341 réponses à ce sujet

[DeathStride]

The Angry One wrote...

DeathStride wrote...

But then that really isn't an advantage Meredith makes use of. She uses a two-handed greatsword, a weapon that is as tall as herself! Just lifting that thing would take considerable effort for her, no matter how well-trained she is. So the Arishok's lack of 1 on 1 "fencing" ability really wouldn't be all that big a deal in a duel between the two.

In Act 2 she uses a longsword. Given the rules of the game it's odd she doesn't have a shield, not sure if that's a mistake or not.
Maybe she's meant to be a fencer?

O rly?

Then I take that back, she could certainly work some magic(no pun intended^_^) with a long sword if she played her cards right. But again, I maintain that the outcome of a battle between the two is not "obvious" or "unquestionably this-and-this" as many claim.

EDIT:
And because they're both such badasses is why it would be so damn cool to see them go toe-to-toe and why this thread and people's defenses of each outcome are so interesting- precisely because the outcome isn't set in stone.

Modifié par DeathStride, 04 avril 2011 - 02:19 .

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...
Actually, for an army that is the living embodyment of "culture sue", composed entirely of eight foot tall elite warriors, with technology hundreds of years ahead of everyone else, involving their mages into warfare more then anyone else, with perfect morale, and supposedly unlimited numbers of volunteering recruits - waging war for hundreds of years, and half conquering an island and a city, is a pretty pathetic result.

One of their weakness is lack of numbers.

I am not saying the Qunari are epic conquerors and are just awesome military genuises. But they are not as incompetent as some are making it look like. They can stand up with Thedas.

If they are as incompetent as some make out, the human leaders of Thedas have the mental capacity of goldfishes.

[Lithuasil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...
Actually, for an army that is the living embodyment of "culture sue", composed entirely of eight foot tall elite warriors, with technology hundreds of years ahead of everyone else, involving their mages into warfare more then anyone else, with perfect morale, and supposedly unlimited numbers of volunteering recruits - waging war for hundreds of years, and half conquering an island and a city, is a pretty pathetic result.

One of their weakness is lack of numbers.

I am not saying the Qunari are epic conquerors and are just awesome military genuises. But they are not as incompetent as some are making it look like.

Thousands and thousands of willfull converts, or lack of numbers - you may only pick one   

My point remains - the Conquistadores had gunpowder and it took them a few hundred men to bring down an entire culture. The only comprehensible reason why the qunari, despite their countless advantages don't rule the world yet, is military incompetence on "let's invade russia during winter, what could go wrong" level. And that picture matches what we see of them in gameplay, pretty well.

[Dark Specie]

Meredith with her Lyrium-lightsaber would win, I think.

Pity that there's no DA2 editor, or I'm sure that someone'd set up those two for combat, record it and put it on Youtube...

[Herr Uhl]

Lithuasil wrote...

Thousands and thousands of willfull converts, or lack of numbers - you may only pick one   

Do you think that they'd put converts into their army? The next generation of them, maybe, but not first generation.

[Lithuasil]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Thousands and thousands of willfull converts, or lack of numbers - you may only pick one   

Do you think that they'd put converts into their army? The next generation of them, maybe, but not first generation.

Except that they have no problem letting untrained converts fight for them in Kirkwall.

[Herr Uhl]

Lithuasil wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Do you think that they'd put converts into their army? The next generation of them, maybe, but not first generation.

Except that they have no problem letting untrained converts fight for them in Kirkwall.

What untrained converts?

[Cavalier753]

Basically, from what I've read from this, the pro Arishok and pro Meredith are both making good arguments. Except angry one. He/she just dismisses facts and other opinions and believes his/her own opinions are actual facts. Which isn't true.

[Lithuasil]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Do you think that they'd put converts into their army? The next generation of them, maybe, but not first generation.

Except that they have no problem letting untrained converts fight for them in Kirkwall.

What untrained converts?

The at least thirty converted elves they send against you in lowtown, fighting by their new slavers  Comrades side?

[The Angry One]

QuintusVolcae wrote...

Basically, from what I've read from this, the pro Arishok and pro Meredith are both making good arguments. Except angry one. He/she just dismisses facts and other opinions and believes his/her own opinions are actual facts. Which isn't true.

Hey, keep attempting to troll me. It's amusing.

[Mr.House]

QuintusVolcae wrote...

Basically, from what I've read from this, the pro Arishok and pro Meredith are both making good arguments. Except angry one. He/she just dismisses facts and other opinions and believes his/her own opinions are actual facts. Which isn't true.

If you want to troll her, at least try to do it good because this post just made me cringe.

[Cavalier753]

Yep. I'm a troll. Totally. It's not like I've contributed at all to this argument and just sit here, insulting everyone who dosen't agree with me. I'm also SOOO not using sarcasm.

[Herr Uhl]

Lithuasil wrote...

The at least thirty converted elves they send against you in lowtown, fighting by their new slavers  Comrades side?

Hmm, people that aren't soldiers are allowed to fight back. Him sending them against enemies in the place of his soldiers would be a huge sign of desperation.

They may enter the fray on their own behalf though. Which might be why they pulled back during the marches and so few Qunari alledgedly died.

[Lithuasil]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

The at least thirty converted elves they send against you in lowtown, fighting by their new slavers  Comrades side?

Hmm, people that aren't soldiers are allowed to fight back. Him sending them against enemies in the place of his soldiers would be a huge sign of desperation.

They may enter the fray on their own behalf though. Which might be why they pulled back during the marches and so few Qunari alledgedly died.

Given they have set up a perimeter at the bottom of a staircase, and have their own sten with them, this is most likely a military unit, not someone just fighting back (why would civilians leave the compound in the first place). In any case, this is pretty much prove the Qunari use even the recently converted in their armed forces. Making either the "we're outnumbered" or the "everybody wants to convert to us" void.

Also given the Qunari have a track record of never keeping their word ever, and an even bigger record for flatout denial (there's no rogue qunari in bagdad), I'm also reluctant to take the whole "we pulled back unscathed to save civilians" for face value.

[ColdEnd]

Really, the Arishok and Meredith are exactly the same character.

Both are tough, unyeilding, unforgiving, and completely amoral when it comes to actually using their power. Meredith hides behind the chantry, yet violates the accepted dogma that allowed mage circles to exist for hundreds of years. The Arishok, hides behind the commands of the Qun and exploits it's dictates by allowing the formula for a poison gas to be "stolen" from his camp.

In the end, both decide to conquer Kirkwall and turn it into their own fiefdom.

The only difference is that Meredith...
- has the lyrium-lightsaber (love that name)
- and also, she has power-ranger armor & mega zords. If she had had enough time, eventiually all of those random golems would have formed together into and ultra-mega-zord.

[Herr Uhl]

Lithuasil wrote...

Given they have set up a perimeter at the bottom of a staircase, and have their own sten with them, this is most likely a military unit, not someone just fighting back (why would civilians leave the compound in the first place). In any case, this is pretty much prove the Qunari use even the recently converted in their armed forces. Making either the "we're outnumbered" or the "everybody wants to convert to us" void.

Also given the Qunari have a track record of never keeping their word ever, and an even bigger record for flatout denial (there's no rogue qunari in bagdad), I'm also reluctant to take the whole "we pulled back unscathed to save civilians" for face value.

For the first part, I don't remember that encounter, but I doubt that the developers put enough thought into battle formations for them to make sense lore-wise.

As to the second part, wasn't that codex entry written by a chantry scholar?

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 04 avril 2011 - 02:41 .

[Lithuasil]

Herr Uhl wrote...
For the first part, I don't remember that encounter, but I doubt that the developers put enough thought into battle formations for them to make sense lore-wise.

As to the second part, wasn't that codex entry written by a chantry scholar?

If we're not accepting the game as a valid source, then what is - effectively, a single elf convert outside the compound is enough to prove that they use converts as soldiers.

And given the war was 300 years ago, where would said scholar get his information from? (After all, Gaider posted several times now, that codex entries aren't absolute truth, but pow of that person)

[sheppard7]

Lithuasil wrote...

sheppard7 wrote...

If Meredith is the alpha and omega in sword play in your mind, then you must not have ever been yourself.

And all of you have been saying how the 'Shok is more clumsy brawler which is why I pulled up boxing. I guess that went over you.

What I've been saying is, someone who is stupid enough to equip himself the way the Arishok does 
a) Doesn't know **** about swordplay
Is only remotely effective against a battle line
c) will get utterly destroyed in a fair duel, by any even remotely competent swordsman, as long as said swordsman manages to keep his nerves.

Meredith doesn't need to be an exceptional fencer. She needs to know the basic lessons, and not get paralyzed by fear at the sight of angry qunari (the likes of which she's been slaying for an hour).

As was others also slaying. So that means she's just another one to get in line of those who beat down Qunari pawns. Nothing special. She wasn't fighting alone like you're making it out you believe she was.

Modifié par sheppard7, 04 avril 2011 - 03:20 .

[Lithuasil]

sheppard7 wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

sheppard7 wrote...

If Meredith is the alpha and omega in sword play in your mind, then you must not have ever been yourself.

And all of you have been saying how the 'Shok is more clumsy brawler which is why I pulled up boxing. I guess that went over you.

What I've been saying is, someone who is stupid enough to equip himself the way the Arishok does 
a) Doesn't know **** about swordplay
Is only remotely effective against a battle line
c) will get utterly destroyed in a fair duel, by any even remotely competent swordsman, as long as said swordsman manages to keep his nerves.

Meredith doesn't need to be an exceptional fencer. She needs to know the basic lessons, and not get paralyzed by fear at the sight of angry qunari (the likes of which she's been slaying for an hour).

As was others also slaying. So that means she's just another one to get in line of those who beat down Qunari pawns. Nothing special. She wasn't fighting alone like you're making it out you believe she was.

You realize that my point is, any of the templars fighting a long meredith could've butchered the arishok in a 1v1 as well?

[sheppard7]

Lithuasil wrote...

sheppard7 wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

sheppard7 wrote...

If Meredith is the alpha and omega in sword play in your mind, then you must not have ever been yourself.

And all of you have been saying how the 'Shok is more clumsy brawler which is why I pulled up boxing. I guess that went over you.

What I've been saying is, someone who is stupid enough to equip himself the way the Arishok does 
a) Doesn't know **** about swordplay
Is only remotely effective against a battle line
c) will get utterly destroyed in a fair duel, by any even remotely competent swordsman, as long as said swordsman manages to keep his nerves.

Meredith doesn't need to be an exceptional fencer. She needs to know the basic lessons, and not get paralyzed by fear at the sight of angry qunari (the likes of which she's been slaying for an hour).

As was others also slaying. So that means she's just another one to get in line of those who beat down Qunari pawns. Nothing special. She wasn't fighting alone like you're making it out you believe she was.

You realize that my point is, any of the templars fighting a long meredith could've butchered the arishok in a 1v1 as well?

Then why was a group of them taking so long if they were soooooooo much greater? They should have done it before Hawke even got there.


Edit: If they are such a Delta Force, then them taking that long speaks poorly of their leadership.

Modifié par sheppard7, 04 avril 2011 - 03:34 .

[Lithuasil]

sheppard7 wrote...

Then why was a group of them taking so long if they were soooooooo much greater?

Because there's (at this point) a dozen templars and a single mage outside the keep. You realize the Arishok brought an entire army, yes? And that no one of that army is alive, by the time Meredith comes waltzing into the keep herself? The Arishok just didn't last long enough for her to interfere.

[sheppard7]

Lithuasil wrote...

sheppard7 wrote...

Then why was a group of them taking so long if they were soooooooo much greater?

Because there's (at this point) a dozen templars and a single mage outside the keep. You realize the Arishok brought an entire army, yes? And that no one of that army is alive, by the time Meredith comes waltzing into the keep herself? The Arishok just didn't last long enough for her to interfere.

Do you think there were thousands of Qunari in Kirkwall? You're really giving that impression of that's how you believe Meredith fought thousands with this hyping up.

[Lithuasil]

sheppard7 wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

sheppard7 wrote...

Then why was a group of them taking so long if they were soooooooo much greater?

Because there's (at this point) a dozen templars and a single mage outside the keep. You realize the Arishok brought an entire army, yes? And that no one of that army is alive, by the time Meredith comes waltzing into the keep herself? The Arishok just didn't last long enough for her to interfere.

Do you think there were thousands of Qunari in Kirkwall? You're really giving that impression of that's how you believe Meredith fought thousands with this hyping up.

There were several hundred in Kirkwall, so the codex says. And depending on how you deal with the Arishok, they're all dead, but the battle is in any case over, so they must've died beforehand. Not thousands, but a few dozen definitely.

[sheppard7]

Lithuasil wrote...

sheppard7 wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

sheppard7 wrote...

Then why was a group of them taking so long if they were soooooooo much greater?

Because there's (at this point) a dozen templars and a single mage outside the keep. You realize the Arishok brought an entire army, yes? And that no one of that army is alive, by the time Meredith comes waltzing into the keep herself? The Arishok just didn't last long enough for her to interfere.

Do you think there were thousands of Qunari in Kirkwall? You're really giving that impression of that's how you believe Meredith fought thousands with this hyping up.

There were several hundred in Kirkwall, so the codex says. And depending on how you deal with the Arishok, they're all dead, but the battle is in any case over, so they must've died beforehand. Not thousands, but a few dozen definitely.

And how many templars under her command at the start of the battle?

[Rifneno]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
As for the Qunari victories in the past and not being able to "scratch" their armies. I'm crediting their cannons.

The Ming dynasty had cannons and they got owned by the Qing.

Technology doesn't win wars. It's how it's applied. It requires tactical and strategic understanding.

LOL.  No.  Do you know why you never heard of a big air battle in Iraq or Afghanistan?  Because fighting our soldiers on foot makes you the underdog.  Fighting our air superiority fighters in the air with the WWII leftovers they had?  That's not a fight.  That is just plain suicide.  There's a reason that even during a budget crisis people wanted to keep spending $150,000,000 per F-22.  They don't give you an advantage that requires skill, they're an "I win" button.

Gunpowder is not as much of an advantage as a stealth plane that can accelerate fast enough to kill the pilot, armed with highly accurate missiles... but it's pretty close.  If you want to see how bows and arrows work against gunpowder, go read some of the tragic history of American Indians.  I'm not saying the settlers were incompetent or ethical (although trading blankets laced with small pox isn't that far from poison gas) but there's a reason history remembers that conflict as it does despite winners writing history.  Because the poor guys didn't have a fighting chance.

In summary, I agree with the notion that Qunari are low-foreheaded troglodytes that couldn't find their way out of a three-sided fence.  The only reason they aren't completely annihilated is their much more advanced warfare technology.