341 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

QuintusVolcae wrote...

Again, because they were retrieving a book, not preparing for battle.

What the hell kind of idiots are the Qunari if they send their supreme military commander with a military escort on a military ship and don't give them proper gear if that's not what they normally use?
Even I don't think they're that stupid.

Modifié par The Angry One, 04 avril 2011 - 01:44 .

[Lithuasil]

PantheraOnca wrote...
Yes. They hardly know the blunt end from the pointy end. Its not like they consider their swords to have their souls or anything.

Someone who brings two long weapons to a duel, doesn't know shít about swordplay, the point stands. He might be a fearsome berserker on a battlefield, but he is most certainly no competent fencer.

[The Baconer]

The Angry One wrote...

Meredith has skill, but so does the Arishok. He is not just, "a big, clumsy, oaf." he is far stronger than Meredith and most undoubtedly has more stamina to be able to plow through 30-40 gaurds without breaking a sweat.

And in-game what do we see?

Say what you want about the Arishok's skill, but Meredith's flailing about with the Soul Edge doesn't imply any finesse either.

His attacks were designed to be like that to give the player an advantage.

Excuses.

Like how Meredith was given Galactus amounts of health so a good portion of the cast could participate in the fight without just steamrolling her

[The Angry One]

See this is why arguing a story question with gameplay mechanics is bad.
That said, the 2h stance for any warrior Meredith or not lacks finesse and style.

Modifié par The Angry One, 04 avril 2011 - 01:48 .

[DeathStride]

Lithuasil wrote...

And I don't doubt he has dueled other Qunari before. In other words, people who, like him, hardly know the blunt end from the pointy end. That doesn't speak in his favor, it speaks against his henchmen really.

I think you might be stating your own opinion of the Qunari as fact here... to say that the Qunari soldiers who have been training as warriors ostensibly focusing on that to the exclusion of any other goal from adolescence don't know the "blunt end [of a weapon] from the pointy end" is gross misstatement.

This is from a codex entry by Genitivi, "Tales of the Destruction of Thedas:"

Genitivi wrote...
To some, they are hated conquerors whose deadly skill at combat and destructive technology nearly brought the civilized world to its knees.

Please don't call into question the authenticity of Genitivi's documentation of the Thedasian world and its people- he has been a highly reliable source of information even from back in DA:O. He's one of the easiest and most well-recognized ways for the DA writers to introduce detailed information about Thedas to players and whenever there's something they don't want the players to take as fact, they always have Genitivi mention that the info isn't necessarily 100% accurate in various ways.

Additionaly, to more specifically address the quote, the "To some" part only applies to the "hated conquerors" section of that sentence; the combat skill and technology parts are given as direct facts/info on the Qunari, not as questionable assertions.

Finally, take Genitivi's info on the Qunari warriors and add to it the DA2 Guide's Enyclopedia entry on the Arishok:

The Guide says...
Qunari generals are also warriors rather than tacticians, leading from the fromt, so the Arishok outranks his troops my a measure of strength, physique, and prowess.

What we get from that is that the Arishok a peerless warrior in an army of soliders that have been training with an unwavering focus and discipline in martial arts since adolescence and clearly posess deadly skill in combat. So saying he doesn't know the "blunt end from the pointy end"- essentially calling him incompetent as a warrior is flat out wrong.

Whether the Arishok or Meredith would win in a battle is debatable, who is more skilled between them is debatable, whether the Qunari and especially the Arishok are competent warriors is really not. The first two end up being subjective things based on opinon and can't really be proven, but Qunari battle and martial prowess is one of the defining characteristics of their race in DA.

Modifié par DeathStride, 04 avril 2011 - 01:53 .

[Crocodiles]

Meredith, it took your whole party to take her down, plus she can animate statues.

[The Angry One]

DeathStride wrote...
The Guide says...
Qunari generals are also warriors rather than tacticians, leading from the fromt, so the Arishok outranks his troops my a measure of strength, physique, and prowess.

You do realise this is by the Qunari's own standards, right?
When your fellow soldiers chuck spears and lumber about like ox men, then it doesn't take much to rise to the top.

Modifié par The Angry One, 04 avril 2011 - 01:51 .

[Lithuasil]

I'm not calling him incompetent as a warrior. I'm calling him incompetent as a fencer, based on everything I see, and I call him a total failure as a tactician and leader, based on anything we can see in the game.
On a battlefield, he'll still be a fearsome berserker, and I wouldn't want to stand in the phalanx he crashes into. But that's a completely different skillset.

[AngelicMachinery]

Merideth, even without the lyrium lightsaber.

[The Baconer]

The Angry One wrote...

See this is why arguing a story question with gameplay mechanics is bad.
That said, the 2h stance for any warrior Meredith or not lacks finesse and style.

Well, if we're going to grill the Qunari over how they're portrayed in gameplay...

[The Angry One]

The Baconer wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

See this is why arguing a story question with gameplay mechanics is bad.
That said, the 2h stance for any warrior Meredith or not lacks finesse and style.

Well, if we're going to grill the Qunari over how they're portrayed in gameplay...

That's not gameplay, they behave exactly the same way in cutscenes.
Their reaction time is also appalling. "Whut 3 of our guys just got roasted by a bas saarebas? Let's just stand here a while and look at him!"

Modifié par The Angry One, 04 avril 2011 - 01:55 .

[Herr Uhl]

The Angry One wrote...

You do realise this is by the Qunari's own standards, right?
When your fellow soldiers chuck spears and lumber about like ox men, then it doesn't take much to rise to the top.

Consider that the Chantry's greatest advantage was their mages, and sheer numbers. Now consider Orsino.

Now, you may feel free to imagine how incredibly useless their soldiers were in that case.

[The Baconer]

The Angry One wrote...
That's not gameplay, they behave exactly the same way in cutscenes.
Their reaction time is also appalling. "Whut 3 of our guys just got roasted by a bas saarebas? Let's just stand here a while and look at him!"

That's not a trait exclusive to the Qunari, however. Bioware knows nothing about portraying proper combat tactics, cutscenes or otherwise.  And I have yet to see a cutscene that shows how competent of a fighter Meredith is.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Are we seriously going to question Qunari military competence when we know they were able to stand up against all of Thedas combined and the last Exalted march only managed to kill civilians and didn't even chip the Qunari army?

It sounds unreasonable to me. You could argue that the particular Qunari group in DA2 was incompetent. I'd add that everyone was incompetent, because bioware simply sucks at warfare. But I do not think we should use that as evidence that the Qunari just suck at war, because they evidently don't.

[Cavalier753]

I know they're trained to fight more than mages, but they fight mages more often.

I don't think the qunari were planning on having to chase a pirate into a storm and get stranded in a foreign city and an attempt to take it over because their religion demands it.

Excuses.

He does what his religion tells him to do. Sorry if you don't understand the Qun.

A bunch of dead guards, and a beheaded viscount.

I didn't design the game. It's not excuses, it's facts.

Those statues are her group, and for the last wave she was with them.

Did I say that's what you said literally? Do other people say "Herr derr," in their sentences? No just you. Troll.

In A fight with Meredith, Arishok has roflstomp.

[The Angry One]

Fair enough, no fight in the game is particularily competent, however I still feel Qunari are at the bottom end of that already low scale.
As for the Qunari victories in the past and not being able to "scratch" their armies. I'm crediting their cannons.

[The Angry One]

QuintusVolcae wrote...

I know they're trained to fight more than mages, but they fight mages more often.

I don't think the qunari were planning on having to chase a pirate into a storm and get stranded in a foreign city and an attempt to take it over because their religion demands it.

Excuses.

He does what his religion tells him to do. Sorry if you don't understand the Qun.

A bunch of dead guards, and a beheaded viscount.

I didn't design the game. It's not excuses, it's facts.

Those statues are her group, and for the last wave she was with them.

Did I say that's what you said literally? Do other people say "Herr derr," in their sentences? No just you. Troll.

In A fight with Meredith, Arishok has roflstomp.

Obvious troll, not bothering.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...
As for the Qunari victories in the past and not being able to "scratch" their armies. I'm crediting their cannons.

The Ming dynasty had cannons and they got owned by the Qing.

Technology doesn't win wars. It's how it's applied. It requires tactical and strategic understanding.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 avril 2011 - 02:03 .

[The Angry One]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
As for the Qunari victories in the past and not being able to "scratch" their armies. I'm crediting their cannons.

The Ming dynasty had cannons and they got owned by the Ching.

Technology doesn't win wars. It's how it's applied. It requires tactical and strategic understanding.

Which possibly the Qun have with their cannons.
Perhaps their weapons technology are placed under actual tacticians rather than gorillas like the Arishok.

[Lithuasil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Are we seriously going to question Qunari military competence when we know they were able to stand up against all of Thedas combined and the last Exalted march only managed to kill civilians and didn't even chip the Qunari army?

It sounds unreasonable to me. You could argue that the particular Qunari group in DA2 was incompetent. I'd add that everyone was incompetent, because bioware simply sucks at warfare. But I do not think we should use that as evidence that the Qunari just suck at war, because they evidently don't.

Actually, for an army that is the living embodyment of "culture sue", composed entirely of eight foot tall elite warriors, with technology hundreds of years ahead of everyone else, involving their mages into warfare more then anyone else, with perfect morale, and supposedly unlimited numbers of volunteering recruits - waging war for hundreds of years, and half conquering an island and a city, is a pretty pathetic result.
Imagine WW2, only everything Germany managed to occupy amounts to Luxembourg. 

[DeathStride]

Lithuasil wrote...

I'm not calling him incompetent as a warrior. I'm calling him incompetent as a fencer, based on everything I see, and I call him a total failure as a tactician and leader, based on anything we can see in the game.
On a battlefield, he'll still be a fearsome berserker, and I wouldn't want to stand in the phalanx he crashes into. But that's a completely different skillset.

As tactician and leader, I myself have wondered WTH is going through his mind with the way he handles things. Also, like I mentioned earlier, one of the main advantages any opponent of his would have(in my mention it was Meredith) in a fight against him is agility and and nimbleness, basically staying one step ahead of him, to the side of him, or behind him, as the case may call for.

But then that really isn't an advantage Meredith makes use of. She uses a two-handed greatsword, a weapon that is as tall as herself! Just lifting that thing would take considerable effort for her, no matter how well-trained she is. So the Arishok's lack of 1 on 1 "fencing" ability really wouldn't be all that big a deal in a duel between the two, I figure.

Modifié par DeathStride, 04 avril 2011 - 02:07 .

[The Angry One]

DeathStride wrote...

But then that really isn't an advantage Meredith makes use of. She uses a two-handed greatsword, a weapon that is as tall as herself! Just lifting that thing would take considerable effort for her, no matter how well-trained she is. So the Arishok's lack of 1 on 1 "fencing" ability really wouldn't be all that big a deal in a duel between the two.

In Act 2 she uses a longsword. Given the rules of the game it's odd she doesn't have a shield, not sure if that's a mistake or not.
Maybe she's meant to be a fencer?

[Lithuasil]

DeathStride wrote...
But then that really isn't an advantage Meredith makes use of. She uses a two-handed greatsword, a weapon that is as tall as herself! Just lifting that thing would take considerable effort for her, no matter how well-trained she is. So the Arishok's lack of 1 on 1 "fencing" ability really wouldn't be all that big a deal in a duel between the two, I figure.

She doesn't have Soul Edge at this point, just a regular pretty sharp bastard sword.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lithuasil wrote...
Actually, for an army that is the living embodyment of "culture sue", composed entirely of eight foot tall elite warriors, with technology hundreds of years ahead of everyone else, involving their mages into warfare more then anyone else, with perfect morale, and supposedly unlimited numbers of volunteering recruits - waging war for hundreds of years, and half conquering an island and a city, is a pretty pathetic result.

One of their weakness is lack of numbers.

I am not saying the Qunari are epic conquerors and are just awesome military genuises. But they are not as incompetent as some are making it look like. They can stand up with Thedas.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 avril 2011 - 02:10 .

[The Angry One]

If we were to argue Meredith with a normal 2 hander vs. the Arishok, brute force vs. brute force then yes the Arishok would probably win.
Then again this should also apply to Hawke but yeah, plot armour.