531 ответов в этой теме

[AreleX]

I mean that you can then walk over to your tank and cower in stealth to redirect the aggro, if you're not going to kill the enemy outright.

[Gage123]

Can't wait to try this with my 50% increased enemy HP mod and 100% increased HP (...boss fights wtf long). Maybe this can shorten it.

[Irish Porkchopp]

I see. Cowering is key.

I have a video request, if you're taking them- Templar Hunters!

When you have time of course. I'm willing to wait.

Сообщение изменено: Irish Porkchopp, 01 Апрель 2011 - 11:08 .

[Amioran]

Hmmm...

At mid level I would simply respec all the DW line. The DW talents are good only at beginning, after they just remove all the real DPS of the build. You need only UC really, the rest doesn't matter and it is either counterproductive and stamina starving (since you don't either have FT).

If you remove all DW talents you can reach Vendetta much faster. Later you can pick by preference (but, anyway, I will never choose DW talents for a damage build at high level).

Сообщение изменено: Amioran, 01 Апрель 2011 - 11:15 .

[LunaticSane]

So Glad there's a DW build guide now. A lot of things I like on here, but having tried a lot of different builds, I ended up out of the Duelist tree.

Some minor niggles! (or an alternative approach)

As a Rogue, you shouldnt be getting hit - Throw the Gautlet is counter-intuitive to that role. Ideally you don't want to be taunting, despite be able to one-shot your target..
Apart from Vendetta, the only other ability that's ok is the passive - Sure strikes (comparable to Precision in the Specialist tree). Vendetta is the only incentive for this tree, it's awesome. But 4 abilities in?

Shadow has some great abilies, on a par to Duelist, even if you pick less into the tree. I can only rave about the utility of Decoy. Surviviblity = more damage. That and Pinpoint Precision, for the +25% crit. I'd argue that Shadow delivers more dps and survivibility than Duelist. Especially considering theres no need for the +defence in Duelist. Cunning covers that anyway.

And if you want to go further down the Shadow tree for stealth+obscure effects, you only have to really pick up Chameleon's Breath + upgrade from the Subtufuge tree (3 ablities in total, picking up Evade). Rather than going nuts for an upgraded Fatiguing Fog in the Sabotage tree.


Anyway! I love the detaills/info you've got on your guide. I'd really like to see a video of the build in a duel vs the Arishok. That'd be a nice showcase of a one-on-one, and very apt for the Assasin/Duelist build.

Сообщение изменено: LunaticSane, 01 Апрель 2011 - 11:25 .

[AreleX]

Irish Porkchopp wrote...

I see. Cowering is key.

I have a video request, if you're taking them- Templar Hunters!

When you have time of course. I'm willing to wait.

Good choice, actually. I've got a lot of footage that I need to get off my laptop to clear space, and I'm going to upload a Templar video next.

LunaticSane wrote...

So Glad there's a DW build guide now.
A lot of things I like on here, but having tried a lot of different
builds, I ended up out of the Duelist tree.

Some minor niggles! [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie] (or an alternative approach)

As a Rogue, you shouldnt be getting hit - Throw the Gautlet is counter-intuitive to that role. Ideally you don't want to be taunting, despite be able to one-shot your target.. Apart from Vendetta, the only other ability that's ok is the passive - Sure strikes (comparable to Precision in the Specialist tree). Vendetta is the only incentive for this tree, it's awesome. But 4 abilities in?

I plan to do Shadow eventually, but my rationale behind going Duelist is this: the best defense is a good offense. Get strong enough, and you can circumvent the need for things like Obscure and most Shadow abilities entirely with the sheer speed that enemies get dropped at. I have Throw the Gauntlet because any enemy under its effects (with the Cutting Barbs upgrade) is flat-out dead, period. I'm only going to get hit if I do something wrong.

I have videos of me doing some of the toughest fights in the game with this build, and I didn't need Shadow or Decoy or any kind of subversion besides the occasional Stealth to lose aggro. I'm not putting Shadow down, and I'm not trying to discredit the abilities that it has, I just love Vendetta and Throw the Gauntlet for my playstyle.

Сообщение изменено: AreleX, 01 Апрель 2011 - 11:43 .

[Pzykozis]

Amioran wrote...

Hmmm...

At mid level I would simply respec all the DW line. The DW talents are good only at beginning, after they just remove all the real DPS of the build. You need only UC really, the rest doesn't matter and it is either counterproductive and stamina starving (since you don't either have FT).

If you remove all DW talents you can reach Vendetta much faster. Later you can pick by preference (but, anyway, I will never choose DW talents for a damage build at high level).

I'd argue against this purely for Twin fangs, it's your alternative one shot abilitiy and will deal with those pesky assassins and mages when you've finished chunking your previous foe with assassinate. It's a shame that it requires 4 points though, but merciless is good for when vendetta is on CD to take advantage of stagger and it hurts like crazy.

Edit: @AreleX What's your attribute distribution like? I tend to get cunning up fairly early to be able to open the pesky chests and then Dex to be able to equp gear then keep them fairly level, but from your vids you appear to put a fair bit into will and con aswell?

Сообщение изменено: Pzykozis, 01 Апрель 2011 - 11:50 .

[Shep309]

My hate for you and your excellent guides has only grown exponentially deeper!

Making the rest of us look bad.

Keep up the good work you son of a ****!

[LunaticSane]

AreleX wrote...

I plan to do Shadow eventually, but my rationale behind going Duelist is this: the best defense is a good offense. Get strong enough, and you can circumvent the need for things like Obscure and most Shadow abilities entirely with the sheer speed that enemies get dropped at. I have Throw the Gauntlet because any enemy under its effects (with the Cutting Barbs upgrade) is flat-out dead, period. I'm only going to get hit if I do something wrong.

I have videos of me doing some of the toughest fights in the game with this build, and I didn't need Shadow or Decoy or any kind of subversion besides the occasional Stealth to lose aggro. I'm not putting Shadow down, and I'm not trying to discredit the abilities that it has, I just love Vendetta and Throw the Gauntlet for my playstyle.

By following your rationale - Shadow would be your best defense . Seriously though, isn't there a cap for defense? I could be wrong but isn't it 80%? This can be hit with just Cunning.

Actually, you don't need to go that far into the Shadow tree to even be concerned about obscure - just pick up three abilites, 2 for aggro management, and the other for +25% critical damage. The upgraded Throw the Gauntlet, could just be spent in upgrading the Assasins Mark of Death for example.

Not knocking the playstyle as it's pretty good and Vendetta is cool. Just Shadow is a very viable alternative, without having to into the tree heavily for stealth+obscure (which turns out to be pretty good)

Build I'm currently going with:
http://biowarefans.c...K1arVwQutelBFDs

Сообщение изменено: LunaticSane, 02 Апрель 2011 - 01:27 .

[ScroguBlitzen]

LunaticSane wrote...

Build I'm currently going with:
http://biowarefans.c...K1arVwQutelBFDs

@Lunatic-  If you are playing with a team then Shadow is unnecessary.  1 point in Cloak is more than enough to dump aggro when needed.  Dualist and Vendetta are better in this case.  You can have 3 insta kills available.  Assassinate, Twin Fangs and Vendetta.

IF however you want to play solo on Nightmare then Shadow just enough for Decoy is a better choice.

I think your build wastes these points:
Disorienting Criticals -> Situational crit bonus not worth it imo.
Shadow Veil -> Meh.
Evade
Chameleon's Breath -> don't need.
Chameleon's Cloud -> don't need.

I'd throw the saved points into Specialist Harmony, and/or improve Mark of Death.

[AreleX]

As requested, here's a video of my Templar Hunter taking on the rest of the Order, in the missions The Midnight Meeting and Dissent.

DW Assassin - Templar vs Templar (Midnight Meeting/Dissent)

Two more videos from the clip dump remain, then I'm going to go outside or something goddamn it, I've been in here typing all day.

Shep309 wrote...

My hate for you and your excellent guides has only grown exponentially deeper!

Making the rest of us look bad.

Keep up the good work you son of a ****!

Love you too, Shep.

LunaticSane wrote...

By following your rationale - Shadow would be your best defense . Seriously though, isn't there a cap for defense? I could be wrong but isn't it 80%? This can be hit with just Cunning.

Actually, you don't need to go that far into the Shadow tree to even be concerned about obscure - just pick up three abilites, 2 for aggro management, and the other for +25% critical damage. The upgraded Throw the Gauntlet, could just be spent in upgrading the Assasins Mark of Death for example.

Not knocking the playstyle as it's pretty good and Vendetta is cool. Just Shadow is a very viable alternative, without having to into the tree heavily for stealth+obscure (which turns out to be pretty good)

Build I'm currently going with:
http://biowarefans.c...K1arVwQutelBFDs

I don't need defense, I very rarely get hit or suffer any kind of serious threat. I have Duelist for Vendetta because I love Vendetta, and think it's one of the most fun skills in the game for my 'in-your-face' playstyle. I never made any misgivings about the reasoning behind my choice for  the specialization, or that Shadow may very well be superior in some regards, and I will play that specialization when I have time later.

Сообщение изменено: AreleX, 02 Апрель 2011 - 01:59 .

[Irish Porkchopp]

HA! Rebel Templar! Awesome combat there AreleX. Perfect music choice as well. In your FACE Hunter!

I think I enjoyed that too much.

[AreleX]

One last video before I call it in and finally get the hell out of here:

DW Assassin - Sleep Now in the Fire
For Non-US/Canada bros who have the video blocked

Hope you guys enjoy the videos and guide, I'm off to goddamn rest.

Сообщение изменено: AreleX, 02 Апрель 2011 - 03:32 .

[IN1]

Very important remark regarding Vendetta/Blood Feud mechanics:

As a rule, in most scenarios, it's counter-productive to upgrade Vendetta to Blood Feud. That's how it works: all DamageScale affecting talents/spells (I'm referring here to flat DamageScale debuffs - Mark of Death, Wounding Arrow, Hex of Torment, as opposed to percentile DamageScale debuffs - Destroyer and spirit type damage innate mechanics) lower enemy's Damage_Resistance property by a fixed value (the theoretical minimum for this property is -1000, the not-so-theoretical maximum is 100). 

Typically, Mark of Death alone is enough to make a creature's Damage_Resistance negative (and if you have Bastian+Merrill, it will get seriously negative). Now, Blood Feud sets enemy Damage_Resistance to 0. Thus, if you use Mark of Death prior to that (and it's superficially logical to do so), you will end up buffing the creature for additional Damage_Resistance.

The solution is either to use a non-upgraded Vendetta as an immediate follow-up to MoD > Assassinate (I prefer this route: it grants you access to the second best single-target nuke at level 11, for a total cost of 3 talent pts), or to use Blood Feud without Mark of Death/as a CCC only (totally viable, but somewhat annoying and time-consuming).

[AreleX]

IN1 wrote...

sqiggles and wizard math

Very good point that I did not consider, I'll be sure to amend the guide with this information soon.

[IN1]

Regarding Duelist vs Shadow:

There is no such issue. Duelist is amazing, Shadow is meh at best, unless you prefer role-playing to efficiency. Shadow's greatest benefit is a super-early +25 CriticalRange from Pinpoint Precision. Actually, I suggest taking Shadow as a first specialization at 7, then respecializing to Assassin at 10 (Assassinate). +25 CriticalRange is a very significant boost that early into the game, while Assassin's pre-Assassinate talents in their non-upgraded form are mediocre at best.

Never take Shadow as your second specialization. Remember, by level 14, your CriticalRange should already hit 250+, if your rogue is properly built. Getting it to 275 is nice, but ultimately negligible, whereas having a second nuke with a built-in teleport and maxed out attack/defense vs NM bosses is not.

Сообщение изменено: IN1, 02 Апрель 2011 - 03:48 .

[Teknor]

An attribute distribution guide would be great.

[Altima Darkspells]

Amioran wrote...

Hmmm...

At mid level I would simply respec all the DW line. The DW talents are good only at beginning, after they just remove all the real DPS of the build. You need only UC really, the rest doesn't matter and it is either counterproductive and stamina starving (since you don't either have FT).

If you remove all DW talents you can reach Vendetta much faster. Later you can pick by preference (but, anyway, I will never choose DW talents for a damage build at high level).

The thing about the DW tree is that, while yes most of the talents are pretty worthless, twisting fang is almost as good as assassinate.  Plus it's a safe following to bosses that don't get brittle'd (it happens.  A lot), especially if a boss and one or more assassins take the field.

Because Arelex is going into Duelist instead of shadow, she should have plenty of leftover talent points.  So there's really no reason not to dip into DW for chain, explosive strike, and twisting fang.

[Altima Darkspells]

ScroguBlitzen wrote...


@Lunatic-  If you are playing with a team then Shadow is unnecessary.  1 point in Cloak is more than enough to dump aggro when needed.  Dualist and Vendetta are better in this case.  You can have 3 insta kills available.  Assassinate, Twin Fangs and Vendetta.

IF however you want to play solo on Nightmare then Shadow just enough for Decoy is a better choice.

I think your build wastes these points:
Disorienting Criticals -> Situational crit bonus not worth it imo.
Shadow Veil -> Meh.
Evade
Chameleon's Breath -> don't need.
Chameleon's Cloud -> don't need.

I'd throw the saved points into Specialist Harmony, and/or improve Mark of Death.

I disagree on this.  Shadows are, in my opinion, superior to the Duelist.  They have superior defenses, which work by not getting hit at all (or even becoming a target, thanks to inconspicuous).

Disorienting Criticals isn't so situational that it's worthless.  Conceal is really easy to come by, to the point where it can be gained by simply entering stealth (which Shadows have at least three ways to do--Stealth, Back to Back, and the 3% chance).  Chamelion's Breath works very well as a full party buff.

Plus, taking the Shadow over the Duelist, while you will lose Vendetta and probably most of the DW tree, it is made up for it by having, more often than not, 50% increased to critical damage.

But they each have their place.  Duelists can cut through several of the nastier critters very quickly (between Assassinate, Vendetta, and Twisting Fangs) while Shadows can slaughter the pesky mobs in short order, as well as make something dead with an almost guarantee.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Biggest downside to Defense is that it's not counted against activated abilities, like Hunter/Assassin spine ripping.

[Amioran]

Pzykozis wrote...
I'd argue against this purely for Twin fangs, it's your alternative one shot abilitiy and will deal with those pesky assassins and mages when you've finished chunking your previous foe with assassinate. It's a shame that it requires 4 points though, but merciless is good for when vendetta is on CD to take advantage of stagger and it hurts like crazy.

4 points are A LOT at middle game, when you must take Vendetta. After you can take it, having the spare points, but also there I think there are better options for survivability.

Then when you have Assassinate and Vendetta you have all the spike damage you ever want. Against bosses TF doesn't do that much of a difference and on swarm encounters it's not needed anyway. The only encounter it can have some uses is when you have more than three assassins at the same time (as in the Bekker hideout), but it is too situational.

Сообщение изменено: Amioran, 02 Апрель 2011 - 07:49 .

[Amioran]

Altima Darkspells wrote...
The thing about the DW tree is that, while yes most of the talents are pretty worthless, twisting fang is almost as good as assassinate.  Plus it's a safe following to bosses that don't get brittle'd (it happens.  A lot), especially if a boss and one or more assassins take the field.

Assassinate on non Brittle does much more damage than TF. The only way it comes close it is against staggered enemies, but for that you have Vendetta. Sincerely in one build I had it along wth Vendetta and Assassinate and there were only two real useful occasions when the points warranted the use. All the rest I could do without and take survivability talents instead.

Altima Darkspells wrote...
Because Arelex is going into Duelist instead of shadow, she should have plenty of leftover talent points.  So there's really no reason not to dip into DW for chain, explosive strike, and twisting fang.

Back-to-Back + FT
Evade + Upgrade + Subtlety are a much a better choice all around and comes REALLY handy.

You can go versus TF if you prefer, but later, not early. Respeccing for Vendetta at mid-game is much better, and anyway, as I said, TF is not really that useful when you have Assassinate and Vendetta.

Сообщение изменено: Amioran, 02 Апрель 2011 - 07:48 .

[Amioran]

Altima Darkspells wrote...
I disagree on this.  Shadows are, in my opinion, superior to the Duelist.  They have superior defenses, which work by not getting hit at all (or even becoming a target, thanks to inconspicuous).

Superior defense? Duelists have the most defense by far, given the passives and Parry. There's no even the remotest possibility a Shadow can come close.

Altima Darkspells wrote...
Disorienting Criticals isn't so situational that it's worthless.  Conceal is really easy to come by, to the point where it can be gained by simply entering stealth (which Shadows have at least three ways to do--Stealth, Back to Back, and the 3% chance).  Chamelion's Breath works very well as a full party buff.

Conceal it is good only with an archer. With DW it is simply a waste. The attack speed means that you are out of both stealth and obscure in less than a millisecond. It can be good situationally, but it's not a constant help.

As for threat when you have Subtletly it is mostly enough if you have a good specced tank. Rogues already come with -25% threat, with Subtlety it becomes -50%. Bravado and Taunt it is enough. The only occassions you can gather threat is if you attack an enemy outside the Bravado range, but i is easily overcome.

Altima Darkspells wrote...
Plus, taking the Shadow over the Duelist, while you will lose Vendetta and probably most of the DW tree, it is made up for it by having, more often than not, 50% increased to critical damage.

It is only +25%, normally. 50% only when you are obscured, but to this you must subtract the many more points in Dex that you must put (instead of Cun) to hit Elites and Bosses (or you will glance most of the time with them). Duelist has +20/40% (with Parry) attack, you can put all the points in Cun without problems whatsoever.

Altima Darkspells wrote...
But they each have their place.  Duelists can cut through several of the nastier critters very quickly (between Assassinate, Vendetta, and Twisting Fangs) while Shadows can slaughter the pesky mobs in short order, as well as make something dead with an almost guarantee.

Sure, both have their place. However I think that Shadow is much a better option for an archer, all around.

Сообщение изменено: Amioran, 02 Апрель 2011 - 08:03 .

[Pzykozis]

Amioran wrote...

4 points are A LOT at middle game, when you must take Vendetta. After you can take it, having the spare points, but also there I think there are better options for survivability.

Then when you have Assassinate and Vendetta you have all the spike damage you ever want. Against bosses TF doesn't do that much of a difference and on swarm encounters it's not needed anyway. The only encounter it can have some uses is when you have more than three assassins at the same time (as in the Bekker hideout), but it is too situational.

For me having TF means a lot more spike during cds for the other abilties, none of Assassin / Vendetta or TF are very good in swarm combat because you'll kill things much faster with auto attack (though vendetta is great for mobility).

I'd still use merciless aswell, but then thats more of a preference thing I guess, I dislike just using auto attack, it's fairly monotonous.

I do however agree with you that follow-through and back to back would be good to pick up I enjoy the insane mobility of back to back and vendetta, and there are some spare points in this build aswell. But, I don't see such a need for survivability, as seen AreleX has a great set up party wise that in general the rogue doesn't get hit, survivability is a waste if you never really need to use it, though I guess Arishok would be the judge of needed or not)

[Altima Darkspells]

Amioran wrote...

Superior defense? Duelists have the most defense by far, given the passives and Parry. There's no even the remotest possibility a Shadow can come close.

The Shadow's superior defense is not being targetted at all.  Stealth instantly clears threat.  Inconspicuous instantly clears threat AND keeps rogues from generating anymore.  Shadows can also gain conceal easily, which is a flat dodge rate, not the scaled defense rate which, in the end, barely means squat.

Shadows putting most of their points into cunning also have high Defense as well.

Amioran wrote...

Conceal it is good only with an archer. With DW it is simply a waste. The attack speed means that you are out of both stealth and obscure in less than a millisecond. It can be good situationally, but it's not a constant help.

Not really.  With lingering shroud, yes, you're out of concealment, but with other obscure effects--like lingering fog, bursting arrow, and chameleon's breath--the concealment lasts a set amount of time, meaning you'll be doing significant damage for ten to fifteen seconds.

Amioran wrote...

As for threat when you have Subtletly it is mostly enough if you have a good specced tank. Rogues already come with -25% threat, with Subtlety it becomes -50%. Bravado and Taunt it is enough. The only occassions you can gather threat is if you attack an enemy outside the Bravado range, but i is easily overcome.

Perhaps, but that 50% adds up very quickly, and Taunt does have quite a long cooldown.  Plus there are instances where Shadows can use threat to her advantage, such as balling up enemies with decoy.

Amioran wrote...

It is only +25%, normally. 50% only when you are obscured, but to this you must subtract the many more points in Dex that you must put (instead of Cun) to hit Elites and Bosses (or you will glance most of the time with them). Duelist has +20/40% (with Parry) attack, you can put all the points in Cun without problems whatsoever.

My Shadow/Assassin has no problems hitting enemies with a 1 dex:2 cunning stat distribution, and she has well over 200% critical damage.  Her hit rate is about 93%.  Considering that most of her auto-attacks are against the trash mobs (as anything that's more significant gets dead real quick), that's really not an issue.

Amioran wrote...

Sure, both have their place. However I think that Shadow is much a better option for an archer, all around.

Well, the good thing about an Assassin/Shadow is that you don't have to put any point at all into either the archery or DW tree, which is great if you don't wish to be married to a weapon (or want to not get in melee range, or if you can't like with the High Dragon).

In my next playthrough, I think I'll fiddle around with the Duelist a little more.  Though I guess I could go to an earlier save and respect my Shadow...