341 réponses à ce sujet

[Lithuasil]

Herr Uhl wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Perhaps the Qunari don't want to display too much force as that might make all Thedas nations band up to bail Tevinter and they are not yet ready for that.

I don't buy the idea that the Qunari can just walk over Tevinter and take it without breaking a sweat. But if it came down to the two fully unleashing their power, without outside interference, I think the Qunari would win.

Given that the rest of Thedas has failed doing the same, and that Tevinter and the rest of Thedas had to combine forces to drive them back I think that would be a fair assesment.

Thedas united is stronger than the Qunari, but the Qunari aren't far behind. It would make for the most interesting power balance at least.

That was three hundred years ago. Since then, the Qunari have been struggling to get a hold of that one Island, where they're fighting the very easiest foe they can hope to face in all of thedas. Either the Qun demands constant loss of lives for no apparent reason, or the Qunari military is a lot less competent then you would so like to believe.

[Porenferser]

Well, the Qunari have mages too.

Brainless, yes, but much more powerfull then an average elven/human-mage (as far as one could judge)

[The Angry One]

Porenferser wrote...

Well, the Qunari have mages too.

Brainless, yes, but much more powerfull then an average elven/human-mage (as far as one could judge)

Gameplay.
In lore, Saarebas are far less powerful.
Plus even in gameplay Saarebas are predictable, all they do is lightning explosions.

[Porenferser]

The Angry One wrote...

Porenferser wrote...

Well, the Qunari have mages too.

Brainless, yes, but much more powerfull then an average elven/human-mage (as far as one could judge)

Gameplay.
In lore, Saarebas are far less powerful.

Where does it say that?
Codex?
If yes, my mistake.

In the cutscenes they were also pretty powerfull.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lithuasil wrote...
That was three hundred years ago. Since then, the Qunari have been struggling to get a hold of that one Island, where they're fighting the very easiest foe they can hope to face in all of thedas. Either the Qun demands constant loss of lives for no apparent reason, or the Qunari military is a lot less competent then you would so like to believe.

Tevinter is not an easy foe at all.

And like I said, the Qunari could just be waiting, not wanting to show all of their power as that might attract unwanted attention.

We don't have enough info to know for sure what the Qunari are doing. If what Fenris says is correct, they are having a massive military build up.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Porenferser wrote...
Where does it say that?
Codex?
If yes, my mistake.

In the cutscenes they were also pretty powerfull.

""The greatest advantage that the Chantry-led forces had against the qunari was, in fact, the Circle of Magi. For all their technology, the qunari appeared to harbor a great hatred for all things magical. They possessed mages, but these were little better than animals kept on leashes… and none of the qunari mages possessed anywhere near the skill that the Circle’s mages had. Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and balls of fire and it proved effective indeed."

- an excerpt from “Tales of the Destruction of Thedas” by Brother Genitivi, Chantry Scholar"

Now keep in mind that was 300 years ago. It could be that the Qunari became a bit more flexible when it comes to mages and start to train them more. Apparently in the end phase, they used mages to devastating effect to conquer kirkwall.

And that cutscene was only there to make Meredith show up and save you.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 avril 2011 - 08:33 .

[Lithuasil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
That's based on a guide that are not the best source on lore. It's confusing and I prefer if a dev, like Mary Kirby, can confirm how an Arishok is promoted exactly and on what basis.

A game guide is suspect or weak evidence at best, for now.

I haven't read that guide. What I'm saying is the Qun is a system that puts people in fixed roles, and that the Arishok acts exactly like a warrior put in a role that far extends beyond that of a mere warrior.

So I don't think the Qunari have that many advantages. They certainly had the advantage early on. But when the war became protracted and when mages were brought on the field, I don't think the Qunari had the advantage.

The Qunari have every possible advantage on Seheron. For an army like the Qunari, there is no easier foe imaginable, then a slave army, led by magisters who'll hardly risk their own hide. And yet, for decades, the Qunari have failed to conquer that one island. I completely fail to see, how such an army poses a thread to the entirety of Thedas. Especially, when the only evidence for that theory, is that said army got beaten up by an exalted march three hundred years ago, and since then claims "Oh, we just pulled back because... oh, look, a bird!"

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lithuasil wrote...
I haven't read that guide. What I'm saying is the Qun is a system that puts people in fixed roles, and that the Arishok acts exactly like a warrior put in a role that far extends beyond that of a mere warrior.

We don't know how promotion functions exactly. It may be entirely based on physical strength. It may also be be based on tactical aptitude. I don't feel we have enough info to know for sure exactly how promotiosn function.

And most great generals have a military background anyhow. They don't necessarily start as soldiers, but they have military experience. People like Loghain, farmers turned generals, are a rarity.

The Qunari have every possible advantage on Seheron. For an army like the Qunari, there is no easier foe imaginable, then a slave army, led by magisters who'll hardly risk their own hide. And yet, for decades, the Qunari have failed to conquer that one island. I completely fail to see, how such an army poses a thread to the entirety of Thedas. Especially, when the only evidence for that theory, is that said army got beaten up by an exalted march three hundred years ago, and since then claims "Oh, we just pulled back because... oh, look, a bird!"

Again, we don't know what the Qunari are doing. It is entirely possible that they just don't want to show too much force, as that might prompt all others to help Tevinter, which they did in the past. So they are content as of now to prepare and build up their military, as they are not yet ready to face all of Thedas combined.

We are arguing from a lack of info and that is why any meaningful discussion on the subject is just going to be very limited. We do not know what the Qunari are thinking and that they even want to control Seheron fully now.

And it was 3 Exalted marches. The 2nd one was a complete failure.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 avril 2011 - 08:42 .

[Lithuasil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Again, we don't know what the Qunari are doing. It is entirely possible that they just don't want to show too much force, as that might prompt all others to help Tevinter, which they did in the past. So they are content as of now to prepare and build up their military, as they are not yet ready to face all of Thedas combined. 

I fail to see how this would work, unless the Qunari have avoided combat completely for the past decades (which they haven't, ask fenris). What we hear of is a bloody struggle resulting in a stalemate. Unless the qunari military presence on Seheron results in them being outnumbered in "300" style proportions (which would shed new light on the whole "we protect those of the qun" business), there must have been battles that the qunari didn't win flawlessly. And that alone, given who's fighting whom here, would be a pretty much unprecedented military failure.
From a military whose operations (to the knowledge of the players) so far where "send a small group to gather information by fighting darkspawn hordes" and "attack a neutral city for no reason at all, and get killed". At least for those that saved Loghain (meaning there's at least one decent strategist in thedas) I can't really see such an army posing much of a threat.

[The Angry One]

The thing is, the Qunari have settlements on Seheron. Sten implies major settlements.
Why share an island where you have a substantial civilian population with your enemy if you don't have to?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lithuasil wrote...
I fail to see how this would work, unless the Qunari have avoided combat completely for the past decades (which they haven't, ask fenris).

They could hold back and not unleash their full military capacity.

Why? Because again, unleashing their full military capacity now could prompt all of Thedas to band up and join Tevinter at worse. Or have a military buildup of their own.

I am not saying it's a fact. What I am saying is that we can't know for sure until more info is revealed.

EDIT: and I don't understand why you think Tevinter is that weak. It managed to survive several Exalted marches of almost everyone against it. It's not an easy foe. Slave armies are not useless, in fact historically they have been pretty efficient.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 avril 2011 - 08:56 .

[Lithuasil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote... 

EDIT: and I don't understand why you think Tevinter is that weak. It managed to survive several Exalted marches of almost everyone against it. It's not an easy foe. Slave armies are not useless, in fact historically they have been pretty efficient.

Against exalted marches (i.e beggar armies) of course they're not weak.
The primary disadvantage of a slave army, is their low morale. The Qunari are the most fearsome creatures (dragons and ogres aside) in all of thedas. And they have cannons (early cannons were primarily psychological weapons). (and of course, the qunari have perfect moral, and a much higher stamina then humans, rendering superior numbers 'almost' useless)
The most common tactic employed by slave armies, is simply drowning the enemy with a tight formation of bodies. Against such a formation, the two most effective things are a) Cannons / weapons covering a large ground like say poisonous gas and having cavalry, or say eight foot tall armored, berserking monsters charge right into them  (which are incidentally, the two primary tactics attributed to the qunari).
The only thing holding the qunari at bay, was magic. Now in a slave army, you're much less likely to encounter such mages, and the magisters hardly strike me as the kind of generals that lead from the front.
(Oh, and of course, the qunari canonically have way better ships, and need to transport way less soldiers, thereby having a much easier supply route).

That's all ideal conditions for the Qunari. Whether that makes it easy for them or not, fighting any other army in thedas, composed of say religious fanatics, career soldiers, and properly supplied with mages, is going to be much much harder for the qunari, then fighting slaves on an island.

[KJandrew]

This seems to have turned into a debate about the Qunari military rather than 'Shok vs Meredith.
IMO the Arishok is a warrior, he's made for charging into the enemy line and taking on dozens of men and coming out on top. Meredith is made for fighting mages and their accomplices, i'd assume that requires speed eg.killing the mage before they can do some huge power like Jowan at the beginning of Origins.
So i'll go with this:
If they meet in a battle the Arishok wins
In a duel Meridith's speed gives her a huge chance but he Arishok might have a chance of wining

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lithuasil wrote...
Against exalted marches (i.e beggar armies) of course they're not weak.

Beggar armies? What? Exalted marches mobalise the armies of all nations of Thedas.
And since those armies have Templars, that essentially counter Tevinter's greatest strength, it's a wonder they haven't lost.

The primary disadvantage of a slave army, is their low morale. The Qunari are the most fearsome creatures (dragons and ogres aside) in all of thedas. And they have cannons (early cannons were primarily psychological weapons). (and of course, the qunari have perfect moral, and a much higher stamina then humans, rendering superior numbers 'almost' useless)

They don't necessarily have low morale. If Fenris is any indication, he killed his saviors because his master told him so. If Orana is any indication, she is fiercely loyal to her masters. Slaves do not necessarily have low moral.
The Tevinters have magic and I think they have the most powerful mages.

Numbers are essential in any protracted conflicts. Wars are not just the summation of battles.

The most common tactic employed by slave armies, is simply drowning the enemy with a tight formation of bodies. Against such a formation, the two most effective things are a) Cannons / weapons covering a large ground like say poisonous gas and having cavalry, or say eight foot tall armored, berserking monsters charge right into them  (which are incidentally, the two primary tactics attributed to the qunari).

Not necessarily. Slave armies can be professional armies that employ advanced tactics and strategies. In fact historically, many professional armies were slave armies. Mamluks come to mind. Indeed, since the Tevinter imperium didn't lose against the Exalted marches, I think that professional slave armies could be a reason.

Furthermore, magic could create barriers to mitigate cannon damage.

The only thing holding the qunari at bay, was magic. Now in a slave army, you're much less likely to encounter such mages, and the magisters hardly strike me as the kind of generals that lead from the front.
(Oh, and of course, the qunari canonically have way better ships, and need to transport way less soldiers, thereby having a much easier supply route).

They don't have to be in the front. All they need to be is on some hill overlooking the battle and shooting their spells. And Tevinter has  mage Circles, with mages that are not magisters. I think if anyone is not hesitant to mobalise them to war, it's Tevinter.

Their ships can be countered by magic. All you need is to create one powerful storm and you coudl wipe out a whole fleet.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 avril 2011 - 09:22 .

[Camenae]

Would magic really overpower technology? I always thought what Lord Voldemort really needed was a bullet in the face.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ok where did we get the idea that Tevinter fights with slave armies only?

In the DA wikia, it says this:
"The Imperium draws a variety of soldiers from its territories to form an impressive army. Most noted throughout Thedas, however, is the use of elephant mounts that have been imported into Tevinter for centuries through the coastal colonies near the northwestern jungles; and a trio of gigantic war golems purchased from the dwarves, known as the Juggernauts. "

Am I missing something?

[The Angry One]

Regardless, many mages in Tevinter are slaves, too.

Camenae wrote...

Would magic really overpower technology? I always thought what Lord Voldemort really needed was a bullet in the face.

The kind of magic thrown about by mages in Dragon Age would overpower large cannons.
If the Qunari ever scaled down to guns it might be a different story.

[KnightofPhoenix]

If the spells in the game are any indication, Tevinters can keep spamming arcane shield and barriers, effectively reducing Qunari cannon effectiveness a great deal.

If it was ancient Tevinter that was fighting the Qunari, and unleashing their blood magic with sheer impunity, I think they'd crush them.

EDIT: using haste on cavalry sounds awesome btw.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 avril 2011 - 09:34 .

[Dan-mac RI]

Pre-Lyrium light saber. Arishok. She's a templar and most of her special abilities don't help much vs anybody who's not a mage. Meanwhile, the Arishok's abilities are effective vs. just about anyone and I think he's got more experience fighting. Templars only have to worry about mages who aren't terribly good fighters hand to hand, meanwhile, the Arishok has been fighting probably his whole life.

Post-Lyrium light saber, come on, that's not even fair, I say the Arishok gets a cannon when she gets the idol/sword.

[Dan-mac RI]

The Angry One wrote...

The kind of magic thrown about by mages in Dragon Age would overpower large cannons.
If the Qunari ever scaled down to guns it might be a different story.

Agreed, because everyone can pull a trigger, not everyone can launch a fireball with their mind. Though it depends on the length of a battle. Lyrium potions won't last forever, cannons don't get tired.

Modifié par Dan-mac RI, 04 avril 2011 - 10:10 .

[Annihilator27]

Arishok hands down, I thought he would be the final boss at first....

[PantheraOnca]

Dan-mac RI wrote...

Lyrium potions won't last forever, cannons don't get tired.

Just rotate mages around to take advantage of OP OOC regen. And cannons can blow themselves up (but i guess that's the cannonical equivalent of abominations, so there ya go).

[Rifneno]

Dan-mac RI wrote...

 Lyrium potions won't last forever, cannons don't get tired.

You do realize those cannons require an expendable resource to operate, right?

[The Angry One]

And keep in mind we're talking Tevinters here, which means liberal use of blood magic.

[Lithuasil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ok where did we get the idea that Tevinter fights with slave armies only?

In the DA wikia, it says this:
"The Imperium draws a variety of soldiers from its territories to form an impressive army. Most noted throughout Thedas, however, is the use of elephant mounts that have been imported into Tevinter for centuries through the coastal colonies near the northwestern jungles; and a trio of gigantic war golems purchased from the dwarves, known as the Juggernauts. "

Am I missing something?

Interesting - I was merely assuming slave armies akin to persia, my bad. Makes tevinter more awesome and the "qunari would totally own them, if they wanted to" argument even more unlikely. 

On a different matter - One of the two mayor gripes I had with the often mourned lack of choice in DA2, was not being able to side with Ser Varnell, and the anti qun conspiracy. Turns out, you actually can. I'm sorry I doubted you, bioware. Reason I bring this up - if you do side with Ser Varnell, a Qunari strike team, complete with Sten and Saarebas, storms the room. Gameplay or not - this *would* explain why the arishok knows, if you kill ser varnell but decide to hide the bodies. But it would also mean that the oh so honorable "we protect those of the qun" arishok sacrificed his delegation as political pawns.