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[DeathStride]

@Rifneno: Check out the following quotes from codes entries-

“Tales of the Destruction of Thedas," Part 1, by Brother Genitivi tells us...
The defenders of those lands were hardly a match for qunari discipline and technology. One shot of the mighty cannons, the likes of which our ancestors of the time had never seen before, brought troops to their knees. Qunari warriors in glittering steel armor carved through the defenders with ease. History calls this the First Qunari War, but it was mostly a one-sided bloodbath, with the qunari advancing far into Tevinter within ten years.

They did have an advantage at first. Not so much later.

“Tales of the Destruction of Thedas," Part 3, by Brother Genitivi tells us...
The greatest advantage that the Chantry-led forces had against the qunari was, in fact, the Circle of Magi. For all their technology, the qunari appeared to harbor a great hatred for all things magical. They possessed mages, but these were little better than animals kept on leashes… and none of the qunari mages possessed anywhere near the skill that the Circle’s mages had. Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and balls of fire and it proved effective indeed.

No more upper hand. Circle magic neutralized the explosive weapons in terms of any side having an advantage.

Finally-

“Tales of the Destruction of Thedas," Part 3, by Brother Genitivi tells us...
For all the force that the qunari armies had brought to bear on the north, they also lacked the sheer numbers of the humans.

This advantage of numbers was never lost. The nations of Thedas(except for Tevinter) made peace with the Qunari but Tevinter fields slave armies- armies that are cheap to assemble and extremely easy to replace. So even though the Qunari still fight "only" the Tevinter Imperium, their cannons/explosives are neutralized by the obvious magic from the Tevinter magisters and they are fighting an uphill battle against an endless army of slaves that simply get replaced when their numbers decrease. THAT is the reason why the battle still continues.

Modifié par DeathStride, 04 avril 2011 - 07:42 .

[lltoon]

The Arishok had reach, but meredith had flexibility.

[DeathStride]

lltoon wrote...
The Arishok had reach, but meredith had flexibility.

Yowsa.

[Porenferser]

Considering all the arguments that were given here:
I guess one single, hard, well placed hit from the Arishok would be enough to decapitate or whatever Meredith.

But if she wouldn't let him hit herself and if she acts very prudent, she might win.

PS: Please, stop this senseless flaming to each other, thats just childish.

[KJandrew]

I'm going to go with this: If it was a duel the Meridith wins
If they meet in battle then Arishok wins

[NaclynE]

I say Arishock. Why I always liked Sten.

"And if I die?"~Hawke
"You die."~Arishock

[Rifneno]

lltoon wrote...

The Arishok had reach, but meredith had flexibility.

Well played, sir.

Porenferser wrote...

Considering all the arguments that were given here:
I guess one single, hard, well placed hit from the Arishok would be enough to decapitate or whatever Meredith.

But if she wouldn't let him hit herself and if she acts very prudent, she might win.

You're forgetting how she impaled that Qunari mage and then decapitated him.  Now I know that the Arishok-sided folk here and going to say "she's made to fight mages!" but that's not my point.  A qunari body doesn't suddenly become jello if they're a mage and the enemy is a templar.  Their bodies are as big and hard regardless, and we see that Meredith can strike a definitive deathblow against a qunari without the lyrium doucheblade.  Yes, the Arishok could decapitate Meredith with one well played hit.  But she can do the same to him.

[sheppard7]

Rifneno wrote...

lltoon wrote...

The Arishok had reach, but meredith had flexibility.

Well played, sir.

Porenferser wrote...

Considering all the arguments that were given here:
I guess one single, hard, well placed hit from the Arishok would be enough to decapitate or whatever Meredith.

But if she wouldn't let him hit herself and if she acts very prudent, she might win.

You're forgetting how she impaled that Qunari mage and then decapitated him.  Now I know that the Arishok-sided folk here and going to say "she's made to fight mages!" but that's not my point.  A qunari body doesn't suddenly become jello if they're a mage and the enemy is a templar.  Their bodies are as big and hard regardless, and we see that Meredith can strike a definitive deathblow against a qunari without the lyrium doucheblade.  Yes, the Arishok could decapitate Meredith with one well played hit.  But she can do the same to him.

In your game, was that the ONLY Qunari mage you saw fight? Mine must be bugged then. Bioware, I need a patch to the last patch. I had my Hawke kill a few of those things and everyone here acts like there was only one. My game is broken.

Hawke took out more than one. Even companions like the dog laid one down while I didn't see one that did that explosive move that knocks back.

Modifié par sheppard7, 04 avril 2011 - 12:48 .

[Porenferser]

Rifneno wrote...

lltoon wrote...

The Arishok had reach, but meredith had flexibility.

Well played, sir.

Porenferser wrote...

Considering all the arguments that were given here:
I guess one single, hard, well placed hit from the Arishok would be enough to decapitate or whatever Meredith.

But if she wouldn't let him hit herself and if she acts very prudent, she might win.

You're forgetting how she impaled that Qunari mage and then decapitated him.  Now I know that the Arishok-sided folk here and going to say "she's made to fight mages!" but that's not my point.  A qunari body doesn't suddenly become jello if they're a mage and the enemy is a templar.  Their bodies are as big and hard regardless, and we see that Meredith can strike a definitive deathblow against a qunari without the lyrium doucheblade.  Yes, the Arishok could decapitate Meredith with one well played hit.  But she can do the same to him.

No I don't forgot that.
But you, obviously.

The mage was distracted, she first pulled her sword into his back, then he kneed, and then she decapitated him.

I don't think she (as a Warrior) would have the oppertunity to come behind him.
And she is too small to decapitate him while he stands:lol:

Modifié par Porenferser, 04 avril 2011 - 01:00 .

[sheppard7]

Porenferser wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

lltoon wrote...

The Arishok had reach, but meredith had flexibility.

Well played, sir.

Porenferser wrote...

Considering all the arguments that were given here:
I guess one single, hard, well placed hit from the Arishok would be enough to decapitate or whatever Meredith.

But if she wouldn't let him hit herself and if she acts very prudent, she might win.

You're forgetting how she impaled that Qunari mage and then decapitated him.  Now I know that the Arishok-sided folk here and going to say "she's made to fight mages!" but that's not my point.  A qunari body doesn't suddenly become jello if they're a mage and the enemy is a templar.  Their bodies are as big and hard regardless, and we see that Meredith can strike a definitive deathblow against a qunari without the lyrium doucheblade.  Yes, the Arishok could decapitate Meredith with one well played hit.  But she can do the same to him.

No I don't forgot that.
But you, obviously.

The mage was distracted, she first pulled her sword into his back, then he kneed, and then she decapitated him.

I don't think she (as a Warrior) would have the oppertunity to come behind him.
And she is too small to decapitate him while he stands:lol:

My dog took out one of those face-to-face too. So those things she had to do from behind are overrated.

[Lithuasil]

DeathStride wrote...
This advantage of numbers was never lost. The nations of Thedas(except for Tevinter) made peace with the Qunari but Tevinter fields slave armies- armies that are cheap to assemble and extremely easy to replace. So even though the Qunari still fight "only" the Tevinter Imperium, their cannons/explosives are neutralized by the obvious magic from the Tevinter magisters and they are fighting an uphill battle against an endless army of slaves that simply get replaced when their numbers decrease. THAT is the reason why the battle still continues.

We already had this - we have proof, that the Qunari have no qualms sending willing converts into certain death  battle, if the qun demands it (i.e if they feel like it). So either the "disadvantage of numbers" is a sham, or the whole "but there were thousands of willing converts" that gets pulled in each of these discussions breaks apart into "there were a few hundred willing fools, and lots of peasants threatened and brainwashed"

[Rifneno]

sheppard7 wrote...

In your game, was that the ONLY Qunari mage you saw fight? Mine must be bugged then. Bioware, I need a patch to the last patch. I had my Hawke kill a few of those things and everyone here acts like there was only one. My game is broken.

Hawke took out more than one. Even companions like the dog laid one down while I didn't see one that did that explosive move that knocks back.

....  Does this forum have an ignore function?

Porenferser wrote...

No I don't forgot that.
But you, obviously.

The mage was distracted, she first pulled her sword into his back, then he kneed, and then she decapitated him.

I don't think she (as a Warrior) would have the oppertunity to come behind him.
And she is too small to decapitate him while he stands:lol:

Don't act like I said "LAWL she would plow him like that one mage," it was pretty clear I was bringing it up as proof that the "Arishok can kill her in one good blow" was not an advantage because they both could kill the other with one good blow.

BTW, you might notice that they're fighting around stairs.  It wouldn't be that hard for her to get the knucklebleeder in a position where his height isn't too much for a decapitation.

Now that I think about it, it'd be easy for her to use the enviorment to her advantage.  Get the battle onto the top level, then let Tardo The Magnificent do his patented ram charge.  He goes over the railing, and... well, do you remember what happened to Aeris?

[sheppard7]

Rifneno wrote...

sheppard7 wrote...

In your game, was that the ONLY Qunari mage you saw fight? Mine must be bugged then. Bioware, I need a patch to the last patch. I had my Hawke kill a few of those things and everyone here acts like there was only one. My game is broken.

Hawke took out more than one. Even companions like the dog laid one down while I didn't see one that did that explosive move that knocks back.

....  Does this forum have an ignore function?

Porenferser wrote...

No I don't forgot that.
But you, obviously.

The mage was distracted, she first pulled her sword into his back, then he kneed, and then she decapitated him.

I don't think she (as a Warrior) would have the oppertunity to come behind him.
And she is too small to decapitate him while he stands:lol:

Don't act like I said "LAWL she would plow him like that one mage," it was pretty clear I was bringing it up as proof that the "Arishok can kill her in one good blow" was not an advantage because they both could kill the other with one good blow.

BTW, you might notice that they're fighting around stairs.  It wouldn't be that hard for her to get the knucklebleeder in a position where his height isn't too much for a decapitation.

Now that I think about it, it'd be easy for her to use the enviorment to her advantage.  Get the battle onto the top level, then let Tardo The Magnificent do his patented ram charge.  He goes over the railing, and... well, do you remember what happened to Aeris?

You're mad because my DOG took out one of those so-called big, bad mages?

And those mages do bow down to the 'Shok.

Modifié par sheppard7, 04 avril 2011 - 04:48 .

[DeathStride]

Lithuasil wrote...

DeathStride wrote...
This advantage of numbers was never lost. The nations of Thedas(except for Tevinter) made peace with the Qunari but Tevinter fields slave armies- armies that are cheap to assemble and extremely easy to replace. So even though the Qunari still fight "only" the Tevinter Imperium, their cannons/explosives are neutralized by the obvious magic from the Tevinter magisters and they are fighting an uphill battle against an endless army of slaves that simply get replaced when their numbers decrease. THAT is the reason why the battle still continues.

We already had this - we have proof, that the Qunari have no qualms sending willing converts into certain death  battle, if the qun demands it (i.e if they feel like it). So either the "disadvantage of numbers" is a sham, or the whole "but there were thousands of willing converts" that gets pulled in each of these discussions breaks apart into "there were a few hundred willing fools, and lots of peasants threatened and brainwashed"

Wait, I'm not sure if you're referring to the Kirkwall city battle or the Thedas continental battle at this point. The reason I ask is because you were discussing the same numbers issue with Sheppard7 earlier and in that case you two were arguing about Kirkwall Qunari/Templar numbers.

Assuming that you are in fact referring to the large-scale battle between Tevinter and Par Vollen, I never denied that there were converts, primarily in Rivain and I agree that their numbers are easily in the thousands. Now assuming that every single one of those were placed in the warrior caste is a mistake knowing what we know of the various castes based on the the type of function each caste performs; a few hundred would probably go to be warriors, assuming even that many were deemed fit for the task.

Regardless, even accounting for that I don't doubt the Qunari got additions to their army that numbered in the thousands. However, the slave armies probably number in the hundreds of thousands and their members are continuously being replaced or increased. The vast majority of the converts to the Qun happened in the First Qunari War when they took control of Rivain- saying that in the current time period anything  more than a hundred or two per year convert to the Qun in all of Thedas would be pure exaggeration. Saying that thousands of slaves are captured and added to the Tevinter army per year however really isn't. So yeah, like I said- advantage of numbers.

Modifié par DeathStride, 04 avril 2011 - 07:11 .

[Lithuasil]

DeathStride wrote...
snip

I'm referring to two different, seperate arguments, that are brought up in all these discussions:

a) The Qunari were only pushed back 300 years ago, because they lacked numbers

When the Qunari invade, there's lots of people willfully embracing the qun

Now, since during the battle for Kirkwall, we find solid proof, that the Qunari use those who are stupid enough to embrace the qun of their own free will, rather then under threats and indoctrination, as cannonfodder, those two arguments can no longer coexist. Because either, the number of the willful converts is insignificant (leaving the qunari outnumbered), or the qunari had the numbers, and were simply beaten in battle. You can't be outnumbered and have a significant stream of willing recruits, at the same time.

(Which is of course not even touching the issue, that fighting slave armies, the qunari with their countless advantages, would need to be outnumbered like a thousand to one, for that argument to hold up. Given what we see of the qunari, military incompetence during, and denial after the war, are much, much more likely.)

Modifié par Lithuasil, 04 avril 2011 - 07:26 .

[sonofalich]

Sare--err Meredith would win.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Torax wrote...

One boss is designed to be fought 1 on 1. The other is designed for a fight with ALL your companions and other npcs helping. Why bother comparing?

edited to all caps the ALL because it's even the ones not in your party helping.

i don't think gameplay challenge is a perfect indicator of how powerful we should speculate enemies to be lore-wise. 

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 04 avril 2011 - 07:31 .

[DeathStride]

Lithuasil wrote...
I'm referring to two different, seperate arguments, that are brought up in all these discussions:

a) The Qunari were only pushed back 300 years ago, because they lacked numbers

When the Qunari invade, there's lots of people willfully embracing the qun

Now, since during the battle for Kirkwall, we find solid proof, that the Qunari use those who are stupid enough to embrace the qun of their own free will, rather then under threats and indoctrination, as cannonfodder, those two arguments can no longer coexist. Because either, the number of the willful converts is insignificant (leaving the qunari outnumbered), or the qunari had the numbers, and were simply beaten in battle. You can't be outnumbered and have a significant stream of willing recruits, at the same time.

Ah, ok. I'm with you on most of what you said there. Number of willing converts = relatively few in lands Qunari haven't conquered. That number tends to increase in lands under their rule- I figure that's simply becasue people get exposed to the non "invading army" side of the philosophy when they live side-by-side with them.

Yeah I don't agree with those who say the Qunari have numerous converts all the time as I mentioned in my original Qunari army vs. Thedas army post. I do support the shortage of numbers delio though. Hopefully no contradictions there?


EDIT: I'd like to add that I don't think shortage of numbers was the only reason the Qunari were pushed back, it's probably a more complex situation than a simple numbers game. So I also agree with your skepticism of that claim.

Modifié par DeathStride, 04 avril 2011 - 07:35 .

[JabbaDaHutt30]

sheppard7 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

sheppard7 wrote...

In your game, was that the ONLY Qunari mage you saw fight? Mine must be bugged then. Bioware, I need a patch to the last patch. I had my Hawke kill a few of those things and everyone here acts like there was only one. My game is broken.

Hawke took out more than one. Even companions like the dog laid one down while I didn't see one that did that explosive move that knocks back.

....  Does this forum have an ignore function?

Porenferser wrote...

No I don't forgot that.
But you, obviously.

The mage was distracted, she first pulled her sword into his back, then he kneed, and then she decapitated him.

I don't think she (as a Warrior) would have the oppertunity to come behind him.
And she is too small to decapitate him while he stands:lol:

Don't act like I said "LAWL she would plow him like that one mage," it was pretty clear I was bringing it up as proof that the "Arishok can kill her in one good blow" was not an advantage because they both could kill the other with one good blow.

BTW, you might notice that they're fighting around stairs.  It wouldn't be that hard for her to get the knucklebleeder in a position where his height isn't too much for a decapitation.

Now that I think about it, it'd be easy for her to use the enviorment to her advantage.  Get the battle onto the top level, then let Tardo The Magnificent do his patented ram charge.  He goes over the railing, and... well, do you remember what happened to Aeris?

You're mad because my DOG took out one of those so-called big, bad mages?

And those mages do bow down to the 'Shok.

If Arl Eamon would have let my Mabari fight Loghain at the Landsmeet, he could probably pawn him too gameplay-wise 1v1.

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 04 avril 2011 - 07:33 .

[Lithuasil]

DeathStride wrote...
Ah, ok. I'm with you on most of what you said there. Number of willing converts = relatively few in lands Qunari haven't conquered. That number tends to increase in lands under their rule- I figure that's simply becasue people get exposed to the non "invading army" side of the philosophy when they live side-by-side with them.

Yeah I don't agree with those who say the Qunari have numerous converts all the time as I mentioned in my original Qunari army vs. Thedas army post. I do support the shortage of numbers delio though. Hopefully no contradictions there?


EDIT: I'd like to add that I don't think shortage of numbers was the only reason the Qunari were pushed back, it's probably a more complex situation than a simple numbers game. So I also agree with your skepticism of that claim.

That I can agree with   

Imho, based on everything we see of the Qunari (Kirkwall / the operation that Sten was part of) the primary reason is a lack of communication, as a direct result of an overly strict caste system. We have theoretically quite capable Soldiers (Soldiers, not fencers, there's a difference), and capable scholars, coming up with lots of stuff the rest of thedas can only dream of. But since both are restricted to their assigned role, and for all we know, have no business cooperating (not in the field, anyway - remember, the arishoks expedition consisted only of warriors), the armies are led by brawlers, not by strategists (and the weaponry is likely developed by scholars, without anyone who ever drew blood, near).
In other words, the (flawed) concept of the Qun itself, is what keeping the guys back here. 
(I mean, they fight the tevinter in a stalemate, for years now - a country that relies on slave armies, the single easiest opponent, an army like the Qunari could hope for)

[Porenferser]

Fenris says that the Qunari never used their full strengt, and if they wanted to, they could crush Tevinter.

PS: Aren't we a bit away from the original Topic right now?

[The Angry One]

Porenferser wrote...

Fenris says that the Qunari never used their full strengt, and if they wanted to, they could crush Tevinter.

PS: Aren't we a bit away from the original Topic right now?

Fenris also says that the Lyrium markings were forced on him.

[Porenferser]

The Angry One wrote...

Porenferser wrote...

Fenris says that the Qunari never used their full strengt, and if they wanted to, they could crush Tevinter.

PS: Aren't we a bit away from the original Topic right now?

Fenris also says that the Lyrium markings were forced on him.

What a great argument.

Why should he lie about that?

[The Angry One]

Porenferser wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Porenferser wrote...

Fenris says that the Qunari never used their full strengt, and if they wanted to, they could crush Tevinter.

PS: Aren't we a bit away from the original Topic right now?

Fenris also says that the Lyrium markings were forced on him.

What a great argument.

Why should he lie about that?

He's not lying about either. He's just incredibly biased.
He probably goes to bed every night dreaming about Minrathous in flames as the Magisters are collared and have their lips sewn shut.