174 réponses à ce sujet

[Fruit of the Doom]

I don't think the mage is too weak, I just think Fireball is too weak.  Hence the topic title.

Maybe just adding a physical force effect so it can knock enemies down rather than just make critters do a half-second (non-damaging) fire dance Or make the upgrade increase the damage instead of the range. Or maybe just have the upgrade half the cooldown and nothing else.

Fist of the Maker outclasses it every conceivable way. It does more damage, ignores armor, knocks enemies to the ground, and can do x10 damage on staggered targets. Not to mention it has half the cooldown and the same AoE when fully upgraded, all in exchange for only 20 more mana.

Fireball is just simply too cool and classic of a spell to be almost completely useless beyond the first act of the game, in my humble opinion.

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 19 avril 2011 - 05:27 .

[Ayanko]

Fist of the maker actually does damage now? What? I remember being a Mage with 100 magic and it barely did anything. Forget this magic I want what the serabass have, that magic "lurkss kwlllll"

I think there might be something wrong with the fireball myself...it's pretty weak even with the upgrades, Ice seems to do alot more damage than fire these days.

[Wulfram]

Doesn't Fireball marginally outdamage FotM once you take into account the fire damage boosts in the Elementalist tree?

[Roxlimn]

Fruit of the Doom:

The upgrade to Searing Fireball increases Elemental Force as well as area effect, and taking Force Mage (who doesn't?) increases the Elemental Force by 25% again.

The increased size of Searing Fireball means that it's plausible to catch as many as the entire encounter's worth of enemies in it - as many as 8 to 10 targets at a time. It also means that it's more useful for flushing out Assassins if you've got nothing else to do with it.

Fist of the Maker has lower cooldown, and does more damage on CCC, but Fireball does more damage outside of the combo, all area damage stacks, and it's pretty spammable from a mana perspective. Fist of the Maker is a generally better power, but it's also a higher level power, and it costs more mana, so it doesn't outclass Fireball in EVERY conceivable way.

Assuming a DPS of 70 (use appropriate level approximation), with a +100% fire setup, a Fireball hitting 8 targets has a damage output of about 1456 in fire damage. That's pretty respectable for a low tier spammable power.

I get that the iconic vision of Fireball as a mighty spell is something some fans might want. However, to balance that, Fireball must be pushed back as a higher level power. The question I asked was an honest one. Would you have preferred Fireball to take the place of the mighty Firestorm, and be similarly awesome, and have some other spammable fire spell at tier 1?

[Fruit of the Doom]

Roxlimn wrote...

Fruit of the Doom:

The upgrade to Searing Fireball increases Elemental Force as well as area effect, and taking Force Mage (who doesn't?) increases the Elemental Force by 25% again.

The increased size of Searing Fireball means that it's plausible to catch as many as the entire encounter's worth of enemies in it - as many as 8 to 10 targets at a time. It also means that it's more useful for flushing out Assassins if you've got nothing else to do with it.

Fist of the Maker has lower cooldown, and does more damage on CCC, but Fireball does more damage outside of the combo, all area damage stacks, and it's pretty spammable from a mana perspective. Fist of the Maker is a generally better power, but it's also a higher level power, and it costs more mana, so it doesn't outclass Fireball in EVERY conceivable way.

Assuming a DPS of 70 (use appropriate level approximation), with a +100% fire setup, a Fireball hitting 8 targets has a damage output of about 1456 in fire damage. That's pretty respectable for a low tier spammable power.

I get that the iconic vision of Fireball as a mighty spell is something some fans might want. However, to balance that, Fireball must be pushed back as a higher level power. The question I asked was an honest one. Would you have preferred Fireball to take the place of the mighty Firestorm, and be similarly awesome, and have some other spammable fire spell at tier 1?

Funny how you overlook the fact that FotM ignores armor, and brushed off the x10 CCC.  All of your math sounds good on paper, but it simply does not match up with in-game performance at all.  You would be much better off using Firestorm or Tempest on a crowd of 10 mobs.  Of course any AoE will be effective if you give it ridiculous situations like that.  Not to mention the fact that you think the elemental force actually counts for something, which is kind of funny and sad at the same time.

I offered multiple solutions, only one of which even included increasing the damage and it also mentioned nerfing other aspects of it in exchange.  So stop acting like I just want to make it all powerful.

The bulk of your argument is whining about mages being overpowered in Origins, so I am having trouble really taking you seriously.  This isn't an MMORPG or a competitive multiplayer game in anyway, so why does it matter so much if someone wants one spell to be tweaked?  The position of it on the spell line has nothing to do with utility.  Chain Lightning is on the first row.  Rock Armor is on the first row.  So stop acting like that has anything to do with the situation.

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 19 avril 2011 - 07:06 .

[Roxlimn]

Funny how you overlook the fact that FotM ignores armor, and brushed off the x10 CCC. All of your math sounds good on paper, but it simply does not match up with in-game performance at all. You would be much better off using Firestorm or Tempest on a crowd of 10 mobs. Of course any AoE will be effective if you give it ridiculous situations like that. Not to mention the fact that you think the elemental force actually counts for something, which is kind of funny and sad at the same time.

1. I didn't overlook anything. Btw, I'm going to point out that FotM actually does 900% damage on CCC, not 1000%. It's just a nitpick, but I'm kind of OC like that. I mentioned CCC damage in the reply you quoted. Anyway, the point of that is just to point out that FotM doesn't outclass Fireball in every way, like you said, not to say that Fireball is superior.

2. There is nothing preventing a Mage from using both Firestorm and Fireball on the same group of enemies, particularly since he has to take Fireball anyway. Heck, add Tempest, too. These powers are not in contention. They are additive.

I offered multiple solutions, only one of which even included increasing the damage and it also mentioned nerfing other aspects of it in exchange. So stop acting like I just want to make it all powerful.

Shrug. I want it to be more powerful. But I don't want it to be unbalanced. If it were to be as awesome as Firestorm, it needs to occupy the same position.

The bulk of your argument is whining about mages being overpowered in Origins, so I am having trouble really taking you seriously. This isn't an MMORPG or a competitive multiplayer game in anyway, so why does it matter so much if someone wants one spell to be tweaked? The position of it on the spell line has nothing to do with utility. Chain Lightning is on the first row. Rock Armor is on the first row. So stop acting like that has anything to do with the situation.

It does when you're comparing it with Fist of the Maker. Chain Lightning is a superior spell by itself, but it has its own issues, not the least of which is that it's in a tree that's got somewhat inferior inherent damage dealing overall, so it's got to make up some.

A spell in a first tier in a generic spell tree can be taken immediately, so yes, it does have something to do with how and what it is.

[Fruit of the Doom]

Roxlimn wrote...

Shrug. I want it to be more powerful. But I don't want it to be unbalanced. If it were to be as awesome as Firestorm, it needs to occupy the same position.

And I said I wanted it to be as powerful as Firestorm where?  Oh yeah, nowhere.  So stop bring that comparison up, because it isn't what I am arguing.  If you want to argue with a Straw Man, by all means make one and feel free to shout at it to your hearts content.   I suggested some minor tweaks like a reduced AoE and cooldown, or reduced AoE and slightly increased damage, or just adding a physical force effect.  Oh so unbalancing.  Not to mention I suggested that you have to invest a point in it to get said bonuses.

It does when you're comparing it with Fist of the Maker. Chain Lightning is a superior spell by itself, but it has its own issues, not the least of which is that it's in a tree that's got somewhat inferior inherent damage dealing overall, so it's got to make up some.

A spell in a first tier in a generic spell tree can be taken immediately, so yes, it does have something to do with how and what it is.

You mean like Chain Lightning and Rock Armor?  Two of the most useful spells in the game?  And Winter's Grasp?  All of which are leagues better than Fireball?  Or even Fist of the Maker, which is still better than Fireball no matter how you try to nitpick about it.

Go away and argue with Grumpy Old Wizard.  I have seen your posts in other topics, and it's painfully obvious that you just don't want mages buffed at all for some (likely inane) reason.  There's no other reason for you to be this ridiculously opposed to any changes to Fireball.  You insist that you do want it buffed, but you have done nothing in this thread but oppose, demean, and troll anyone who suggests any changes to it.  I don't care if an abomination killed your family or a mage stole your girlfriend.  All this topic is about is the fact that Fireball is almost useless as it is, and could use some tweaking.

I don't know why I am even wasting the time responding to you.  All you are going to do is respond, "What do you want Fireball to do a gazillion damage?" even though reasonable alternatives have been suggested, which you completely ignored so you could imply I want Fireball to be better than Firestorm.

If perfect game balance is so important to you, despite the fact that this is a SINGLE-PLAYER RPG, then go play Pong.

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 19 avril 2011 - 08:03 .

[Roxlimn]

Fruit of the Doom:

And I said I wanted it to be as powerful as Firestorm where? Oh yeah, nowhere. So stop bring that comparison up, because it isn't what I am arguing. If you want to argue with a Straw Man, by all means make one and feel free to shout at it to your hearts content. I suggested some minor tweaks like a reduced AoE and cooldown, or reduced AoE and slightly increased damage, or just adding a physical force effect. Oh so unbalancing. Not to mention I suggested that you have to invest a point in it to get said bonuses.

I don't get why you'd want a smaller AoE. That'd make it harder to target more enemies in it - which makes it weaker.

I don't get why adding a physical force effect is necessary either. Wouldn't it make more sense to just increase the elemental force effect? What is the effect of an Elemental Force 5x? Per my observations, it seemed to momentarily pause Normals and Critters, apart from Fire Dance. I suggest we both test it out if you really want to substantiate that it doesn't really do anything.

You mean like Chain Lightning and Rock Armor? Two of the most useful spells in the game? And Winter's Grasp? All of which are leagues better than Fireball? Or even Fist of the Maker, which is still better than Fireball no matter how you try to nitpick about it.

Go away and argue with Grumpy Old Wizard. It's painfully obvious that you just don't want mages buffed at all for some (likely inane) reason. There's no other reason for you to be this ridiculously opposed to any changes to Fireball. You insist that you do want it buffed, but you have done nothing in this thread but oppose, demean, and troll anyone who suggests any changes to it. I don't care if an abomination killed your family or a mage stole your girlfriend. All this topic is about is the fact that Fireball is almost useless as it is, and could use some tweaking.

Putting "slightly more damage" to an almost useless spell won't make it significantly better.

Chain Lightning's main power is in its CCC, which is not a tier 1 pick. Up until it picks up the upgrade, Fireball is actually quite competitive with both it and Rock Armor, considering Fireball's higher chance to affect more targets.

Ditto for WG. It's got nice single target damage, but the money is really in the Brittle. In that sense, it's not leagues better than Fireball until you get the Blast upgrade and Elemental Mastery.

At the levels you get basic FotM, you can have Searing Fireball. SFireball will do considerably more damage than basic FotM if we factor in multipliers and size of AoE.

Don't argue that FotM is better than Fireball. I agree with that. It's pointless to argue with me about things we agree on. Seriously, dude. It's a game. Take off the hostility goggles. If you're not having fun with this discussion, step away from the keyboard and do something fun.

[Fruit of the Doom]

I am done arguing with your nonsense.

At this point you aren't really arguing for or against anything, just trying to find reasons to disagree with everything.

Go spam someone else's thread with your inanity.

[Roxlimn]

Wait, what? Didn't I JUST agree that Fist of the Maker was the more powerful spell? You're the OP, but you don't own the thread, man. If you don't want to discuss Fireball, feel free to abandon the thread.

[Fruit of the Doom]

Whoever said anything about abandoning the thread?

I am just done with your nonsense.

[Benchmark]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Whoever said anything about abandoning the thread?

I am just done with your nonsense.

Then you can enjoy mine. If you want to buff fireball you need to reduce the power of other spells like Wintersgrasp, Chain lightning, Stonefist, Spiritbolt, Fist of...etc etc etc  to balance the fact. In the mage trees there is no reason not to have both Primal and Elemental. It is only 16 skill points to get to the top tier abilities in both. You may have to cherry pick upgrades, until 20 skill points or so, but why not?

The only way you should make fireball stronger is if you made it mutually exclusive with the abilities it is currently balanced with. Want a Fireball that has the DPS of Chain Lightning? Sure thing, just make it impossible to get both.

[Jack-Nader]

lol... 7 pages later and it seems we are still not done here!

[Fruit of the Doom]

Benchmark wrote...

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Whoever said anything about abandoning the thread?

I am just done with your nonsense.

Then you can enjoy mine. If you want to buff fireball you need to reduce the power of other spells like Wintersgrasp, Chain lightning, Stonefist, Spiritbolt, Fist of...etc etc etc  to balance the fact. In the mage trees there is no reason not to have both Primal and Elemental. It is only 16 skill points to get to the top tier abilities in both. You may have to cherry pick upgrades, until 20 skill points or so, but why not?

The only way you should make fireball stronger is if you made it mutually exclusive with the abilities it is currently balanced with. Want a Fireball that has the DPS of Chain Lightning? Sure thing, just make it impossible to get both.

How about you simply bring Fireball up to par with Chain Lightning by simply exchanging the AoE upgrade for a CCC effect?

I don't see the logic of having a move directly inferior to another but at the same point in the skill tree.

Nor do I see the logic of requiring everything about a mage to be nerfed instead of simply increasing the damage of Fireball but decreasing the AoE.

Once again, you seem to be acting like the mage is somehow grossly overpowered as is and it would destabilize the entire game to increase a single damage multiplier by 0.3-0.5, even if the AoE of said attack was halved in exchange.

Otherwise, if you simply think the mage is perfect and nothing could possibly be improved then I really don't think this is the thread for you.

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 19 avril 2011 - 09:32 .

[Fruit of the Doom]

Filament wrote...

Probably because there are so many +fire items (vastly more than the amount of +electricity, etc items available), and the Pyromancer ability, so they didn't want to make it overpowered. It's weaker than Firestorm but easier to use with impunity because it doesn't lock an area down (on Nightmare) for 10 seconds.

It could be nice if it CCCed with Disorient like Walking Bomb does. Since they're both explosions and such. Makes sense.

The description also seems to indicate that it should send them flying. That it doesn't, I almost want to call a bug, rather than a balance issue. Or something they didn't feel like implementing later on, but couldn't be arsed to change the description.

Like I said earlier, I would be perfectly fine if the only change was adding a physical force effect to "send enemies flying" like the description says.  If that's not possible for whatever reason, a mild CCC bonus would be nice instead.

I am wondering if the bonus damage equipment/talents work as they say they do (or at least as we think they do), because when I take gear on and off and check the damage numbers it does not seem to increase by 10% like it says it should.  (testing spirit bolt with spirit enhancing necklace)

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 19 avril 2011 - 09:48 .

[jndiii]

As the wiki gets filled in there are some good numbers, and having compared some numbers with fully upgraded Fist of the Maker to fully upgraded Fireball, with +100% (roughly) fire gear and bonuses and playing with them on Hard difficulty, I believe the numbers are at least close to correct.

Damage
Fireball:  1.35x base, +100% damage talents & gear = 2.70x base total
FotM:  1.8x base, no damage bonuses (omitting CCC), = 1.8x base total
Winter's Grasp:  4.5x base, +50% damage talents & gear = 9.0x base total
CoC: 3.05x base, +50% damage talents & gear = 4.53x base total
Chain Lightning: 3.14x base, +50% damage talents & gear = 4.71x base total

I've omitted the DoT and single target damage spells.

In terms of spamming damage output, FotM will do roughly 33% more damage than fireball, firing twice as fast, but even then doesn't measure up to the other AoE effects in the game, even as one spends mana FOUR TIMES as fast as Fireball.  FotM is worth the talent points if you take advantage of the CCC, but don't rely on it as a primary damage source.

Compared with all other AoE spells, with typical +x% damage bonuses (assuming the player accumulates the items and talents to do so), Fireball is probably better than FotM, but mostly because FotM is expensive in terms of mana (such that being twice as fast becomes almost a liability, not an advantage) and talents.  FotM is mostly worthwhile by always being ready to take advantage of a CCC.

Other than FotM, Fireball is weak, with other relatively large AoEs (CoC, CL) doing more than twice as much damage, such that a +100% bonus doesn't quite catch up, and the bonuses for other elements have a proportionalty bigger payoff.  Given mana costs (30 for CoC and CL, vs FB's 20), it would appear that the damage output of fireball (including bonuses), is about on a par with the other spells.

So what makes fireball weak?  It's on a par, damage wise, and area-wise, but the elemental force special effect doesn't even begin to compare to setting up (CoC) or finishing off (CL) a CCC combo, nor does it compare to CoC's crowd control benefits.

So, I stand by my prior conclusion that it could use a bit more oomph.  Not a lot, just a bit.  Either more damage, better crowd control, or a CCC combo.  Perhaps have the Fireball upgrade add 0.4 or 0.5 x base damage.

[jndiii]

Filament wrote...

Another thing they could do is make it so fire spells do significant DoT again. I don't believe they do any, now? Even when the enemy fails the force check?

I like that option, too.

[Fruit of the Doom]

One other thing to note about FotM is that it ignores armor.

It's still fairly underwhelming aside from the knockdown effect without CCC though.

[Roxlimn]

jndiii:

Other than FotM, Fireball is weak, with other relatively large AoEs (CoC, CL) doing more than twice as much damage, such that a +100% bonus doesn't quite catch up, and the bonuses for other elements have a proportionalty bigger payoff. Given mana costs (30 for CoC and CL, vs FB's 20), it would appear that the damage output of fireball (including bonuses), is about on a par with the other spells.

CL's AoE is small, and the enemy target number is capped. Given your estimates, an optimized CL hits 5 targets within a 4 m size AoE can be approximated by a 10 m Fireball hitting 9 targets. Neither supposition can consistently be accomplished, but it is reasonable to suppose that Fireball, just by having a larger AoE, can hit about twice as much targets as a CL on average. This is applicable to CoC also. The close range and small AoE gets in the way of it hitting as many targets as Fireball, which has larger AoE and can be cast at range.

This makes it not on par but slightly stronger outside the CCC effect, given that it's competitive for damage at 66% of the manacost of similar spells.

CL's CCC effect goes for damage, but it is a targeted spell that has a secondary AoE component within a small area. It's got some utility, but not as much. A Fireball's larger AoE and native AoE means that it can be used to blast Assassins out of stealth - an invaluable counter move. CoC can be used for the same purpose, but its short range and small AoE means that using it for this purpose is more constrained. FotM is most similar to Fireball in this utility, and is generally superior so long as your mana holds out. For purposes of mana economy, it's more efficient to use Fireball to root out Assassins when it's feasible.

With this added consideration, I'm not really sure Fireball is all that weak. A more damaging Fireball as you suggest would be a top tier spell, available at tier one. The +0.4x damage output you suggest would make hands down the best non-combo spell option for damage, making it even more of a nobrainer than CL, which is already kind of a nobrainer.

Finally, we're comparing Fireball to top performing spells. There are other damage spells in the game. There's Spirit Bolt, Fist of Stone, Crushing Prison, and Horror/Despair.

[spacepopeadventures]

Roxlimn wrote...

With this added consideration, I'm not really sure Fireball is all that weak. A more damaging Fireball as you suggest would be a top tier spell, available at tier one.

You mean like Winter's Grasp?

Roxlimn wrote...

Finally, we're comparing Fireball to top performing spells. There are other damage spells in the game. There's Spirit Bolt, Fist of Stone, Crushing Prison, and Horror/Despair.

I think there's good reason to do that. These "top performing spells" are exactly as strong as a nuke ought to be. Or do you think they're too strong?

[Roxlimn]

spacepopeadvendures:

A more damaging Fireball would be stronger than Winter's Grasp, which is already a top tier spell. Some spell has to be top dog, but we can't base balance on topping the most powerful spell, even by just a smidgen. That leads to power creep.

I think there's good reason to do that. These "top performing spells" are exactly as strong as a nuke ought to be. Or do you think they're too strong?

I think CL's a little too strong for its position in the tree. There is some justification for its power, though, but I think Chain Reaction's level restriction might benefit from having it pushed a little higher. As it is, it's a little bit too desirable.

[spacepopeadventures]

Roxlimn wrote...

A more damaging Fireball would be stronger than Winter's Grasp, which is already a top tier spell.

I don't buy it. This would only be the case if Fireball were currently exactly as strong as Winter's Grasp--no more and no less. Is this your contention?

There has to be a point at which Fireball is *just as strong*. Not stronger. That is the point to which it ought to be buffed. It is not, currently, at that point, IMO.

I think CL's a little too strong for its position in the tree. There is some justification for its power, though, but I think Chain Reaction's level restriction might benefit from having it pushed a little higher. As it is, it's a little bit too desirable.

I can't agree. Unupgraded, it's just as good as it needs to be for when you get it. Upgraded, it's the gold standard for CCCs, yes, but that takes level 6 and two existing points in Primal. Just looking at "its position in the tree" is misleading.

I'd also argue that Stagger is just too easy to apply. Imagine if Chain worked off Disorient instead. Wouldn't seem so imba then, would it?

[SmokeyNinjas]

Seeing as Searing Fireball costs a third of the mana to cast compared to Apocalyptic Firestorm and isn't even as powerfull as a single hit from Apocalyptic Firestorm IMO its definitely underpowerd compared to the rest of the spells in the game & could use a little boost to bring it in line