41 réponses à ce sujet

[Tainan7509]

I don't know why.. but i felt something wrong with Leliana her involvement. She became Divine's left hand for dirty work. This tells me that Divine is interested in DAO hero and DA2 Hawke. Tbh i still have a lot of uncomfortable feeling toward the entire chantry stuff and seeker's motivation. Hope to see something more shocking things in the next game.

Modifié par Tainan7509, 02 avril 2011 - 02:49 .

[LadyJaneGrey]

DeffFace wrote...
Further, I don't believe that they just said, "F it, retcon with no explanation." or, "Screw it if it doesn't make sense with the IP that we've invested a TON of time, money, man hours, and credibility creating, let's just rush this thing out the door so fanboi gamerz will buy it.". So, I'm trying to think of what those explanations might be. Varric making stuff up is one such, although it doesn't (hopefully) cover every inconsistency.

It's not that I think the writers do not care.  They just have an absurdly large amount of information to draw upon and keep straight, both from their own lore and from the choices the players are given in Origins, Awakening, and now DAII.  There will always need to be an overarching direction in a series of games set so closely together in time.  There will also always be some inconsistencies in a fictional work.

But I don't want many of the choices the player makes or different plot points to be easily changed or dismissed by "Varric lied."    Yes, I know it's a framed narrative, but using that excuse too often would completely distance the player from the character and world.  The writers created this engaging world and offered us ways to impact it.  Now they need to follow through to the best of their abilities.

[TJPags]

DeffFace wrote...

TJPags wrote...

"maker saved her" = "ashes saved her" = "mountain of lyrium saved her" = "Varric lied" = cheap way of fixing mistakes.

My point in this is to make you question whether something that LOOKS like a mistake, actually IS a mistake, or done on purpose, perhaps with an explanation that hasn't been seen yet.

I could be totally wrong here, but I don't believe that at Bioware, while making the game, no one noticed (for example) that the timeline with Anders is a bit off, or that, "Hey, isn't Leiliana dead for a lot of players?". Further, I don't believe that they just said, "F it, retcon with no explanation." or, "Screw it if it doesn't make sense with the IP that we've invested a TON of time, money, man hours, and credibility creating, let's just rush this thing out the door so fanboi gamerz will buy it.". So, I'm trying to think of what those explanations might be. Varric making stuff up is one such, although it doesn't (hopefully) cover every inconsistency.

But hey, maybe Bioware will prove my faith in their abilities misplaced. Until then, a pile of absurdly excellent games has earned them the benefit of the doubt, especially when there are other explanations available.

I think they've indicated that, based on their telemetry, very few people took that option.  I have no idea if that's true or not, but let's assume it is.

They still gave us the option.  Why do that, if she had a larger part to play, and they needed her alive?

I'm not a writer, I don't work for Bioware, I obviously have no idea what went on in their offices, or their heads.  I have no idea how detailed their outline for the DA series was, when they developed it, if it's a work in progress, or anything else.  I don't know if we'll get an explanation, what it will be, etc.

I do know that giving players an option to do something, then saying the "option" didn't exist, and there was only one answer, is bad form.  It smacks of either poor planning, or a changed mind.  And it diminishes the concept that "player choice" is considered important by Bioware.

[sphinxess]

If nothing you do in the game can be counted on to be the way things really happened - well I dont see how you can role-play successfully - its really slams you over the head as "this is just a game and you never were Hawke".

[Will Shred]

TJPags wrote...

DeffFace wrote...

TJPags wrote...

"maker saved her" = "ashes saved her" = "mountain of lyrium saved her" = "Varric lied" = cheap way of fixing mistakes.

My point in this is to make you question whether something that LOOKS like a mistake, actually IS a mistake, or done on purpose, perhaps with an explanation that hasn't been seen yet.

I could be totally wrong here, but I don't believe that at Bioware, while making the game, no one noticed (for example) that the timeline with Anders is a bit off, or that, "Hey, isn't Leiliana dead for a lot of players?". Further, I don't believe that they just said, "F it, retcon with no explanation." or, "Screw it if it doesn't make sense with the IP that we've invested a TON of time, money, man hours, and credibility creating, let's just rush this thing out the door so fanboi gamerz will buy it.". So, I'm trying to think of what those explanations might be. Varric making stuff up is one such, although it doesn't (hopefully) cover every inconsistency.

But hey, maybe Bioware will prove my faith in their abilities misplaced. Until then, a pile of absurdly excellent games has earned them the benefit of the doubt, especially when there are other explanations available.

I think they've indicated that, based on their telemetry, very few people took that option.  I have no idea if that's true or not, but let's assume it is.

They still gave us the option.  Why do that, if she had a larger part to play, and they needed her alive?

I'm not a writer, I don't work for Bioware, I obviously have no idea what went on in their offices, or their heads.  I have no idea how detailed their outline for the DA series was, when they developed it, if it's a work in progress, or anything else.  I don't know if we'll get an explanation, what it will be, etc.

I do know that giving players an option to do something, then saying the "option" didn't exist, and there was only one answer, is bad form.  It smacks of either poor planning, or a changed mind.  And it diminishes the concept that "player choice" is considered important by Bioware.

They could/should have handled it like what happens with Wrex in ME2 depending on whether or not you kill him in ME1. If he lived, he's the krogan chief. If he died, he's replaced by a generic krogan in the same spot. There's no reason why they couldn't have taken the same approach with Leliana, other than the heavy handed efforts they made to shoehorn most of the DA:O cast into DA2.

[Rifneno]

Jman5 wrote...

Saying Varric was lying is a cop-out of all cop-outs. It's up there with: It was just a dream!!

Granted there are small things put in there for comic relief or tutorial, but it's safe to say that everything outside the obvious is canon.

This.  If they wind up using "Varric was lying" as an excuse for retcons, I'll lose a great deal of respect for... pretty much anyone or anything involved with this series.

[Zan Mura]

As people have said, if you go down this path then nothing matters any longer. Nothing is real, anything can be a lie or misinformation, and all conclusions are based on compromised facts that may change at any time. As a result, this whole topic would be completely pointless.

Anyway, I've found that Occam's Razor really applies to pretty much everything, with very rare exceptions. And various different game devs themselves have often commented on how fantastical and far-fetched theorizing their fans are sometimes capable of. Simply put, what if we all live in the Matrix. I'll tell you what: nothing. It wouldn't change a damn thing, so best use your energy on something that may provide something useful.

[ad1dash0lm3s]

Yeah, I have been going around just reading a lot of forums like you say you have and that is what I was coming across. Varric is the world's best BSer. After thinking about that I played it through again and it made sense to me that it is very likely that is what happened.

Very nice post DeffFace

[DeffFace]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

DeffFace wrote...
Further, I don't believe that they just said, "F it, retcon with no explanation." or, "Screw it if it doesn't make sense with the IP that we've invested a TON of time, money, man hours, and credibility creating, let's just rush this thing out the door so fanboi gamerz will buy it.". So, I'm trying to think of what those explanations might be. Varric making stuff up is one such, although it doesn't (hopefully) cover every inconsistency.

It's not that I think the writers do not care.  They just have an absurdly large amount of information to draw upon and keep straight, both from their own lore and from the choices the players are given in Origins, Awakening, and now DAII.  There will always need to be an overarching direction in a series of games set so closely together in time.  There will also always be some inconsistencies in a fictional work.

But I don't want many of the choices the player makes or different plot points to be easily changed or dismissed by "Varric lied."    Yes, I know it's a framed narrative, but using that excuse too often would completely distance the player from the character and world.  The writers created this engaging world and offered us ways to impact it.  Now they need to follow through to the best of their abilities.

I totally agree. If they end up playing off the framed narrative, they have to do it in such a way that player choice is kept meaningful. Otherwise, what we're doing isn't participating in a story, or even reading a story... it's... reading gibberish, and that would definitely make for a poor game.

[Naliamegod]

The problem I have with the "flawed narrator" explanation is that the game does not play this card with Varric's story, except at a few obvious moments. We are lead to believe what he is saying is true, and are not offered an alternative. If they DO go that route, it comes off as a lazy retcon than an actual story device to make things interesting IMHO.

[baddogkelevra]

So what you're saying is...Varric is Keyser Soze?

I KNEW IT!

[Nightdragon8]

honestly what makes you all think you "killed" Liliana in he first place (death blow moves are just a randomly created event that can be modified) so she could have lived.

They could have done that and still may, I mean you can do alot with patches so


EDIT: IMO DAO was never menit to have a sequal really. They didn't plan out how they wanted to write the next game. With mass effect I think the story was already writen out from day one. I'm sure they modifed it so that it would fit and would allow all the posablities that are required to make it a good trilogy. While with DAO I don't think it was fully mente to be a full sequal. And in honestly only trew in people from DAO as an after thought. So that there would be a connection. Because really DA2 imo should have happened maybe at least 30-40 years later but it seems they wanted to keep there "r2d2/c3po" characters around Bodan and sandel. And in reality they may be the ones telling the "real" story.

Modifié par Nightdragon8, 15 juin 2011 - 08:36 .

[Maria Caliban]

If you use the word supposed, you don't need to put irony quotes around the word plot holes.

I don't think being the writer for a AAA game means you're a good writer as the majority of AAA games are poorly written.

An unreliable narrator is fine but you do have to work it more into the narrative if you expect it to cover elements the audience disagrees with. In Lolita, we have reason to believe that Humbert is disingenuous when he talks about a 14-year-old girl's sexual willingness or her seduction of an older man.

Yet when Humbert describes a swimming pool, we don't doubt that the pool existed or that it was the color of blue given or that the sun was hot that day.

A general 'Varric lies' is worthless. Everyone lies.

[Torax]

The thing to keep in mind at least even as a character, Varric had no reason to lie. Yes he was caught in a lie about his brother. But that was a story which to him was a personal matter that he was trying to avoid via comedy. He knew she wouldn't believe it but he was just stalling the retelling of the event. No matter which ending you choose for that quest, it ends with Varric having his brother either dead or having to be taken care of cause he's mentally unstable. Even the first little part of the game was just him trying to make the story seem quicker figuring she would even suspect what really happened with Flemeth's appearance and aid. Which she did.

Meanwhile Varric would be angry at how Cassandra sees the events because while he does boast in telling bar stories. He wouldn't lie about Hawke in the same fashion in regards to the actual events. Reason being the respect he has for Hawke be it as a Friend or Rival. He would lie about himself in a heart beat as a knee jerk reaction but not about someone he respects such as Hawke. Players would just want to find an excuse to complain or a new angle of attack on the writers for some part of the story they dislike. Yes the game was not perfect. But thinking "Varric is a liar" as your excuse to go after Gaider and crew? Grasping at straws.

Do we know exactly what he tells her while you're playing the game? You can assume he tells her everything you are doing. Yes this even would imply the parts where Varric is not there. Evidence you use to infer him knowing even those events? Your other companions can be seen visiting his room at the hanged man. You even get a scenes of him visiting both Fenris' mansion, Merrill's apartment & Aveline's office. So in the years he knew Hawke and the other companions? He could have been very well versed in all the major events of each year. With no reason to lie. Especially to a Seeker who's facts are most definitely wrong from the beginning and Varric probably knew that.

Modifié par Torax, 17 juin 2011 - 01:27 .

[Hurbster]

To be honest I was half expecting Hawke to appear from around the corner and talk to Varric after the Seekers left.

[Chiramu]

 Lying like this, www.youtube.com/watch

Though, that is an interesting point OP. 

Biggest wonder for me is if your warden was a Dalish, how did they manage to get from the Brecilian Forest in Ferelden to Sundermount and end up living there for 3 years; when Hawke just meets them one year after the Blight? The Eluvian is some sort of time travelling machine. 

[Huntress]

Not sure about how much he lied to the seeker but, I really hope he lied alot!!!
I don't like many of the things that happen to My hawke's... So much conflict in my mind of why x- blood-mage is living in high town without any troble from templars and yet hawke have to lose the sister.. it just doens't make any sense.

The game is not bad it just many things doesn't make sense..at all.