64 réponses à ce sujet

[Ahisgewaya]

I don't think it's evil to defile the ashes at all and here is why:

1) You are helping one insane cult against another insane cult no matter how you look at it! Especially if you're a Dalish Elf, I can see a non evil person doing this. It is a symbol for the Chantry, and after you  beat the game after discovering it, pilgrims flock there in droves. It also "proves" the Chant is the truth to a lot of  less intelligent people (who don't realize that if Andraste was just a powerful mage, and since the temple was Full  to the brim with Lyrium as Oghren tells you, the ashes are quite possible without any Maker needed). This is the same religion that said to the elves "worship our god or die". And this is after the elves helped liberate  them from Tevinter. Once more pro-Chantry people get to Ferelden it is going to get very bad for both elves and mages. 

2) On the other hand, you're killing a dragon, a really interesting and majestic animal on the verge of extinction that is at least as intelligent as a dolphin and is only trying to survive, desptie the lunatic people around it. 

So could someone please explain to me why so many people think it is evil to defile the ashes?

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 01 avril 2011 - 11:08 .

[frostajulie]

Its a retarded quest, good or bad, were I me I would bag the lot of remains kill the guardian if they tried to stop me and made a killing on selling the ashes for gold keeping a substantial supply for myself and my companions.

[Assasin4Hire]

Was I the only one that felt like the cult was an interpritation of Islam?
They're essentialy preeching the next step of the Chantry religion if they're right that Andrastae was reincarnated as a dragon, like Muslims with Muhammad. I don't belive any proof comes forward that they're wrong.

If I'm supposed to think it's crazy that Andrastae has come back as a dragon, then it's just as crazy as Andrastae becoming the bride of the maker in the first place

[Ahisgewaya]

Alright, let's hold it right there.I don't want this topic locked, so please just talk about the topic and not Islam/Christianity/whatever (although that could be an interesting discussion, but this is not the place for such a discussion).

Other than that though, I agree with you Assassin4Hire. Especially with the second part of what you said.

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 01 avril 2011 - 11:48 .

[Xilizhra]

I think their main reasoning is that A: the Urn could be quite helpful for healing people (at least until it runs out), and B: the cultists are dangerous. Then there's the in-universe idea that it's a symbol of hope that the Maker might return to the world and defiling it is as bad as killing Andraste.

On the other hand, I also generally defile them, and don't think that it's evil as such.

[Tomomi]

Beside what those cultists preached, I found no other explanation of where that dragon came from. Dragons are supposed to be extinct at this age.

Regardless of who says what, I think defiling the ash is inherently evil. Dalish worships the old gods, while the rest of the world worships the Maker and Andraste as his deliverance. I think Bioware did a fantastic job in relating a fictional world to the harsh reality of the world. I am not going to Islam or Christianity, but the morale of the story is:

- No matter what you choose to believe, or not believe, it matters little to others. People stand by their faith, and will do anything to defend it because it is their guidance and spiritual support that carry them all this time. It is best to respect that belief from others, as you hope for them to respect yours. The cultists may carry things a tad too far, but religion itself is not at fault.

- People interpret religions differently. Unlike laws or others, there is no solid copy for you to compare to, to enforce, nor to even verify. From time to time, there are agencies or organizations who stand out with much credibility to shape religious teachings into more vivid understandings, and more standardized and applicable to modern day's culture. But look, the Chantry, or the Cultist, all have their claims. And who else can verify or prove them wrong one way or another? They are also humans, with beliefs, stubbornness, ambitions, malice, etc... But just because a few Holy mothers went rogue, or certain Cultists twisting religions to their own will, it is not enough to discredit that religion as a fluke.

Andraste herself maybe just another person who happens to be there at the right time and right place, if you want to look at it that way. She did something, and many generations later people retell her stories in different versions, and we simply have no way to verify without a time machine. A group of people decided that she is of something holy, and worth worshiping, who are we to say otherwise? True, you may not have to worship her, but that does not mean you should consider defiling her ash and call it "OK to do". Once again, it may be just ashes to you, but to others (and a lot of others) it means a whole lot more to them.

So no matter how we look at it, just because some people that went against popular belief (thus earn the title Cultist), they may have come from a true and noble group of priests a few generations back. And here we decide Andraste is bad.

[errant_knight]

I'd say it's stupid, if not evil. They heal people--it doesn't really matter why. There's more value in that than in whatever a dubious cult might have to offer.

[Ahisgewaya]

errant_knight wrote...

I'd say it's stupid, if not evil. They heal people--it doesn't really matter why. There's more value in that than in whatever a dubious cult might have to offer.

Lots of things heal people. Mages heal people. That didn't stop me from killing the blood mages in the circle tower though (as they attacked me and were killing people). The ashes lead to a lot more Chantry people in the area whom have historically been opposed to elves (which is what my character is in this playthrough). It's not to hard for my character to guess what will happen. (plus there's the whole vengance factor)

Plus the dragon has shown quite a bit of restraint considering I have invaded its territory and may have killed some of its young. 

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 02 avril 2011 - 01:07 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Yes, it is the most evil thing in the world. More evil than Blights. If you defile the ashes, the Maker will inflict a plague of boils upon your Warden's neither-regions. The Chantry says so.

But other than that, it would really depend on your Warden. Certain Wardens would have more reasons than others to decide to defile them.

[The Almighty Ali]

Well it would be equal to finding the remains of Jesus and decide to urinate upon it.

...Bioware, Why couldn't we have the Warden urinate upon the ashes?
Imagine the hilarious dialogue when you return to camp.

[errant_knight]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

I'd say it's stupid, if not evil. They heal people--it doesn't really matter why. There's more value in that than in whatever a dubious cult might have to offer.

Lots of things heal people. Mages heal people. That didn't stop me from killing the blood mages in the circle tower though (as they attacked me and were killing people). The ashes lead to a lot more Chantry people in the area whom have historically been opposed to elves (which is what my character is in this playthrough). It's not to hard for my character to guess what will happen. (plus there's the whole vengance factor)

Plus the dragon has shown quite a bit of restraint considering I have invaded its territory and may have killed some of its young. 

The ashes heal things that nothing else will, so...still not very bright and an enormous waste.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I agree with Errant. I find it a tremendous waste, of both a magical item and a political / economic opportunity. With very little in return to compensate unless one has completely different priorities.

But I don't think it's "evil" no.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 02 avril 2011 - 03:38 .

[Lugwy]

It has more uses intact than defiled.

That said, the act of defiling the ashes is a fairly petty act at best.

If privacy is needed, then the dragon will be spared. It is an optional fight, after all.

Modifié par Lugwy, 02 avril 2011 - 03:52 .

[errant_knight]

I never kill the dragon. I just seems so...unnecessary.

[Ahisgewaya]

The Almighty Ali wrote...

Well it would be equal to finding the remains of Jesus and decide to urinate upon it.

No, it's more like if you are a witch who's family got burned who just found the Holy Grail during the Inquisition. And who then decides to destroy it. But like I said, please do not speak of real world religions but in-game ones.

Anyway, I wish there was a way to trick the cultists into teaching you the reaver specialization by lying to them about what you did to the ashes. This is because the only thing I see wrong with defiling the ashes is they are the remains of a person. 

And it's not a stupid thing to do, I already said why it would be in the best interests of elves and mages to have the ashes destroyed. And smart people tend to not insult random strangers over their decisions in a game.

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 02 avril 2011 - 06:26 .

[errant_knight]

Uh...if you didn't want to hear other opinions, why did you ask?

[Ahisgewaya]

errant_knight wrote...

Uh...if you didn't want to hear other opinions, why did you ask?

I do want to hear other opinions, but I would like you to have more to add to the conversation than "you're just stupid".

Such as adressing my points on why it would be a good idea and not stupid at all for an elf to defile the ashes (or at least make them inaccessable).

Essentially I am at that point in the game and I've decided that if I was actually there, I would have a long discussion/debate with all of my companions (not just three of them) about the pros and cons of defiling the ashes. Since I can't do that in-game, I'd like to know what other people on the forums think about it (from both sides of the issue). 

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 02 avril 2011 - 06:31 .

[errant_knight]

Well, I told you why I think it would be foolish for any PC to defile the ashes, elven or otherwise. I can't even see Morrigan thinking it's a sensible notion. Sorry if that wasn't the answer you're looking for.

[Ahisgewaya]

errant_knight wrote...

Well, I told you why I think it would be foolish for any PC to defile the ashes, elven or otherwise. I can't even see Morrigan thinking it's a sensible notion. Sorry if that wasn't the answer you're looking for.

And yet Morrigan does think it's a sensible notion. 

So please, tell me why you think it's a stupid idea in light of what I told you about how it would help the elven cause for the ashes to be destroyed. I'm not looking for an answer I am looking for discussion. It is in the elves best interest for something that would give so much power and firmness of belief to their enemies to be destroyed. 

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 02 avril 2011 - 06:45 .

[danerman]

I don't think it's evil. I agree the ashes could be a source of income for the entrepreneurial warden but to me that reaks of opportunism, not noble characteristics. I also think in the current situation of the blight and the makeup of the personality of some of your most indispensable companions, defiling the urn does more harm than good in the short run. However, in the long run it's absolutely the right thing to do in my mind. As far as the healing powers of the urn being wasted, I do not believe that once the cat is out of the bag, that those healing powers would be used for good. They'd get into the wrong hands(namely the Chantry) and be used for the wrong reasons. They'd "prove" Andraste was the bride of the maker to the common person and they'd strengthen the propaganda of the Chantry. In the end they would further justify the segregation of the elves and the locking up of mages into Towers. Also I think the Chantry would use the ashes to make an even bigger power grab on Thedas. With the "proof" of the ashes and even more powerful armies the Chantry could get their hands on, they'd quite likely go on an exalted march to wipe out the "false" religions. The Dalish Elves and the Dwarves would be very likely targets. You can also forget about any freedoms being given to the Circle of Magi. I think in the current state of the Dragon Age universe, there is a glimmer of hope and slight movement toward more mage independence as seen by the high regard shown to First Enchanter Irving. But with the ashes and the almost certain strengthening they would give to the Chantry's position, the mages can forget any reforms taking place for quite a long time.

[errant_knight]

Okay, then. My first reason aside, I still think it's a bad idea. If people were to find out that an elf had destroyed their most precious and revered relic, it would bring the whole country down on the elves, Chantry and populace alike. They would not just be the second class citizens they are, but would be universally hated. There would be little practical gain, and an enormous downside. It's almost begging for a second exalted march against the elves which they would have no ability to fight off. It wouldn't help their cause, it would hinder it, and could well result in their complete anihilation, not only in Ferelden, but everywhere.

[Lugwy]

When you say "elves", do you mean all elves? All of them? 

Perhaps there is a faction of pointy-eared pansies who will celebrate a holiday of defiling Andraste's relics, but you can't deny that the ashes do have a miraculous effect, enough to give pragmatists pause. This is not including the majority of elves, who probably just don't care.

[danerman]

I don't think destroying the ashes is likely to cause the Chantry to do an exalted march. They have very little proof the ashes were found and that they were destroyed. If brother Genetivi or any members or former members of your party started spouting out this story, they'd be ridiculed as being crazy. The biggest mystery would be the healing of the Arl Emmon but that could be explained away with more "rational" explantations. The Chantry currently does not think the Urn is likely to be found and Genetivi ideas are seen as somewhat heretical. So they are unlikely to believe stories the Urn was found but defiled. Especially by the hero of Ferelden, the one that ends up ending the fifth blight.

Modifié par danerman, 02 avril 2011 - 07:48 .

[Hallusinaatti]

I don't see a purpose in assisting a cult with only like 10 living members by the time you get there. I rather just let tourists ruin the ashes, not my problem.

[Ahisgewaya]

errant_knight wrote...

Okay, then. My first reason aside, I still think it's a bad idea. If people were to find out that an elf had destroyed their most precious and revered relic, it would bring the whole country down on the elves, Chantry and populace alike. They would not just be the second class citizens they are, but would be universally hated. There would be little practical gain, and an enormous downside. It's almost begging for a second exalted march against the elves which they would have no ability to fight off. It wouldn't help their cause, it would hinder it, and could well result in their complete anihilation, not only in Ferelden, but everywhere.

First of all, there's no reason for the PC to advertise the fact that he or she defiled the ashes. Your character is a hero and beyond reproach, so no one would know who did it, especially consdering there's a dragon and a crazy cult guarding the ashes, so no one will likely ever get there again. Secondly, the elves are already universally hated. Unless something drastic happens it will be only a matter of time before they are wiped out. Finally, with the ashes the Chantry is more easily able to recruit soldiers, which will lead to more exalted marches. Because that is what the Chantry does. They are evil with a capital E. 

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 02 avril 2011 - 12:20 .