64 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

There's a big difference between looked down on and genocide. Why would the Chantry be able to recruit more soldiers with the ashes? People already believe. I really don't understand why you think destroying the ashes would have a positive effect. If no one believes that Eamon was cured of them or that they were found, what's the point in destroying them? If the hypothetical elf advertises it for demoralization, there'll be a slaughter.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

What I am more interested in, is what exactly does the dragon's blood do to the ashes specifically that causes them to change. I mean, it causes some very fundemental change to the ashes if it can remove their healing powers and cause the guardian to go insane, as opposaed to say, just urinating upon them. There is some sort of unique power in dragon's blood, if it gives the reavers and cultists special abilities. I think the ashes are changed, but not nullified. Just transformed into something else, their power also mutating.

be nice to know what exactly happens physically and chemically, to the ashes if you defile them, and what, if any, power they would possess afterwards.

[danerman]

You could try to keep them a secret which is usually my solution due to the practicality of not wanting to lose Liliana and Wynne but it's not the best solution. If the ashes still exist they can be found again and the rumors of the Arl  may inspire new searches for the ashes. But defiling the ashes completely eliminates the threat that they could ever get in the hands of the Chantry

If the Chantry had their hands on the ashes they would get even more people believing and have even more power. Also the people that currently believe would have their faith bolstered, some who may not in the past have went so far as to fight and die for the chantry may now with this conformation of faith take up the fight. Also the army the Chantry does have would be much more powerful if they had the Urn of Sacred Ashes to cure wounded templars and soldiers during an exalted march.

Modifié par danerman, 02 avril 2011 - 04:18 .

[danerman]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

What I am more interested in, is what exactly does the dragon's blood do to the ashes specifically that causes them to change. I mean, it causes some very fundemental change to the ashes if it can remove their healing powers and cause the guardian to go insane, as opposaed to say, just urinating upon them. There is some sort of unique power in dragon's blood, if it gives the reavers and cultists special abilities. I think the ashes are changed, but not nullified. Just transformed into something else, their power also mutating.

be nice to know what exactly happens physically and chemically, to the ashes if you defile them, and what, if any, power they would possess afterwards.

That is a very interesting question.  I got the impression that it ruins the healing power of the ashes but not sure if any other powers are added or not.   I would be very interested to know if the defiled ashes have any power.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

danerman wrote...


That is a very interesting question.  I got the impression that it ruins the healing power of the ashes but not sure if any other powers are added or not.   I would be very interested to know if the defiled ashes have any power.

Yeah. That's pretty much what I was thinking about. While the ashes' "normal" healing powers might be ruined, I am thinking that they simply do not become magically dead or inert, but are transformed into something else.

I'd personally like to know what exactly those corrupted, mutated powers are. The corrupted ashes could posses powers of their own that could find other applications instead of healing or miracles. Maybe even something dark or nefarious. Which, depending on what that power was, could still make them useful for other purposes, provided one could get around the cult to check them out.

[Verly]

I do not understand why you would think a Dalish elf would want to defile the ashes. It was not only magic that she fought, she also fought to free the slaves. She was not the one that did anything wrong. The Dalish fought with her. If you ask the story teller he will say that they thank her for what she did, but they do not worship her or her god. I've always played my Dalish to respect the other religions (as I count the dwarven belief as a religion too) because she would want the others to respect hers. My Dalish might not have asked to be Gray Warden's but it was done. They try to get the humans to understand the Dalish, not make the situation worse.

Plus, it just doesn't make since to me. You do not have to kill the dragon. that keeps the ashes from being used by the Chantry, but then again my Dalish see the ashes cure a man close to death with their own eyes. Even if it is only very strong magic...they have something in them that is a wonderful thing.
on the other hand they can choose to do the bidding of a small group of mad people that have some sort of pleasure and glee in killing harmless people that want them to poor blood into the ashes of a woman that once fought to set the elves free.

[Xilizhra]

Who Andraste was is irrelevant; she's dead. The Ashes are a symbol of power for the Chantry now.

[danerman]

The Water God wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Who Andraste was is irrelevant; she's dead. The Ashes are a symbol of power for the Chantry now.

Umm no Andraste is  a symbol to non enslaved elves. The Ashes have nothing to do with the chantry sorry.

Um, I think they have everything to do with the Chantry.  It's the Chantry that controls the official story of Andraste and its the Chantry's version of the story that'd be justified in most common peoples' minds if the ashes were found.   Also the Chantry would claim dominion over the ashes and no one would argue the point with them.  They could use them to strenghten their armies during an exalted march essecially making their armies almost unbeatable.  I almost think Andraste herself would want her ashes destroyed at this point.  I know she'd hate to have this power used in the hands of people spreading fear in her name.  I don't think she'd see much difference between the Chantry and the Imperium who she fought against.  The Chantry basically replaced the Imperium as far as who has power in Thedas and like the Who said, "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.:"

[TBastian]

To reliably discuss "evil" one must establish a few points of reference.

1) Destroying powerful healing magic is "evil", especially one that is "good"-aligned. If DA:3 doesn't come out part of the reason may be that the whole Arl Eamon thing happens all over again and this time, no Andraste ashes. Mass genocide, world ends, enter Dungeon Age:Origins.
2) Defiling the remains of someone who most probably saved everyone's grandpappies at some point... "evil".
3) The Chantry identifying itself strongly with Andraste is one thing. Don't presume that Andraste would have condoned questionable Chantry practices like Lyrium use. Notice how the ashes were kept hidden even from the Chantry. This is basically a "sins of another" scenario. Would you kill a child for causing the death of his/her mother? Would you defile Andraste's ashes because she happened to inspire the Chantry into being?
4) Symbol talk. Bottomline, "evil".
5) Etc.

There are only a handful of logical reasons why anyone intelligent (and reasonably sane) would willingly defile Andraste's ashes - the most prominent would be because he/she didn't think his/her reasons through (the "evil-ness" of ignorance is open to debate). For most everyhing else, evil has nothing to do with it. Stealing it > Defiling it. Exploiting it > Defiling it. Hell even eating it > Defiling it. Luckily, stupidity is widely believed to be a neutral thing.
One last thing... personal reasons. Hooray for RPG's ("Yes. Andraste was actually my great grand aunt twice removed and she DID tell me to destroy her ashes in a dream.") and the fact that "evil" is a relative thing, and you might have actually done something "good" there.

Modifié par TBastian, 04 avril 2011 - 06:12 .

[asaiasai]

I do not think the ahses had any real power, it as Sten suggests is just a dustbin. I think as you work your way through the temple especially where you answer the spectre's riddles if you notice on a correct answer they all seem to streak toward the dustbin. I do not think the ashes had or have any real power, the temple is where the power is and as you progress through the temple pass the tribulations you release the accumulated magic until it is concentrated or focused in the pinch of ashes you bring back for Eamon.

Power does not come from a religious artifact, it comes from those who believe that the religious artifact has power. So in this case the ashes are only necessary as a catalyst or host to accumulate the power for use on site or for portablilty. So you take your pinch of ashes and with them the concentrated magic of the temple with you. Having defused the temple of it's magic the remaining ashes while they may or may not be the actual ashes of Andraste, are just dirt at this point.

Did the maker create man in his own image or did man create the Maker in the image he hopes to attain? Is it really a defilement to pour dragon blood on the dirt that depends on how you feel about the people who will certainly react to it. If you, as i do, care for Wynne and Leliana (my 2 favorite and the most usefull of ALL characters in DAO just MHO) choose to defile the ashes to provoke a reaction or generate an excuse to kill them out right i would consider it evil because it is hurtful to others especially if those others are those you care about.

For me good or evil is all about context. To purposefully provoke a negative reaction from someone is evil if there is no other purpose than to be hurtfull, or mean. It is how ever possible to provoke a negative reaction and still be good if one uses it for teaching purposes, but as there is nothing to teach here other than teaching what an inconsiderate bastard you can be i would say it is bad.

We have all done it once just to unlock the reaver class but i can tell you that that play with out Wynne or Leliana was the least enjoyable experience having to play with out my Wynne and Leliana. Of my 22 characters and completed games of DAO this single experience to unlock the reaver class was my most disliked of plays. Sure it is possible to save defile the ashes to unlock the reaver class and then reload but i consider that cheating so i took my lumps finished the play and will not do that again. For me playing DAO without Wynne or Leliana was pointless as i did not enjoy the experience so alot of what i do and did was based upon the characters i preffered to use and needed to keep happy to contribute to the party mechanic which depended on the build of my PC.

Asai

[danerman]

@asai
I do care about Leliana and Wynne and I believe that they are the most useful of all of your companions. That is the only reason almost all of my characters do not defile the Urn of Sacred Ashes. As far as the ashes not having real power except in the temple and only to the person who goes through the gauntlet that is an interesting theory. It is possible that is true and it'd be great if it was but I cannot be sure that is true.

@TBastian. Not sure if there'd be another person whose sick and needs the ashes in DA3 but the ashes remained undisturbed for centuries and the Dragon Age world went on without them. I think overall the world is better off without them than with them, the power they hold is too great and there is too much risk they'd be used for the wrong reasons. The chantry at this point is who would most likely get control of them but really if anyone evil had control of that kind of power it'd be very bad and it's just too easy for the ashes to fall in the wrong hands. I do see the point of saying its evil to defile a persons ashes in general especially someone who did so much for the people of Thedas. But in this case because of who I think Andraste really was(a freedom fighter who wanted to overthrow the Imperium), I think she'd understand and endorse her own ashes being defiled to keep them away from the Chantry. They were hidden but even if you try to keep them hidden longer, the cat might be out of the bag now. Though most of my characters do not defile the ashes. They just kill brother Genetivi so he will not rat out the ashes location and hope for the best.

Modifié par danerman, 04 avril 2011 - 04:01 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

TBastian wrote...

1) Destroying powerful healing magic is "evil", especially one that is "good"-aligned. If DA:3 doesn't come out part of the reason may be that the whole Arl Eamon thing happens all over again and this time, no Andraste ashes. Mass genocide, world ends, enter Dungeon Age:Origins.

Destroying powerful healing magic is not "evil" if that healing magic is going to be used on "evil" or dangerous/stupid people.

As far as the rest, that's about the weakest arguement I've heard yet. You do understand plot device/game mechanic, do you not? Eamon is only vital because the game demands he be vital. Logically, there were a number of other solutions to Loghain and the Landsmeet, for plot and gameplay purposes, you could only follow one: Eamon. However, outside the game, I could think of many other scenarios, many which would have turned out better, in dealing with the Blight.

2) Defiling the remains of someone who most probably saved everyone's grandpappies at some point... "evil".

No. For starters, Andraste is dead. It's a matter of whether or not you find defiling graves or corpses, for whatever reason, evil. And she did not save "everyone's" grandpapy. Andraste's crusade means jack sh*t if you are a dwarf. And if you are a mage...well, intended or not, Andraste's crusade made certain your grandpappy and yourself would be locked up and dehumanized, or outright murdered for simply being born as you were.

So no, again, I would not count this as "evil".

3) The Chantry identifying itself strongly with Andraste is one thing. Don't presume that Andraste would have condoned questionable Chantry practices like Lyrium use. Notice how the ashes were kept hidden even from the Chantry. This is basically a "sins of another" scenario. Would you kill a child for causing the death of his/her mother? Would you defile Andraste's ashes because she happened to inspire the Chantry into being?

Like I said before, Andraste is D-E-A-D. Her ashes might possess some sort of magic power, but Andraste and her followers? Dead for centuries. It isn't even in the same league as killing a child over the sins of a parent. You are basically defiling a symbol, an inanimate object with magic power. Furthermore, the rest of the Chantry generally believes them to be a myth, as do many worshipers. Destroying them doesn't harm the Chantry, since the Chantry pretty much functions without them.

Of course, I agree, defiling the ashes out of spite is about the lamest reason to do so, though I don't consider it "evil" but an act of juvinile vandalism. But you are wrong if you think anti Chantry sentiment is the only reason for defiling the ashes, you are sadly mistaken.

4) Symbol talk. Bottomline, "evil".

Yawn. Please tell me you are joking. Symbolism, like anything is subjective and varying.

5) Etc.

Though so. <_<

There are only a handful of logical reasons why anyone intelligent (and reasonably sane) would willingly defile Andraste's ashes - the most prominent would be because he/she didn't think his/her reasons through (the "evil-ness" of ignorance is open to debate). For most everyhing else, evil has nothing to do with it. Stealing it > Defiling it. Exploiting it > Defiling it. Hell even eating it > Defiling it. Luckily, stupidity is widely believed to be a neutral thing.
One last thing... personal reasons. Hooray for RPG's ("Yes. Andraste was actually my great grand aunt twice removed and she DID tell me to destroy her ashes in a dream.") and the fact that "evil" is a relative thing, and you might have actually done something "good" there.

I'll give you reasons why a "sane" or "Logical" character might defile the ashes.

1. Your character believes the dragon to be divine, powerful, or otherwise worthy of worship. People dismiss the cultists out of hand, without realizing that damned near every major world religion, and even Andrastism, started out as a cult whose ideas were considered bizarre, perverse, or generally unacceptable and dangerous to various societies they formed in. The dragon cultists generally are content to exist in their little Haven, and don't bother anyone...unless people start coming to harrass them.

And personally, I don't think worshiping a high dragon, which is an ancient and powerful creature that can be interacted with, is anymore silly that worshiping an invisible supreme being, an "absentee father figure" as Morrigan called him, especially since that being, if he exists, has made no attempt to interact with the world, or provide proof of his existance to anyone beyond the occasional crazy prophet or revolutionary. The Tevinters Imperium in its height worshiped dragon gods, and regardless of what one thinks of them morally or ethically, they were for centuries the most powerful empire in Thedas. Even now, none of the nations of Thedas have ever achieved the influence, size, and power of the Old Imperium. And great empires are not built and run by crazy, delusional people.

So in effect, a character or person can decide the defile the ashes if they believe the dragon to be a divine being, Andraste or other. And I really don't think that makes a person anymore delusional than an Andrastian fire worshiper, or someone like Leliana who here's voices from "the Maker". One of my characters defiled the ashes for this reason. She was a blood mage, and while she held the Chantry in contempt, she actually liked the cult, was impressed by the dragon, and felt if there was anything deserving of worship, it was the new and improved "Andraste",

2. The character wants the powers of the dragons blood. Your character has already seen what the cultists reavers can do, and since your character is fighting the Blight, they are looking for any advantage or power they can get to defeat the Blight. Defeating the Blight trumps all other things at that point. If you are playing a dedicated, but ruthless Warden, learning the secrets and powers of the reaver can be seen as gaining a signifigant advantage and boost to fight darkspawn more effectively. Thus, it would, for some Wardens, be the most sensible thing to do. My dwarf noble chose this route. Humans and their beliefs were of no consequence: she was fully dedicated to the Blight by any means necessary, and as a warrior, wanted to harness the talents and abilities of the dragons blood to help her in an already tight, and desperate situation.

3. The character has no strong beliefs either way about the Chantry or cultists, but really does not wish to kill off the cultists.. If defiling the ashes lets them get out of there with minimal bloodshed, (killing the Guardian and ash wraiths, since they are all spirits, does not count), then its no problem. They got what they needed, to cure Eamon with, they just wish to leave. If the cultists want their ashes and their dragon, they can have them.

There are other reasons one can think of for defiling the ashes that are not petty or silly (depending on perspective) but those are the three off the top of my head.

[Giggles_Manically]

I killed the cultists and their giant lizard mostly so I could have the perfect chance to yell:
WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW!!!!!!!

[pprrff]

I agree whole heartily with the OP, there is nothing evil about defiling the ash for someone who doesn't believe in the chantry or the maker. Unless you are a devote Andrastian, I don't see anything sacred about the ash. The chantry is just a big sham anyway, the only difference between it and the cultist is chantry is more successful in spreading it's lie. Even if you consider what they do to mages as a necessary evil, what do you think will happen if someone went to town square and start to denounce the maker? I'm sure the templar will not be any kinder to him/her should they start to gather a following. Anyway, my warden gladly takes any opportunity to give the finger to the chantry.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Interestingly, both of my canons defiled the ashes, and ended up killing the cultists. And neither were Chantry lovers. My lesser cannon, my HN rogue, was apathetic towards Andrastism and someone suspicous of the Chantry, and my human mage prime canon (non blood mage) hated the Chantry more than any of my other characters, including my blood mage.

Though my mage made sure no one else found out about the ashes. She still did not defile them, and not because she wanted them to help people, either.

[Giggles_Manically]

My pro-Fereldan human noble kept it.

Mostly to give the finger to Orlais.
YEAH! We are the birth place and resting place of the maker's chosen biatch.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

My pro-Fereldan human noble kept it.

Mostly to give the finger to Orlais.
YEAH! We are the birth place and resting place of the maker's chosen biatch.

Yeah, so did mine. She even liked Zevran's idea of charging admission. She thinks a holy souvenier trinket shop would be a good idea for a business partnership. Maybe Anders will come by and buy a piece of Andraste's shin bone and a t-shirt that says "I've been flamed by an angry dragon, guilt tripped by spirits, and forced to trust my friends to get me through a crackheads version of Towers of Hannoi just to see some holy dustbin, and all I got was this lousy t-shirt."

[TBastian]

Destroying powerful healing magic is not "evil" if that healing magic is going to be used on "evil" or dangerous/stupid people.

The statement assumes that ashes would work on them. The nature of the magic behind the ashes, whatever it is, is good-aligned. "Good" is pretty well defined in the game, considering the inhabitants of the world where all magic in the game is drawn from are only either malevolent or benign.

As far as the rest, that's about the weakest arguement I've heard yet. You do understand plot device/game mechanic, do you not? Eamon is only vital because the game demands he be vital. Logically, there were a number of other solutions to Loghain and the Landsmeet, for plot and gameplay purposes, you could only follow one: Eamon. However, outside the game, I could think of many other scenarios, many which would have turned out better, in dealing with the Blight.

And your presumptious arguments are any better? The world of DA:O is as chaotic and confusing as the real one, since the developers took great pains to  add "realism" to the game. Why is it that your manner implies that you know more about the world of DA:O than any other gamer who has devoted hours into game? Are you a game developer in disguise, by any chance? Given the topic, who cares about story elements? The lore behind the ashes is as shady as Flemeth's origins.

No. For starters, Andraste is dead. It's a matter of whether or not
you find defiling graves or corpses, for whatever reason, evil.

Then you don't mind if the corpse of someone you love is mutilated for the sake of an insane cult's god? Tell me now. Because Andraste is a symbol of good for many people.

And she
did not save "everyone's" grandpapy. Andraste's crusade means jack sh*t
if you are a dwarf. And if you are a mage...well, intended or not,
Andraste's crusade made certain your grandpappy and yourself would be
locked up and dehumanized, or outright murdered for simply being born as
you were.

The magic word here is "probably". -We do not know- what would have happened if Andraste didn't come along, although there's a good chance the dwarves and their caverns could have fallen to the Imperium. You presume to know. Care to cite your sources?
Andraste, by all accounts, was a good person. I do not know how she would have dealt with non-Imperium mages. You seem to know. Sources please? The CHANTRY is responsible for "locking up and dehumanizing" of mages. The do it in Andraste's name, but let me spell it out for you specifically - ANDRASTE != (not equal) CHANTRY.

Yawn. Please tell me you are joking. Symbolism, like anything is subjective and varying.

Name me a non-insane faction in-game that does not see Andraste as a symbol of good. Try it.

1. Your character believes the dragon to be divine, powerful, or
otherwise worthy of worship. People dismiss the cultists out of hand,
without realizing that damned near every major world religion, and even
Andrastism, started out as a cult whose ideas were considered bizarre,
perverse, or generally unacceptable and dangerous to various societies
they formed in. The dragon cultists generally are content to exist in
their little Haven, and don't bother anyone...unless people start coming
to harrass them.

And personally, I don't think worshiping a
high dragon, which is an ancient and powerful creature that can be
interacted with, is anymore silly that worshiping an invisible supreme
being, an "absentee father figure" as Morrigan called him, especially
since that being, if he exists, has made no attempt to interact with the
world, or provide proof of his existance to anyone beyond the
occasional crazy prophet or revolutionary. The Tevinters Imperium in its
height worshiped dragon gods, and regardless of what one thinks of them
morally or ethically, they were for centuries the most powerful empire
in Thedas. Even now, none of the nations of Thedas have ever achieved
the influence, size, and power of the Old Imperium. And great empires
are not built and run by crazy, delusional people.

So in effect,
a character or person can decide the defile the ashes if they believe
the dragon to be a divine being, Andraste or other. And I really don't
think that makes a person anymore delusional than an Andrastian fire
worshiper, or someone like Leliana who here's voices from "the Maker".
One of my characters defiled the ashes for this reason. She was a blood
mage, and while she held the Chantry in contempt, she actually liked the
cult, was impressed by the dragon, and felt if there was anything
deserving of worship, it was the new and improved "Andraste",

IE, join the cult of dragon, which everyone else thinks is insane. Wonderful. If you lack the mental capacity to see through the... odd... workings of the cult, that's your problem. Ignorance, as they say, is bliss.

2. The character wants the powers of the dragons blood. Your character
has already seen what the cultists reavers can do, and since your
character is fighting the Blight, they are looking for any advantage or
power they can get to defeat the Blight. Defeating the Blight trumps all
other things at that point. If you are playing a dedicated, but
ruthless Warden, learning the secrets and powers of the reaver can be
seen as gaining a signifigant advantage and boost to fight darkspawn
more effectively. Thus, it would, for some Wardens, be the most sensible
thing to do. My dwarf noble chose this route. Humans and their beliefs
were of no consequence: she was fully dedicated to the Blight by any
means necessary, and as a warrior, wanted to harness the talents and
abilities of the dragons blood to help her in an already tight, and
desperate situation.

Dragon's blood vs the fact that the no cultist has ever been able to penetrate the mere guardian of the cult's defenses, and the fact that the ashes' power transcends normal magical means. Geeee...

3. The character has no strong beliefs either way about the Chantry or
cultists, but really does not wish to kill off the cultists.. If
defiling the ashes lets them get out of there with minimal bloodshed,
(killing the Guardian and ash wraiths, since they are all spirits, does
not count), then its no problem. They got what they needed, to cure
Eamon with, they just wish to leave. If the cultists want their ashes
and their dragon, they can have them.

What kind fo sick twisted "good" mind would let a cult who has been killing people who have gone after the ashes for... centuries?, who corrupts everything around them in the name of their god and  whoo utright kills anyone who refuses to share their beliefs, go free? How can a "good", sane, intelligent character even consider such a thing?

Modifié par TBastian, 05 avril 2011 - 12:50 .

[Ahisgewaya]

Well, I decided not to defile the ashes, out of respect for what Andraste did for the elves (before her followers enslaved them again) and because it is a dead body, and my Dalish has respect for the dead. He did kill Genetivi though, since he insisted that he would tell everyone about the ashes location. That made me feel a little bad, but not as bad as the possibility of the Chantry gaining more power.

TBastian, nothing in this game is "good aligned". This isn't DnD. There might not even be a "Maker" which would make Andraste a really powerful, really crazy mage. As far as schools of magic go the ashes would be powerful creation magic, nothing more.

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 05 avril 2011 - 12:24 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Ahisgewaya wrote...
TBastian, nothing in this game is "good aligned". This isn't DnD. There might not even be a "Maker" which would make Andraste a really powerful, really crazy mage. As far as schools of magic go the ashes would be powerful creation magic, nothing more.

This. DA isn't D&D. There is not alignment, not in concept or game mechanics. Magic and religion in Thedas are two completely morally neutral concepts.

[TBastian]

And you know that for fact because? Sources please.