74 réponses à ce sujet

[ezrafetch]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

OP, Undead/Skeletons are weak to Spirit, not Electricity; Shades are immune to Spirit and weak to Electricity. So the Electricity part of your test is not done under the same condition as others, and Chain Lightning/Tempest are actually better than your test suggests.

IN1's Weakness guide

Generic undead type (including corpses, skeletons, shadow warrior captains): C=normal, E=low, F=normal, N=immune, S=low.

Undead ARE weak to lightning, not just spirit.  I usually roll with Lightning since Undead tend to like spawning with Shades/Demons.

Re: + Fire Damage gear, sure they are abundant and when stacked give impressive stats, but + Physical Damage, + Critical Damage (Hello, Stealth Boots) and Critical Chance gears are just as abundant and just as stackable for Warriors/Rogues. And Warriors/Rogues don't have to completely switch their gear set when faced with a Fire immune enemy.

Change one staff?  That's not a "complete gear switch" as far as I know.

Finally, Fist of the Maker is more of a CC spell instead of a direct damage spell. It has very short cooldown and reliably knocks Assassins flat on the ground. As good a CC on NM as Horror (which lasts 2.5 seconds).

I use it for damage all the time, especially if Chain Lightning + Chain Reaction is on cooldown.  Depending obviously on Armor ratings, I can get 500-800 damage out of that CCC, which is totally satisfactory for a secondary stagger exploitation.  But it is also great for it's CC, that's for sure.

Modifié par ezrafetch, 10 avril 2011 - 12:09 .

[Roxlimn]

Avoiding Friendly Fire only applies at Nightmare. Still, I tried to be good about not putting my peeps inside effects that have FF, so the NM wasn't that drastic for me. Mainly, managing FF has to do with positioning both your allies and the enemies. If you position Aveline so that she's right smack dab in the middle of every enemy, then it'll be harder to use Fist.

Most battles in the game take place on an expanded battlefield. You don't have to fight the mobs right where they spawn - I usually find that that's a bad idea. It's not necessary to cover the field in the effect. In fact, you will usually want to cast it lopsided, to avoid FF. Don't forget that it doesn't actually affect Hawke - just whoever else is caught in it.

[HTTP 404]

I think the enemy resistances and immunities kill the mages. It would be nice if they halved the resistences and give immunities to boss types.

[ezrafetch]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

You should also be wearing tons of Fire enhancing trinkets (Rings, Amulets, etc.). It'd be better to switch to something else against Dragons/Qunari, so you should keep different sets of trinkets in your Inventory, which incidentally takes up more inventory space.

Personally, to switch out +Elemental equipment for every mook fight is too much effort, so I just change the staff.  Min-maxing?  No, but the majority of your gains are from switching to the correct enemy weakness anyways so it doesn't bother me terribly.

Well, how can you avoid Friendly Fire? The 10m radius is as large as Firestorm, and yet you cannot stack resistance runes on Aveline/Fenris like you do with Firestorm (since Fist does Physical damage and ignores Armor). Many of the battlefields are effectively smaller than a 10m radius disk in this game. Hell, if the upgrade comes with a 900% stagger bonus but no radius increase, I'd take it.

I don't avoid FF, actually. :innocent:

I try to avoid hitting Aveline, but if it's between only hitting one staggered guy vs. hitting 5-6, then I'm taking the 5-6 dead dudes and a hurt Aveline.  She has such a high armor rating that it's not a big deal, it's probably about 1/8 of her health.  I play as FM/SH so I just heal her right back up and keep on trucking...

If you play as SH, you can be a lot more reckless with your spell placement, which is a major, major plus.

[Roxlimn]

iOnlySignIn:

But that's the best way for her to get staggers from Cleave, no?

No. Generally, you want all the enemies clumped on one side of Aveline in a 90 degree arc. This allows her to fully unload with Cleave+Assault. This also makes it ridiculously easy to massively exploit the Staggers the combo would produce, so long as the enemies don't fly off from the damage.

Aveline's Shield Bash produces reliable Staggers that last longer than the one imposed by Claymore, as far as I can gauge. Could be that I'm prepared so it seems to last longer. It also usually sends the enemy flying, so that's another tool for enemy placement.

I do that all the time, which made me realize that a *smaller* radius Fist actually allows me to cover *more* enemies because I don't have to cast it lopsided as much. Sounds paradoxical, but true.

It's not true at all. You have to cast Fist lopsided in any event, if you don't want to catch any allies in it. Having it have a bigger radius means that it has a flatter circumference - this allows you to more closely approximate a straight line of skirmish, meaning you should be catching more guys with it. If you're not, you're just not placing it as well as you should.

Using the outer circumference to target enemies is key to using both Fist and Pull to max effect. This is particularly true for Pull. You want as many mobs as possible on the furtherest boundaries of the effect so as to have maximum clumping. Then use Fist to pin them down while your other guys cast their AoEs. Profit!

[ezrafetch]

Well, Fist of the Maker ignores Armor, so even if Aveline has 100% Armor, you'd still probably severely damage her. Unless you buff her up first with a Stonewall/Barrier, which is hard because Fist of the Maker is kind of a "rapid reaction" spell.

Yeah, that's a huge merit of Spirit Healer, or Heal in general. There are times when I would go "Damn it, I'm just going to nuke your face and apologize later."

Ha, well, you learn something new every day, eh?  I'm then guessing then the reason why Aveline makes it out "relatively" unscathed while enemy dudes don't is because the enemies are staggered while she is not, which explains the crazy damage difference (900% is an awful lot, I suppose).

And yes, that is why I never leave home without Spirit Healer...

[Roxlimn]

I generally pause the game more than usual, I think, though about as much as GOW does from his vids. Not as much running. I prefer killing mobs most of the time. Running's cool, though.

In general, I use Aveline for Stagger spammage. Since I discovered Claymore, I've specced her to have Shield Bash, Pommel Strike (both upgraded), and Claymore on Assault (not Assail - different power).

This means that she has three different ways to create Staggers. Depending on party comp and field conditions, I'll also bring along Fenris for even more Stagger spammage - not recommended for close battle conditions (they'll hit each other on NM).

There are ways and means to manipulate enemy placement. Generally, they aim to bum rush you and engage in melee. There are ways to exploit that. For instance, you can place a Gravitic Ring and run yourself into it, if you're "it." This'll catch a lot of mobs without using a Pull. Then use Aveline's Shield Bash and Telekinetic Burst to toss stragglers in.

Another way is to find a convenient doorway and post Aveline on it while the rest of your crew stays well behind. Mobs clump in the doorway and you can have your way with them.

In a more crowded situation, you can use Aveline's Closing Attack and her Assault and Taunt to get the mobs on her, then kite them away from one side of a room to the other. Once you get them in a situation where Aveline is at one side while they're on another, Fist away. Scatter is nice for this (but it's deep in Aveline's Shield Style tree).

In a more general way, I like using CCCs a lot. Much of the point of getting Elemental Mastery for me is the 100% Brittle chance on Normals. This means that I want at least two other members on the team who can exploit the condition - Fenris and Varric are my go-to guys.

[Roxlimn]

Yeah, the Fighter AI's dumb as a brick in this game. There's nothing in the Tactics that'll fix it, as far as I know. You have to manually control the Fighter/s or they'll suicide themselves in any number of really, really useless ways.

Assault with Claymore will usually proc at least once, usually twice or thrice if you have many enemies caught in it. I use it every time it's off cooldown and there's a nice clump of enemies to abuse. Telekinetic Burst is... ...tricky. The first playthrough I just used it as soft control - I toss aside Archers into places they can't shoot so my guys take less damage. Works on melee, too, actually.

Once you use it a lot, you get a feel for how to place it so that your targets go where you want them to. I've upgraded nearly all the Force powers. They feel unwieldy at first, but you get used to it. Caveat, again - I pause. I pause a lot, and I use the Hold Position function. Occasionally, this will result in Aveline not doing anything, but that's my fault, then. It's still better than having her wander into the kill zone of a Tempest + Firestorm combo.

Extra tip: if your mates are in the Ring, you can use Telekinetic Burst to blow them out of it, no damage.

Try this:

If you're facing a bunch of human, non-Cold immune guys, use Pull + Fist to localize them.
While that's happening, order Fenris to flank the left, activate Claymore, then order Mage Hawke to the right. 
Use CoC on the clump.
All Normals should now be Brittle.  Use Fenris to Scythe/Reaper through the bunch. (Careful with Hawke!)  This should also ideally trigger a bunch of Staggers.
Now Chain Lightning them.

I love Scythe because the range is great.  It means I can confidently Winter's Grasp an elite without hitting Fenris, then he can just Scythe on over, no problem.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 10 avril 2011 - 03:28 .

[Roxlimn]

Shattering Blow/Killing Blow is a nice single target damage power in conjunction with Brittle, but it takes a little long to wind up unless you're right in the enemy's face. It works best with the single-target Petrify/Dessicate. You don't have to have one or the other. You can do both.

Use WG as opener, capitalizing with Reaper, then use Dessicate and capitalize again with Shattering Blow.

Fully upgraded CoC with Elemental Mastery absolutely gets the Brittle 100% of the time.  That's is the entire point of getting Elemental Mastery.  Well, the damage is handy as well, but the real money is in the Brittle.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 10 avril 2011 - 08:20 .

[Att3r0]

put the CCC out of this - you would need to ask whats more important aplying status or using it?
Mages are good at applying Brittle and that translates to alot of damage other classses can do thanks to that.

as for using status only reliable CCC for mage would be improved fist of the maker - however damage is still rather low and it also get area increase what $#@ you on NM.
CL CCC is nice but on targets with normal resistance its not that good - the damage should be enough to kill normals but elites wont feel it.
Hemorhage - too expensive too limited (but good damage)
Crushing prison - more worthy due to its CC part then the extra damage.

[Roxlimn]

Att3r0:

I generally don't think of DA:O as a multiplayer game, so I tend to think of the Hawke classes as parts of a team rather than as solo individuals. So it doesn't matter to me who sets it up and who capitalizes - I just want it done, and as often as possible.

In my playthroughs, I've noticed that Mages are the go-to guys for making the CCCs happen. Rogue Disorients are not reliable, and Rogue capitalizing on Staggers is either deep or melee, so it can be unreliable.

In contrast, Mages setting up and capitalizing on CCCs is really effective. They're the tail end of the Stagger ones, and the set up end on the Brittle ones. Ranged CCC for Elite elimination via Archer's Lance is super-effective. Set up with WG for more damage and the Cold Element bonus.

Thus, when I lose my Mages in any team, I tend to feel kind of eviscerated. My buffs go away or my CCC setups and takedowns get taken away. In contrast, losing Aveline or Fenris in a fight is not as bad. Varric can still use his Lance for killing, and you can always kite (or use Merrill as backup tank).

[Att3r0]

@Roxlimn thats opposite then, with lack of tactical view i feel bound to my Hawke. ofc mages are important but hmm maybe i should have approached it differently .. problem is that hawke as mage dont feel special at all. Anders is much better mage if not for vengance damage taken increase you could probably run him as dps mage and your mage as healer... (you still can do it but he dies fast)

[Roxlimn]

Anders is a mini-Hawke in the same way that Fenris is also a mini-Hawke. In all of my playthroughs, the Mage is always, always the party lynchpin. You build your party around the Mage if you're doing serious CCC or AoE ownage. AreleX's Mach 5 party build is different in that he's building his party around his Warrior, which makes sense if you're Warrior Hawke.

Anders can do a serious amount of DPS if you spend on Vengeance, but there are caveats to that. For every skill Anders spends on that tree, Hawke can just take more powers - Chain Lightning and the rest of the Primal tree being the most significant. And Hawke doesn't take more damage to do it. Spirit Healer Hawke I have no concrete experience on, so I can't compare him to Panacea Anders.

Between his armor bonuses, his higher number of skill picks, better tree access, and higher attributes, Hawke is just a better all-around Mage. It's pretty special to have both Primal and Elemental tree spells with Blood Mage or Force Mage support. Late in the game, with Gravitic Ring, Tempest, and Firestorm, Hawke's just a one-man wrecking ball.

[Att3r0]

Anders only dont have access to entropy from base trees so i dont know what you mean with hawke picking more power. Anders do 30% more damage due to talents and being friendly - hawke must relay on gear for that. He also get the -20% cooldown and martyr that lets him cast another round of spells when hawke got half of cd left (or more). At the end of the day its fun that matters playing warrior and rogue is fun ...as mage ..well its not bad when you can cast gravity ring and pull of abyss but then suddently you dont have power to kill the elite/boss that got traped in (need probably rely on archers lance for that). and once gravity is out and another wave spawns you need to run ><

[Roxlimn]

Run? Why? Just massacre them with the usual AoEs. Not getting it.

Anders can't have full Vengeance and full Elemental and full Primal and full Creation. No Mage has enough points to spec like that. As I mentioned, every skill point Anders spends on his tree is skill points Hawke spends on acquiring activated abilities. An 80% cooldown reduction is comparable, but not necessarily superior.

Elites and boss are killed with Lance and Chain and Fist. Cold susceptible bosses are easier since the WG setup adds more damage.  I don't understand the logic that says that Firestorm and Fireball should be used against single targets.  Those are AoE effects.  There are single target spells.

I'm not getting where all the running and autoattacking is coming from. Have you seen AreleX's latest Mage vids? No one dies, enemies die en masse from area effects - and he doesn't run. He's a bit short on CCCs, but he's getting the job done well enough, so I can't complain.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 10 avril 2011 - 10:58 .

[Att3r0]

i said "Use your mage as support" (that means spirit healer and creation) and anders as DPS ( he dont take panace nor creation)

As for running - Alex is in act 1 with mage,i did act 1 till 10 lv on my rogue without picking any talent as i coudlnt decide to go archer or melee >< ...  I mean hard fights you know like the work one of us vs 5 sins or nexus etc. You cant massacre elites with aoe.

Modifié par Att3r0, 10 avril 2011 - 11:08 .

[Roxlimn]

The entire mindset changes depending on where you're basing your party. If you're focusing on the Mage aspect, you take care of elites with CC spells - petrify and such, while you nuke the hell out of everything.

A Rogue's power has a substantial amount of his efficacy placed in his higher base DPS, so you can get away with not picking up talents for a while. Neither a Mage nor a Fighter can do the same.

Using Hawke for support and Anders as DPS works in a glass-cannony sort of way, I suppose. If you like playing that way, more power. Don't mistake your preference as the only way Mage Hawke works, though. You can spec him for nuking and he'll work wonderfully well.

[Lumikki]

Why have support mage at all?

Modifié par Lumikki, 10 avril 2011 - 12:55 .

[Roxlimn]

Lumikki wrote...
Why have support mage at all?

Shrug.  Dunno.  Went with 3 offensive Ranged + Aveline on many battles in NM, and pretty much the whole of Hard and it was a cakewalk.  Multiple area effect damage on Gravitic is a sick, sick thing.