174 réponses à ce sujet

[rabbitchannel]

Has anyone tried running around with a +[highest possible value] fire damage mage? The opportunity cost of giving preference to +fire damage items is probably a bit too high but I'm curious about the damage output.

[Tainan7509]

It is a fireball made by EA.

[juho123]

spacepopeadventures wrote...

I've no dog in this fight, but seriously, GOW, anyone should be able to see the gulf in gameplay between AreleX and Ralph-Nader and yourself. Their theorycrafting is backed up by their footage. Yours, um, isn't.

You still have the better username, though.

@juho123: Winter's Grasp and Chain Lightning have identical requirements, yet they start strong and stay strong the whole game.

And yet fireball has much larger area of effect than either of those and it knocks the enemies down or stuns them for a few seconds. Yes you can say winter grasp helps in that matter too but fireball is a good control spell for a huge area. Also chain lightning has rather pathetic area of effect, enemies have to be shoulder to shoulder with the target to get hit.

[Fruit of the Doom]

Fireball doesn't have a knockdown effect. It has a puny x2 (x4 if upgraded) elemental force effect.

[spacepopeadventures]

Fireball's AOE isn't really impressive until upgraded. Once upgraded, yeah, it can be useful ("sucks" doesn't mean "totally useless"), but compare what you get from it with what you get from upgraded Winter's Grasp (freeze, brittle and a small AOE) and Chain Lightning (most practical CCC in the game). A piddling disruption effect and a bit of damage to enemies in the AOE is nothing next to that.

Modifié par spacepopeadventures, 17 avril 2011 - 05:41 .

[jndiii]

rab****annel wrote...

Has anyone tried running around with a +[highest possible value] fire damage mage? The opportunity cost of giving preference to +fire damage items is probably a bit too high but I'm curious about the damage output.

I have. The highest I've had it at is +144%, though I suspect it can possibly be higher.  

The long and the short of it is that it saves having to switch out staves unless they're resistant to fire, or it's a fight that obviously requires something other than fire (arishok, AWR).  Against fire-vulnerable enemies, of course, it's overkill.  I don't know the exact numbers (they change with difficulty), but if being vulnerable to an element means that the damage against them by that element is doubled, the +144% means that switching to the "vulnerable" element will do less damage than sticking with fire.  Even if you have bonuses for that other element, those bonuses are usually no more than 25-50%, which means you get the aggravation of switching, but still do the same damage or only a bit more ... and THAT extra damage output only matters against bosses, because the minions and lieutenants will still take the same number of hits from the staff.  Only if there is resistance to fire will switching elements to the vulnerable one significantly increase damage.  Fire Storm (with party equipped with fire resistance on NM difficulty) will quickly clean up a wave or two.

This does mean forgoing some "nicer" equipment for parts of the game, but not by a huge degree.  Some of the best equipment has some very good +x% fire damage bonuses.

W/r Fireball, I still find it lackluster, even with the +144% damage bonus.  Its damage scale is lower than every other spell in the game, which is amazingly bad for a damage-only spell.  Winter's Grasp does about 3x as much damage, AND gets a +25% or +50% on top of that, so Fireball is about half as damaging, even with the +144% bonus.  Fireball will maybe knock around a few normals with a 2x or 4x elemental effect.  Winter's Grasp will slow them by 50%, if not freeze them or kill them outright, or set them up for a CCC.  The spells aren't even in the same league.

[Roxlimn]

Fireball absolutely, absolutely sucks as a single target damage spell. If you can't target more than 3 enemies regularly with it, you won't like it.

[Roxlimn]

spacepopeadventures wrote...

I've no dog in this fight, but seriously, GOW, anyone should be able to see the gulf in gameplay between AreleX and Ralph-Nader and yourself. Their theorycrafting is backed up by their footage. Yours, um, isn't.

You still have the better username, though.

@juho123: Winter's Grasp and Chain Lightning have identical requirements, yet they start strong and stay strong the whole game.

To be fair, GOW's theorycraft states that Mages do crap damage and are gimped and suck.  His videos totally demonstrate that.

[jndiii]

Roxlimn wrote...

Fireball absolutely, absolutely sucks as a single target damage spell. If you can't target more than 3 enemies regularly with it, you won't like it.

Except that you can target 3-4 enemies with WInter's Grasp for the same mana cost and cooldown, and get all the side effects.  Or use Cone of Cold for slightly less damage (still more than Fireball) and get all the side effects on even more enemies.  The Fireball area of effect is not so amazingly large that it makes up for its low damage, nor is its mana cost or cooldown low enough to explain why it merely annoys normal enemy minions even with +124% fire damage.  Never mind that by the time there is a good enough cluster to make Fireball "effective," all the other AoE spells are far better choices and do more damage.

Fireball needs one of the following:
- A damage boost to be on a par with Cone of Cold damage
- A lower mana cost
- A shorter cooldown (like Maker's Fist)
- A CCC effect.
- Or some other noticeable secondary effect that controls normal bad guys for more than 0.5 seconds.

I believe that Fireball was limited mostly because it was intended to be pure damage, and that the +x% fire items would make up for its lower base damage.  If so, I would suggest that they estimated the proper base damage rather low, especially considering it is essentially just a damage spell.

[Roxlimn]

I do not have the skill necessary to reliably target three to four enemies with Winter's Grasp. To be honest, I find it a challenge to reliably target two enemies with it every time it's available.

I don't find it nearly as difficult to target three or four enemies with Fireball.

[Brixxer600]

I've just started a playthrough of DA:O as a Mage and the fire spells in that game are so much better , they make you feel like you are "The Baddest Man on the Planet" , DA2 fire spells feel very puny in comparison.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Roxlimn wrote...

To be fair, GOW's theorycraft states that Mages do crap damage and are gimped and suck.  His videos totally demonstrate that.

Unfortunatly the only thing I've seen that you do well is insult those who say the game could use some balancing, like you do on the ME2 board as well. You have no DA2 profile and no videos up so I don't even know if you play the game. You did say you play, and said you've not done a NM plalythrough yet.

Troll on trollmeister.

[Roxlimn]

Grumpy Old Wizard:

I just said that your videos totally justify your viewpoint! What more did you want?

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

jndiii wrote...

Fireball needs one of the following:
- A damage boost to be on a par with Cone of Cold damage
- A lower mana cost
- A shorter cooldown (like Maker's Fist)
- A CCC effect.
- Or some other noticeable secondary effect that controls normal bad guys for more than 0.5 seconds.

I believe that Fireball was limited mostly because it was intended to be pure damage, and that the +x% fire items would make up for its lower base damage.  If so, I would suggest that they estimated the proper base damage rather low, especially considering it is essentially just a damage spell.

I'd be for boosting the damage a bit on fireball.

I think that overall the spells need a bit more boost from the Magic stat.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 17 avril 2011 - 09:01 .

[Roxlimn]

Brixxer600 wrote...
I've just started a playthrough of DA:O as a Mage and the fire spells in that game are so much better , they make you feel like you are "The Baddest Man on the Planet" , DA2 fire spells feel very puny in comparison.

All the spells in DAO are more powerful.  It's widely believed by players that the Mage in DAO is decidedly overpowered.  Fireball is a cool spell, but Inferno, Blizzard, Tempest, Earthquake - those are the real money makers.

[Fruit of the Doom]

They took away my great balls of fire and replaced them with puny balls of fire...

[Roxlimn]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...
They took away my great balls of fire and replaced them with puny balls of fire...

Fireball in DAO is a tier 3 effect.  This is equivalent to Earthquake, Cone of Cold, and Tempest.  Would you have been happier, if they replaced Firestorm with Fireball in the tree, made Fireball equivalently powerful to how Firestorm is now, and put in Fire Blast as a tier 1 effect?

[Fruit of the Doom]

Couldn't you crawl into a bush somewhere and die? That would be great, thanks.

[Teknor]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Couldn't you crawl into a bush somewhere and die? That would be great, thanks.

Reported for trolling.

[Roxlimn]

Can't understand the hostility. It was a completely honest question.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Roxlimn wrote...

Can't understand the hostility. It was a completely honest question.

The poster was probably tired of your trolling and constant insults of anyone who says the game is not perfectly balanced. So chill and the next time you feel like making some smart mouthed comment just take some time out before you post. It is ok for people to have opinions that do not match your own.

It is no bad reflection on Bioware that the game could use some tweaks. Games often need balancing after their initial release.

[Fruit of the Doom]

Teknor wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Couldn't you crawl into a bush somewhere and die? That would be great, thanks.

Reported for trolling.

There isn't a "trolling" option under the Report button, so knock yourself out.

If you must know, I was just quoting Alistair from DA:O and wasn't really serious.

Has all the funny party banter from Origins been forgotten already? 

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 18 avril 2011 - 06:19 .

[Roxlimn]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...
Can't understand the hostility. It was a completely honest question.

The poster was probably tired of your trolling and constant insults of anyone who says the game is not perfectly balanced. So chill and the next time you feel like making some smart mouthed comment just take some time out before you post. It is ok for people to have opinions that do not match your own.

It is no bad reflection on Bioware that the game could use some tweaks. Games often need balancing after their initial release.

1. I'm not trolling.  If you continue to insinuate, I will interpret it as harassment and act accordingly.
2. I don't insult anyone, and I don't think that the game is perfectly balanced.  Just in case that's not properly read, I'll capitalize it.  I DON'T THINK THE GAME IS PERFECTLY BALANCED.
3. I never said it wasn't okay for you to post your opinion that the Mage is weak.  In fact, I have, in this thread, agreed with you!  If we use your playthrough as a measure of Mage power, the class is as gimped, weak, and sucky as you say it is.  In fact, I'd say it's suckier and weaker than you say it is.  See?  I'm agreeing with you.  What more can you ask for?

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Roxlimn wrote...

1. I'm not trolling.  If you continue to insinuate, I will interpret it as harassment and act accordingly.

Your numerous negative statements about me and others in various threads is certainly harrassment then. i suggest you start scrubbing your posts if you intend to sick the moderators on someone.

[Amioran]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
It is no bad reflection on Bioware that the game could use some tweaks. Games often need balancing after their initial release.

This is fun.

So you actually think that your "opinion" is the right one and that Bioware should balance an issue that YOU (among other 2-3 samely minded and samely inept individual on the things spoken) think is there even when proofs of many other people (much more experienced on the matter at hand) have demonstrated the exact contrary? What evidence have you brought upon your case apart insisting on closing your hears and eyes to not hear and see? You have made a bad figure after another, insisting "this is not possible to do", or "this doesn't work", and everytime you have been proven completley wrong and everytime this happens you simply change point (or reset) as if nothing ever happened. What ground your "opinon" can possess given these premises?

So you actually think that Bioware should care about yours and other two same individuals "issues", coming from people that don't either clearly understand the mechanics behind the class they continue judging yet they instist they know everything about it?

So you actually think that Bioware should balance the game on the fact that you and other two/three people in these forums are evidently not very good at playing mages (as videos shows much too well) and yet the insist on judging the class on their merits/demerits? Excuse me but that would be like taking someone that has a 1200 ranking in chess, have him/her judge chess masters' games and then pretend FIDE to adjust rankings based on that judgement. It would have the same validity, i.e. NONE.

The game has some balancing issues, certainly, the problem is that: A) they are not those you insist upon, you don't have the knowledge necessary to understand if a mage is weak or not and on which points they are, in case, C) given that you simply don't want to see nor hear nor ponder proofs that have continually come to you (why they even care at this point is beyond me) why should someone really give a damn about your "opinion" anymore?, D) if Bioware would really listen to you (God bless us in the case) the game would become completely broken and I'm glad they will  NEVER listen.

Modifié par Amioran, 19 avril 2011 - 05:15 .