341 réponses à ce sujet

[Lithuasil]

PantheraOnca wrote...

We have no basis to believe the arishok is unskilled. The way a warrior pc fights does not show that he is skilled or just brute forcing, the way the arishok fights does not show that he is skilled or just brute forcing. The fight with meredith also doesn't show how skilled/unskilled she is. we have no basis to think she is particularly good with a sword or particularly more powerful than any other fighter, aside from her rank.

You don't get to the top of a warrior caste by being unskilled. He is not that much larger than any other military qunari. if he happens to be completely skillless, then he is so much stronger/larger/stamina-er(?) than his opponents that no amount of skill could help you. it would be like standing before a landslide with a sword and thinking you could skill your way out of it.

We see meredith handling a sword, outside her bossfight, and quite competently so. We see the Arishok crushing headon into walls. Those are at least hints. And yes, you can get to the top of a warrior caste of slow, dumb lumbering oafs, by being the biggest slow, dumb, lumbering oaf.

If the game doesn't count as a valid source, consider this; NO ONE but the most delusionally retarded of bersekers, fights with two long weapons, of equal length but unequal weight in a duel. Being a large berserker, with two large hunks of iron mindlessly flailing around,  is all nice and fancy, when you crash into a battle line. In a duel, it's a surefire way to disaster. Strength and Stamina do you good in a duel - if both parties rely on it. As soon as one starts bringing technique into it, the one that can't keep up is ****ed.

[The Angry One]

Lithuasil wrote...

If the game doesn't count as a valid source, consider this; NO ONE but the most delusionally retarded of bersekers, fights with two long weapons, of equal length but unequal weight in a duel. Being a large berserker, with two large hunks of iron mindlessly flailing around,  is all nice and fancy, when you crash into a battle line. In a duel, it's a surefire way to disaster. Strength and Stamina do you good in a duel - if both parties rely on it. As soon as one starts bringing technique into it, the one that can't keep up is ****ed.

Rule of cool don't you know.
It's like how people love John Woo style dual wielding pistols even though you'd never hit an elephant pulling that off.

[Curlain]

What's annoying is they remove dual-wielding from warriors, and then to really rub it in your face, they allow the Arishok (who seems to be a warrior) to dual-wield <_<

[Lithuasil]

Curlain wrote...

What's annoying is they remove dual-wielding from warriors, and then to really rub it in your face, they allow the Arishok (who seems to be a warrior) to dual-wield <_<

What's annoying is they banned rogues, even duellists, from using proper weaponry 

[The Angry One]

Lithuasil wrote...

Curlain wrote...

What's annoying is they remove dual-wielding from warriors, and then to really rub it in your face, they allow the Arishok (who seems to be a warrior) to dual-wield <_<

What's annoying is they banned rogues, even duellists, from using proper weaponry 

Did I mention I love mods?
Yes I like being annoying.

[Lithuasil]

The Angry One wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Curlain wrote...

What's annoying is they remove dual-wielding from warriors, and then to really rub it in your face, they allow the Arishok (who seems to be a warrior) to dual-wield <_<

What's annoying is they banned rogues, even duellists, from using proper weaponry 

Did I mention I love mods?
Yes I like being annoying.

It's not annoying if you tell me where to find them 

[The Angry One]

Lithuasil wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Curlain wrote...

What's annoying is they remove dual-wielding from warriors, and then to really rub it in your face, they allow the Arishok (who seems to be a warrior) to dual-wield <_<

What's annoying is they banned rogues, even duellists, from using proper weaponry 

Did I mention I love mods?
Yes I like being annoying.

It's not annoying if you tell me where to find them 

What I do is swap dagger models with sword models with an editor.
There's also this.. social.bioware.com/project/4377/ and dragonagenexus has some mods that'll give dual wielding skills to warriors but they don't work as well.

[KJandrew]

Read the codex. the Qunari are generally seen as the best fighters in Thedas, aside from the grey wardens. Now seeing as the Arishok is the leader of all those warriors in a society were you have to be the most efficient to rise station i highly doubt that the Arishok is unskilled

[PantheraOnca]

Lithuasil wrote...

We see meredith handling a sword, outside her bossfight, and quite competently so. We see the Arishok crushing headon into walls. Those are at least hints. And yes, you can get to the top of a warrior caste of slow, dumb lumbering oafs, by being the biggest slow, dumb, lumbering oaf.

I remember seeing Meredith stab or slash someone at some point. I don't remember exactly what she did, but I'm certain it didn't evoke a "oooh, beyond master swordsman(person) she is!" response. It looked like something anyone could have done just as well.

The qunari are not dumb. They are at the very least thoughtful. The Arishok certainly is thoughtful. A thoughtful people who have a warrior caste would not, I almost want to say could not, have warriors at the top, if not throughout, who are skillful.

If the game doesn't count as a valid source, consider this; NO ONE but
the most delusionally retarded of bersekers, fights with two long
weapons, of equal length but unequal weight in a duel. Being a large
berserker, with two large hunks of iron mindlessly flailing around,  is
all nice and fancy, when you crash into a battle line. In a duel, it's a
surefire way to disaster.

What I am saying is that the Arishok dual wielding was a style thing to be impressive by the writers. I doubt that the Qunari lack knowledge of what does and doesn't work in a duel. You assume they don't know anything (or next to nothing).

I am also saying that fight mechanics don't necessarily reflect storytelling reality. Its an example of (I don't know if there is a term for this) being able to do fantastical feats, but not being able to jump over a fence, in-game. As far as the game goes, the Arishok had to hit slow and do a charge so that there was a way to out-play him; as far as the story goes there was a mighty battle between Hawke and the Arishok, which the Arishok lost.

Strength and Stamina do you good in a duel -
if both parties rely on it. As soon as one starts bringing technique
into it, the one that can't keep up is ****ed.

Unless the one without technique just plays keep away until Messere Technique runs out of steam trying to be all fancypants.

[The Angry One]

KJandrew wrote...

Read the codex. the Qunari are generally seen as the best fighters in Thedas, aside from the grey wardens. Now seeing as the Arishok is the leader of all those warriors in a society were you have to be the most efficient to rise station i highly doubt that the Arishok is unskilled

And yet what do we see in game? Bare chested, spear chucking, dual 2 hander wielding oafs.
This is not gameplay, this is in-game lore. The Qunari's reputation is.. inflated at best. When was the last time there was a full scale war between the Qun and Thedas? 300 years? There's been a decline it seems.

[Lithuasil]

KJandrew wrote...

Read the codex. the Qunari are generally seen as the best fighters in Thedas, aside from the grey wardens. Now seeing as the Arishok is the leader of all those warriors in a society were you have to be the most efficient to rise station i highly doubt that the Arishok is unskilled

Speaking about a race, that arms the largest body of their forces with spears, without any shields or side arms, and appears to be beyond such cowardly tactics as 'fighting in formation'...

Unless you want to handwave the equipment the guy uses in the game, and in the trailers, the guy is evidently an idiot, and in a duel, provided the enemy doesn't get paralyzed by fear, either lucky enough to have his opponent slip on a banana, or dead meat.

The Qunari are fearsome fighters because they're big, strong and look like the savage beasts they are. It takes a lot of gut to not turn tail, when there's humans charging you. It takes much more, to stand your ground when there's a roaring eight foot monstrosity coming your way. But against a trained professional (like say, a knight commander with thirty years of training) - not a snowballs chance in hell. Not in a battle, and absolutely not in a duel.

[Talladarr]

Porenferser wrote...

Just for Fun:D

In a direct 1:1 battle, who would win?

I'd say the Arishok by far if they would use normal weapons, but with her Lyrium-Lightsaber or whatever this nonsense was, I think Meredith would be the victor.

Opinions?

At the end of Act 2 she didn't have that sword yet, meaning not super-lyrium-enhanced-crazy-sh!t Meredeth, so Arishok

[Lithuasil]

PantheraOnca wrote...
Unless the one without technique just plays keep away until Messere Technique runs out of steam trying to be all fancypants.

Point is, you can't. With two weapons that size, both of which need to be swung to deal damage, you can either flail blindly (which is exhausting, easy to sidestep, and will result in your weapons clashing at some point), or attack in an incredibly basic pattern (creating, in this case literally, openings the size of a fridge). 
This kind of weaponry works, if you chug these guys in large numbers against a tight formation, or phalanx. Lots of them will still die, because there's no way to viably defend yourself like this, but they'll break the formation up. In a one on one, it's plain and simply suicide, provided your opponent keeps his nerve, and has had basic sword training (both of which we can grant a senior templar)

[PantheraOnca]

Lithuasil wrote...

PantheraOnca wrote...
Unless the one without technique just plays keep away until Messere Technique runs out of steam trying to be all fancypants.

Point is, you can't. With two weapons that size, both of which need to be swung to deal damage, you can either flail blindly (which is exhausting, easy to sidestep, and will result in your weapons clashing at some point), or attack in an incredibly basic pattern (creating, in this case literally, openings the size of a fridge). 
This kind of weaponry works, if you chug these guys in large numbers against a tight formation, or phalanx. Lots of them will still die, because there's no way to viably defend yourself like this, but they'll break the formation up. In a one on one, it's plain and simply suicide, provided your opponent keeps his nerve, and has had basic sword training (both of which we can grant a senior templar)

I was speaking in the abstract there.

In this particular case, are we assuming Meredith is using a 2h sword? SnB? a lone single handed blade? Who's to say the Arishok wouldn't sheathe one of his weapons to play keep away? Who's to say he even drew both in the first place? Maybe the two weapons he had in the duel were just what he had on hand to fight piles of soldiers, rather than duel?

The essence of my argument comes down to this: We cannot hold relatively insignificant traits, such as fighting style, that we see in game to be cannon because accurately reproducing the fighting style of the qunari or even the Arishok is not necessarily the goal of the game or the story the game is telling. If we were to read the script for the Arishok duel, I'm certain it would be much more vague and varied than the fight we have to play through.

Until David Gaider comes in here and states that what we saw of the Arishok was the actual and full capability of the Arishok, I am going to assume that the impression of the fighting style of the Arishok we have is Gamist-based rather than Simulationist-based.

[The Angry One]

PantheraOnca wrote...

In this particular case, are we assuming Meredith is using a 2h sword? SnB? a lone single handed blade? Who's to say the Arishok wouldn't sheathe one of his weapons to play keep away? Who's to say he even drew both in the first place? Maybe the two weapons he had in the duel were just what he had on hand to fight piles of soldiers, rather than duel?

Uh.. because he keeps that style to duel Hawke whether you have a 2h sword, daggers, are a mage, whatever.
And the Arishok carries those two weapons since the moment you meet him.

[Talladarr]

Again I reiterate, Meretith didn't have her bat-****-crazy-ass-lyrium-lightsaber until Act 3

[Lithuasil]

PantheraOnca wrote...
Until David Gaider comes in here and states that what we saw of the Arishok was the actual and full capability of the Arishok, I am going to assume that the impression of the fighting style of the Arishok we have is Gamist-based rather than Simulationist-based.

I'm not arguing based on the fighting styles we see ingame, purely based on the choice of armor and weapons. If we can't take the game as a source for that, all discussion is void, because I could just as well say "maybe varric exaggerated and in reality the arishok is five foot tall, fights with toothpicks and hits like a little girl". We either take the sources as we have them (Meredith with a bastard sword, the arishok with four anvils worth or roughly weapon shaped iron), or we can stop arguing, and start writing up fanfiction about how the duel would go in our own little world.

Edith: Oh also, I'd like to see how you keep a smaller, more dexterous fighter at a distance, with a longsword/battleaxe, without exhausting yourself *way* before the other guy. With a polearm or a fencing weapon that works. With sword and board, if you're good. Otherwise... not so much.

Modifié par Lithuasil, 03 avril 2011 - 07:09 .

[PantheraOnca]

The Angry One wrote...

PantheraOnca wrote...

In this particular case, are we assuming Meredith is using a 2h sword? SnB? a lone single handed blade? Who's to say the Arishok wouldn't sheathe one of his weapons to play keep away? Who's to say he even drew both in the first place? Maybe the two weapons he had in the duel were just what he had on hand to fight piles of soldiers, rather than duel?

Uh.. because he keeps that style to duel Hawke whether you have a 2h sword, daggers, are a mage, whatever.
And the Arishok carries those two weapons since the moment you meet him.

He doesn't have those weapons on him sitting in his chair in Act 1. I don't specifically recall if we see him holding weapons before the duel. I will keep an eye out on this playthrough. Funfact: Fenris knows some of the qun/qunari language, yay for different parties.

Lithuasil wrote...

I'm not arguing based on the fighting styles we see ingame, purely based
on the choice of armor and weapons. If we can't take the game as a
source for that, all discussion is void, because I could just as well
say "maybe varric exaggerated and in reality the arishok is five foot
tall, fights with toothpicks and hits like a little girl". We either
take the sources as we have them (Meredith with a bastard sword, the
arishok with four anvils worth or roughly weapon shaped iron), or we can
stop arguing, and start writing up fanfiction about how the duel would
go in our own little world.

Edith: Oh also, I'd like to see how
you keep a smaller, more dexterous fighter at a distance, with a
longsword/battleaxe, without exhausting yourself *way* before the other
guy. With a polearm or a fencing weapon that works. With sword and
board, if you're good. Otherwise... not so much.

Varric was actually the one that beat the Arishok, but he wanted to make Hawke's story sound better so he told it the way we play it. :-p

But, essentially, we are writing fanfiction. These two never fought. We are imagining what would happen. I'm not disagreeing that the honkin-dual-wield approach is less than ideal for a duel. What I am arguing is that he wouldn't use those weapons for a duel. Even more essentially, I was arguing against your point that the qunari are big derp-de-der oafs.

I haven't even touched on the fact that I don't think that Meredith would be more nimble or dexterous than the Arishok. I understand why you think that, especially based on how responsive the big guy is during his duel, but I don't consider that anything like cannon at all. Its kind of like in WoW, just because VanCleef was something like level 20, doesn't mean that he would lose lore-wise in a fight against random Stormwind guard #43 who happened to be level 58.

Step 1: Try to get elves back to be persecuted by the guard
Step 2: Start a duel with the Arishok.
Step 3: ...
Step 4: Beat the Arishok.

I think we've arrived at the "agree to disagree" threshold, and probably crossed it.

Modifié par PantheraOnca, 03 avril 2011 - 07:36 .

[The Angry One]

Talladarr wrote...

Again I reiterate, Meretith didn't have her bat-****-crazy-ass-lyrium-lightsaber until Act 3

She didn't become Knight-Commander because some commitee said she could as a child (unlike a certain Arishok), she got there by skill and experience.
She only had the lyrium sword for 3 years at most, the rest is all her.

[Lithuasil]

PantheraOnca wrote...
Even more essentially, I was arguing against your point that the qunari are big derp-de-der oafs. 

They are, for all I know. Both the tactics and equipment we get to see, match that description pretty well, and it's by no means a contradiction to the reports we have in the Codex. The qunari primarily fight the tevinter. Which, for all I know, feel free to correct me, will primarily field slave armies.
So we have on one side, slave armies (whose moral is by their very nature near zero), and on the other side we have an army of really scary looking dudes, who are too brainwashed to care if they live or die. That advantage of moral is what wins the qunari battles. And everything we get to see (bodypaint, intimidation speeches, skirmishing/berserking tactics, light weaponry) of the qunari military, points exactly in that direction. And that works well to an extend, until you face an enemy that doesn't wet himself, doesn't break formation, and therefore doesn't get overwhelmed. Like say, the guys who train their whole life to hunt bloodmages and slay demons. 

[DeathStride]

The Angry One wrote...

Ympulse wrote...

I'm just going to say this.
Angry one, you're obviously running multiple mods. Your opinion is invalid when discussing the game in it's retail form. Troll elsewhere.

... because mods affect a story discussion.
You couldn't fail more if you had a Jacob avatar.

... oh wait.

Ouch. Would you like some ointment for that burn?

I don't normally condone such but you asked for it when you summarily declared her opinion invalid...

[KJandrew]

The Angry One wrote...

Talladarr wrote...

Again I reiterate, Meretith didn't have her bat-****-crazy-ass-lyrium-lightsaber until Act 3

She didn't become Knight-Commander because some commitee said she could as a child (unlike a certain Arishok), she got there by skill and experience.
She only had the lyrium sword for 3 years at most, the rest is all her.

The Aroshok wasn't given the postion of Arishok as a child. He was asigned the position of a warrior when he was a child and he rose in position inside that caste because he was the most effiecient

[Porenferser]

She didn't become Knight-Commander because some commitee said she could as a child (unlike a certain Arishok), she got there by skill and experience.

So you say the Arishok is incompetent and he is just Arishok because he was born into this role?

You know the Qunari.
If this Arishok would have been incompetent he would have been killed by his people and would't have stayed in his position for this long.

Modifié par Porenferser, 03 avril 2011 - 08:51 .

[The Angry One]

KJandrew wrote...

The Aroshok wasn't given the postion of
Arishok as a child. He was asigned the position of a warrior when he was
a child and he rose in position inside that caste because he was the
most effiecient

That would mean he superceeded his role.
So apparently Sten and the Arishok are both liars.

Porenferser wrote...
So you say the Arishok is incompetent and he is just Arishok because he was born into this role?

Whether or not he was promoted, he was still selected at a young age for this role. He didn't volunteer. He didn't show exceptional skill to be put in the army. Not like Meredith would have, anyway.
I'm just saying there's no comparison.

You know the Qunari.
If this Arishok would have been incompetent he would have been killed by his people and would't have stayed in his position for this long.

Again, I don't call the supreme military commander of the entire Qunari sitting on his ass in Kirkwall for 4 years after failing to stop a ship with vastly inferior (that is, no) firepower and sailing his own ship into a storm particularily competent.
That's not even getting into breaking a long standing treaty because he feels like it and assaulting Kirkwall's keep in a bruteforce, indefensible attack he ends up losing.

Modifié par The Angry One, 03 avril 2011 - 08:56 .

[KJandrew]

The Angry One wrote...

KJandrew wrote...

The Aroshok wasn't given the postion of
Arishok as a child. He was asigned the position of a warrior when he was
a child and he rose in position inside that caste because he was the
most effiecient

That would mean he superceeded his role.
So apparently Sten and the Arishok are both liars.

How? the Arishok says you are given a role that could be  soldier, quartermaster, farmer, teacher, piest. In that role you are expected to improve youself and so the most efficient become the ones in positions of power