor even Rune of Valiance.
seconds warrior can use elemental weapon to exploit weaknes.

Modifié par Att3r0, 03 avril 2011 - 09:09 .

[rumination888]

Too.Many.Faulty.Premises.And.Assumptions

www.youtube.com/watch

www.youtube.com/watch

[Lumikki]

Att3r0 wrote...


Back again to the damage. there are only 3 enemies that have low fire res - kirkwall tevinter and pride demon. so your firestorm will only do good damage in 10% of time. How reliable is that?

You don't need low resistance to kill something. What you need is just do enough damage as total. Remember most damage spells also has control effect inbuild in them. So, they aren't just damage spells, but control spells too.

Basicly sayed, if you reduse you offense, you need to increase you defence.

Modifié par Lumikki, 03 avril 2011 - 02:28 .

[Apathy1989]

I, too, am sad that mages are now limited to healing and completing combos.

Its hard to take everyone seriously that mages are a massive threat when my warrior or rogue could destroy my mage. At least in origins mages were destroyers, but weak. Now they are just weak.

[Att3r0]

wow the sharpening wolves is one of easiest things in game. I had no problems with it with my mage having only primal and force spells.

and since Night Lies are weak to fire... 2 screens
img688.imageshack.us/i/startpe.jpg/
img219.imageshack.us/i/endtm.jpg/
2 maned, didnt use dog ,anders is uisng his start staff, stuns were annoying and caused me to pot .10lv
 And  btw did you notice you did more damage with staff 120-180 then firestorm ? 200 and you killed varric with it. i know it was accident but you did use it in another room if there would be only 1 room and small one.
next time pick smth with assasins ;]


@Lumikki control effect will only happen if the spell did enough damage. Showing a fight vs thigns weak to fire while you are speced and geared for fire doesnt show the whole pictur. Also i didnt not ever had problems in the game due to normal/lesser targets but sins multiple rage demons and some other elites.

Modifié par Att3r0, 03 avril 2011 - 05:09 .

[rumination888]

Att3r0 wrote...

wow the sharpening wolves is one of easiest things in game. I had no problems with it with my mage having only primal and force spells.

and since Night Lies are weak to fire... 2 screens
img688.imageshack.us/i/startpe.jpg/
img219.imageshack.us/i/endtm.jpg/
2 maned, didnt use dog ,anders is uisng his start staff, stuns were annoying and caused me to pot .10lv
 And  btw did you notice you did more damage with staff 120-180 then firestorm ? 200 and you killed varric with it. i knwo it was accident but you did use it in another room if there would be only 1 room and small one.
next time pick smth with assasins ;]

So are you saying "Mage NM - spells too strong"? I don't even know what you're arguing about now.

[Att3r0]

rumination888 wrote...

So are you saying "Mage NM - spells too strong"? I don't even know what you're arguing about now.

is staff attack a spell ? ó
You must be realy missunderstanding something. Maybe the fire damage is confusing you? its my warrior damage.

Modifié par Att3r0, 03 avril 2011 - 05:12 .

[rumination888]

Att3r0 wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

So are you saying "Mage NM - spells too strong"? I don't even know what you're arguing about now.

is staff attack a spell ? ó
You must be realy missunderstanding something. Maybe the fire damage is confusing you? its my warrior damage.

Upgraded Firestorm has a damage multiplier of 1.7. It also hits multiple times. Your Scythe hit once.

[Lumikki]

Are you sayed spells are too weak or mage has to rely too much on staff. Doesn't that mean more like spells aren't weak, just too long cool downs, because so much staff is used.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Lumikki wrote...

Are you sayed spells are too weak or mage has to rely too much on staff. Doesn't that mean more like spells aren't weak, just too long cool downs, because so much staff is used.

There are a number of reasons DA2 mages suck in comparison with the other classes:
1) Long cooldowns on spells
2) Needing 2 or 3 spell picks to make a spell halfway decent.
3) The spells overall do poor damage.
4) Long casting animations for a number of  spells.
5) Dual immunities to elements
6) Specializations that suck.

OK, the Healer spec makes yiou a "good healer" in that you can cast a group heal spell once every 40 seconds. How exciting! The Force Mage tree has a grad total of one rather low damage spell. Yipppeeeee! All the spells there are friendly fire too. Gravitic Ring is ok in certain situations. That leaves Blood mage. Once again, a grand total of 1 damage spell to cast every 30 seconds for a grand total of 6 spell picks.

It just seems the game was designed to make warrior and rogue play exciting and to make mages to be healbot/buffboys.

Sure, you can pick a battle here and there to make it look like the mage can kill at a decent speed. But overall their killing speed sucks on Nightmare.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 03 avril 2011 - 06:12 .

[Att3r0]

1.7 multiplier doesnt change the fact that staff still did more damage even while firestorm did hit a sold amount of targets.
scythe does 3x damage without reaver talents or +% gear. also if things die with one blow why would i need to use it again ?

@Lumikki spells do fair damage when targets are weak to given element. This is good when its electricity so you can fire safely. when its fire or cold and you are surrounded things are no so pretty. You need to pull back and let tank grab things so far so good but when tere are some massive damage dealers like arcane horors assasins etc things get messy.

Also when it comes to killing bosses /elites you are down to using your staff..
Obiously reducing CD on spell leads to increasing the overal damage you will do with it.

I dont say you cant win things as mage just you dont become weapon of mass destruction like its with warrior nor a killer as rogue.

[UsualSuspekt907]

I think most of you are missing something here. Each class has his/her speciality. A rogue does incredible single target dps. A warrior has decent aoe, decent single damage, and great survivability. A mage has meh single target dps, but here is where the mage really shines - debuffing and AoE damage. You need to embrace the rolls each character has and play to that strength. Its moot to sit here and say a mage sucks at single target dps because a mage, in this game, is not meant to be the single target dps'er of the group. That is the job of the rogue and, to a much lesser extent, the warrior. The mage is there to take out big groups of enemies and debuff the bosses for further exploitation by other party members. Now take into account all the extra damage your party is doing because of your debuffs and there ya go.

Now this is a single player game and you can certainly play however you want. You can make any class do whatever you want but the classes, as designed, have certain rolls they excel at. I would never sit here and try to tell people how to play a game. However its a pretty big waste of time to debate over how weak mages spells are compared to other classes. Used correctly each class is just as effective as the other, just in different ways.

Apples and Oranges here fellas in my opinion

Just my 2 cents. No need to flame

[Roxlimn]

iOnlySignIn:

It's better than Horror in some ways because it can actually do significant damage to Staggered enemies, and affects multiple targets. Very handy for setting up the AoE effects.